We have been more virus and germ conscious than krishna conscious.
I have a feeling that devotees will be encouarged to buy masks from the wailana store.
Same way we bought all Yoga material from them.
The fear of viruses was never about caring for devotees.
It was about protecting the pure devotees.
If uou got sick then you could not easily do your service to butler and stay awake till 3 am.
The person does not count. If they die of a virus who gives a damn. Lala land.
Free form birth back to Krishna.
But if you miss few days of your service all hell breaks loose.
You know how this cult works. Most devotees only care about their own families and all care about guru and mrs.
I guess they must feel less awkward. All that they have been doing for decades is finally a global ritual.
The earth is now under butler style quarantine. They have had amazing training.

Run Forest Run. Thanks for the article on the mantra. I am glad the article I shared helped.
Could you please tell me a bit about your journey if you do not mind?
If it is private I totally respect that.
Sorry if you have already spoken about it. Just send me back to that post if this is the case.
How was your experiences different at Iskcon versus SOI?
How come you guys switched to SoI or was it the opposite?
Thanks for your contribution. I feel very grateful for all of you.
It has been very helpful to find people who understand and can see the ugly truth.

Truth wins Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Same way we bought all Yoga material from them.
> The fear of viruses was never about caring for
> devotees.
> It was about protecting the pure devotees.
> If uou got sick then you could not easily do your
> service to butler and stay awake till 3 am.
> The person does not count. If they die of a virus
> who gives a damn. Lala land.
> Free form birth back to Krishna.

Yeah, that's the basic rule. To protect pure devotees who are not attached to matter, lest their bodies die, stay here longer, and enlighten others. These others may die. There is no need for them to stay in their bodies. They are not that important. The presence of the enlightener is more important than the enlightened one ...

The Liberated must stay, the enslaved can go.

My story mirrors Ian's. I started in butler's cult, his gurukula, moved through 4 to 5 others gaudiya groups including ISKCON.

Run Forest Run, this is quite an adventure. This is uncredible.
I did not know that some were going from one group to the other.
I was so stupid I thought the only option was Iskcon. And besides at the time I was internally brainwashed.
I did not even think of looking elsewhee. I just felt that this is as good as it gets.
If you write a book about your experiences, I will for sure read it.
I have nothing to compare SoI to.
I cannot imagine being a kid and dragged from one group to the other.
My childhood was not that great for sure but I am glad I was not forced into such strict spiritual settings.
What an infringment of a person’s free will to have a parent to this.
The only thing that saves me at times is the loving and free relation to god I grew up with as a kid.
I can always remember my pre cult relation to divinity.
Even as an adult I was damaged by that controlles religiosity. It is a scar that I will always carry.
Good for you for rebuilding your life.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 08:03PM by Truth wins.

RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> My story mirrors Ian's. I started in butler's
> cult, his gurukula, moved through 4 to 5 others
> gaudiya groups including ISKCON.


It takes a lot of faith in the Vedas or the process to go after SiF / SoI with 4 or 5 sangs.

Can you say something about the differences or phenomena in these successive sangas compared to SoI and in general - general social aspects but also in connection with the sciences etc:

- what was the issue of women leaders in these sangas? Were they mothers (matriarchy), single women (ex-lesbians?) Or were the leaders only men (patriarchy)? Married? They had children?

- what was the compliance with the rule of 3 heads in the temple: president, secretary, treasurer (in Poland, the model in SIF did not apply generally per center - the leader gathered the whole or subcontracted tasks - and of coure SiF Poland as a whole was under one leader with PR department and accountancy person with american visiting leader)

- what was the question of women's empowerment (according to Bhagavatam Narada muni did not initiate women)

- what was the issue of subsidies from dirty money - a reference to Bowler and marijuana - one-time acceptance, no acceptance or a permanent arrangement?

- what was the issue of getting involved in politics? Meetings of temple leaders and preachers with politicians? (vide Caitanya and Prataparudra), political benefits, permanent arrangements, involvement of members in political activities?

- what was the matter of maintaining brahmacari serving in temples / centers? Treatment, insurance, clothes, food

- the issue of recommendation for initiation - who and how recommended for initiation?

- the question of direct contact with the guru

- choosing the next leader - self-clarifying or the son of the leader, indicated by the "higher council" another guru, etc.

- selective hierarchical tolerance - whether the pranks of the lower and higher were treated equally or the higher the higher the leniency



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 08:07PM by Culthusiast.

More advanced questions are related to the profiling of specific personalities. For example, education, work experience, first spouse, etc.

Let's take Papa Dolphin.

Zoologist by education. What is the advantage of being a zoologist? The internalization of treating people as animals. Propped up by science. Strengthened with egotism. Increased sense of belonging to a group. Strengthened by possible competition with other guru aspirants. Plus, of course, the superiority of ideology, the only guru. Expansive behavior towards mild people. From a higher position, a bit dominant, mock humility. Here, however, it reveals the mechanism of immediate rejection of a personality with developed intellect - the inability to compete on this platform due to limitations. This is confirmed in the case of Papa Dolphin.

First spouse? Lesbian. We look further. Adoration circle on Facebook Polish mantra.pl - mostly women. 95% of women around Papa Dolphin. What is the profile of former female leaders in Poland? One nice girl finally showed lesbian symptoms. Another one, always lonely, the third former fiancé - drug addict - unsuccessful marriage with the devotee. Fourth - Polish beauty, MLM leader, adultery, divorce.

All in leadership positions, combining organizational power with local spiritual authority. In times of centers.

They are happy to advise you on their websites on how to succeed in your marriage.

"10 rules of succesfull marriage"

[www.mantra.pl]

(on earlier version Papa Dolphin was the advisor...)

Papa Dolphin's letters have been researched by NLP specialists. Uses psychological-manipulative transference. The pleasant narrative is punctuated by violent accusations. In the case of members who leave the cult, he uses the maneuver "we are social beings and we must be in some sect, group". The same maneuver is used, for example, by Jehovah Witnesses.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01/10/2022 08:57PM by Culthusiast.

Culthusiast Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> RUN_FOREST_RUN Wrote:
> -------------------------------------------------------
> > My story mirrors Ian's. I started in butler's
> > cult, his gurukula, moved through 4 to 5 others
> > gaudiya groups including ISKCON.
>
>
> It takes a lot of faith in the Vedas or the
> process to go after SiF / SoI with 4 or 5 sangs.
>
> Can you say something about the differences or
> phenomena in these successive sangas compared to
> SoI and in general - general social aspects but
> also in connection with the sciences etc:
>
> - what was the issue of women leaders in these
> sangas? Were they mothers (matriarchy), single
> women (ex-lesbians?) Or were the leaders only men
> (patriarchy)? Married? They had children?

Misogyny is a prime characteristic and ideological point in these cults. They try to butter over it but in the end, it is in their scriptures, purports, private lectures, letters and supplemental texts.

Just see this:

Once while Srila Saraswati Thakur was sitting with a few disciples in his room at Ultadingi Road, one of his sisters entered. After a short exchange she left, whereupon he asked those disciples why they had not restrained her from coming. And when Srila Saraswat Thakur was once visited by his aged mother and a sister in her fifties, and the only other male disciple present got up to leave the room, Srila Saraswati restrained him, saying, “Do you want me to fall down?”

There is countless examples of things like this. Butler routinely called his female followers dykes, cunts, bitches, and any manner of derogatory expletives.

Disciples are ignorant or chose to ignore it because they are told their guru is perfect. How powerful is a spiritual process when a guru as "pure" as Saraswati Thakur are blaming their disciple that they want them to "fall down" because mama and sister are in the room. But the disciple blindly cowers and feels guilty. What foolishness. One should immediately question what power and spiritual advancement is this to have such a level of fear and paranoia of developing sexual desire for ones own sister and old mother if left alone in a room

Culthuiset wrote:


- what was the issue of women leaders in these sangas? Were they mothers (matriarchy), single women (ex-lesbians?) Or were the leaders only men (patriarchy)? Married? They had children?

After SIF much of my interaction was with one householder guru and the rest were all sanyasis. Misogyny is built into the Krishna religion by virtue of many quotes by its founders demonizing women and womanhood. ISKCOn has had years of issues with woman leaders. Vaishnava dasi, Butler's wife was the quintessential "quiet wife" in the background. Bhaktivedanta had many quotes about his negative opinion of women based on completely flawed science and naive opinions. All that aside, the cult in all its various groups has always struggled to reconcile its view of women. For Sanyasi gurus the issue was more pronounced because of their vows. But even then a few were more liberal and were essentially dragged to the stand by other groups to answer for their "crimes". I think in general the mood is becoming more inclusive of women and their roles as leaders. But scripturally, the psychology is reinforced that women are in some way the fall of man.

The man had no problem imagining himself as a prepubescent farm girl servant of radha down to the detail of her sari, but having his mother in the same room with him was an existential threat apparently. This is the sick mentality of these religious fanatic delusional founders of the modern-day hare krishna. A grown man is claiming he cannot be in the same room as his old mom and sister without "falling down" and immediately putting the stress and blame on his dumb disciple for supposedly wanting him to fall down.

Is the man that weak that he will become sexually aroused by his own aging mother???? This is the underbelly fabric ideology binding these cults together. On the surface is some pleasant-sounding (if you like that type of thing) chanting and dancing, but behind the scenes, and the real "advanced" practitioners are people petrified of their own mother and sister. Or, in Butlers case, his own shadow.

- what was the compliance with the rule of 3 heads in the temple: president, secretary, treasurer (in Poland, the model in SIF did not apply generally per center - the leader gathered the whole or subcontracted tasks - and of coure SiF Poland as a whole was under one leader with PR department and accountancy person with american visiting leader)

The biggest lacking in all these institutions is proper psychological care and counseling with the cult's structure making it very insular no matter how non-centralized it gets. In a cult that is predicated on the idea of service and surrender, abuses and disparities, as well as feelings of discontent, are natural to arise. There is nothing in place to deal with this fallout except naive instructions to "chant and serve" more and more. This is the basic final answer to everything. But as I have pointed out the issue arises that the Siddhanta does not accept that simply "chanting" more is better. It actually states that the holy name when chanted offensively has no benefit or even the opposite effect. The "holy name" received from the wrong guru is actually not the holy name at all. And countless other exceptions to the rule to the point where there is little to no assurance that one is in fact progressing or advancing in any way. It breeds a culture of paranoia for many and stress and anxiety.

In general, the function of most centers and temples follow a template of presidents (usually the only qualification is that they have been a devotee for longer than others), a secretary and treasurer to manage donations and use of money. In most cases to fly sanyasis around to proselytize/recruit/convert.

- what was the question of women's empowerment (according to Bhagavatam Narada muni did not initiate women)

The vedas and post vedic texts and many vaishnva texts abound in misogyny and putting women down. Prabhupada has many lectures and book purports where he spells this rhetoric clearly. Butler was fond of calling his female disciple's such colorful phrases as bitch, cunt, whore, dyke etc.

There are many powerful women in Vedic myths and goddesses like radha and their worship vindicate some aspects of the misogyny (though early development and worship of the radha character came with much resistance within the vaishnava fold early on), but the fact remains it's vividly there and not in any way rationally justified. In a cult that dictates that we are not this body, there is no shortage of ways that they highlight the differences. The mythical spaceman, Narada Muni, is a fictional character. Unless you accept that a man who plays a Vina (an instrument only invented some 2-3000 years ago at best) is able to travel in intergalactic space. so I have not much to say on why the stories authors chose to have him be a character that did not take on women disciples, other than they themselves subscribed to misogyny and found women to be less intelligent, the cause of spiritual fall down and other foolish nonsense ideas.

- what was the issue of subsidies from dirty money - a reference to Bowler and marijuana - one-time acceptance, no acceptance or a permanent arrangement?

Bowler drug money was a source of major funds for Butler. How long and how many people were involved is up for speculation. At least one major event in smuggling drug money out of Asia for Butler involved a network of top disciples/followers: Allen Tibby (Acharya Das), Bhalakilya (Midget), Guru das and several other women and men. Butler and his devotees were always engaged in some sort of business and money schemes to support Butler's many "important service" ventures. Much of this has been detailed on this forum. Even worse stuff sits in the hearts of his sheep.

- what was the issue of getting involved in politics? Meetings of temple leaders and preachers with politicians? (vide Caitanya and Prataparudra), political benefits, permanent arrangements, involvement of members in political activities?

Since I was a child Butler and his followers were always engaged in politics and trying to gain influence in politics and policymaking. If not Reed than Nishiiki and Gabbard than others. The recent Tusli maneuver was pivotal and critical in that they actually made alliances with ISKCON and other vaishnava groups in an attempt tp increase support and vote among hindu communities. Essentially toppling the democratic process by using religious influence to give support to an otherwise completely unqualified and naive candidate who appeal to conspiracy theorists and can barely hide her mirroring of Butler talking point. Obviously the Tulsi Campaign generated millions for Butler. Her campaign was riddled with hypocrisy and victim play.

- what was the matter of maintaining brahmacari serving in temples / centers? Treatment, insurance, clothes, food

Brahmacari is cellebecy. Nothing wrong with that on the surface. There are traditional religious social structures of Brahmacaria that are embedded in Indian society (most bluntly its association is there with caste brahmanism). But in ISKCON it took on the model of heavy child indoctrination and abuse. In Butler's gurukula it was not far off. Students were unnecessarily separated from parents, at the height of puberty asked to live together and abide by strict schedules, heavy ideology and physical and mental austerity that had nothing to do with spiritual life or anything meaningful to experience at that age. It was at best a highly unnatural environment that left most of us confused, dictated by guilt, fear, anxiety and stress. We returned to the west with little to no formal education or ability to enter into public schools or universities without being at a disadvantage and handicap. Our education consisted of 80% useless education. We had to play catch-up and re-learn the ways of society. We all left with a completely false and skewed sense of the world around us. Our parents "served" butler while we suffered. That is all that brahmacari life was to us. We were tended to at the bare minimum to our survival needs. We lived in filth, mold, and crappy food. I've written about my time there as have others. I have friends who went to ISKCON gurukulas, some while prabhupada was still alive, who were molested and beat and forced to eat their own vomit routinely.


Any religious ideology that thinks kids need to be "taught early" about scriptural mythology rather than functional real-life issues, solutions and facts is a breeding ground for ignorance. Any parent that is OK with sending their kids to such schools is a delusional cult fanatic. Any child who is raised in such schools will likely grow up to be a delusional cult fanatic. In some cases, such kids will get abused in unspeakable ways and experience completely avoidable and unnecessary discomfort and suffering and still pay allegiance to the gurus and gods that apparently are ok with and must enjoy the suffering of others. There is no other explanation. As the saying goes: a god is either a sadist, indifferent or does not exist. No one asked god to create a construct wherein we have to "prove" our love to him by playing some cosmic game of "how much can you suffer before you want to love me?". So you know, that one is on god to explain. In the meantime, such a god is not real to me and pointless to love. Service as a principle of mutual benefit and social welfare is absolutely helpful and needed in society. Cause if there is one thing that is for sure: We are all on the same boat.

In Butler's gurukula in the Philippines, there were a good number of boys that were psychologically damaged and had no support or professional and qualified help. They suffered. I have friends from ISKCON gurukulas who were raped, physically and verbally abused. Some as young as 6-12 years old by headmasters and matajis that gave the most "inspiring and beautiful" lectures. So any asshole can give a nice lecture.

Any asshole can become versed in sastra and any asshole can make followers, "inspire" devotees to perform "devotional service" (aka build empty structures of worship to statues, help get Tulsi in office and Wailana's next music video out). Kids who go to such schools will undoubtedly grow up with issues that will affect others in their life, their relationships, ability to fluidly move through life and make good choices.

In the Butler gurukula, Haridas Tamayo and his cousin, Narashinga "Nash" Tamayo were fortunate in that their parents/siblings/relatives were there and they received affection and an otherwise normal upbringing of social interactions with family and friends. Siddha das was spoiled. He took hot baths, was massaged and otherwise pampered. The rest of us were often wet, dirty and living in a constant state of stress, anxiety and tension. We were waking up at 4am, taking cold bucket showers and filing into a dark temple room where we mindlessly chanted for hours while nodding off to sleep, listening repeatedly to butlers rants and lectures and being told that fantastical myths from the "vedas" were "fact". Our time "outside" was spent preaching and book-distributing. We had harsh disciplines for minor transgressions, were humiliated, embarrassed and shamed. Older boys like siddha das taunted us, bullied us and created a dangerous environment by bringing venereal diseases back to the school that they caught from prostitutes (Jai hoe!). We lived in constant fear of committing sin, displeasing our spiritual master who we never ever saw even once at the school. Were there aspects of it that were nice? Sure. Soccer was fun. Beekeeping was fun. Being with friends was fun. Did we need to be 3000 miles way from family and living under harsh conditions to have those few "fun" things? ABSOLUTELY NOT. I was molested by fellow students I thought were my friends and cared for me. I could not tell anyone. There was no one to tell. I had friends kicked out and publically humiliated for jerking off in the privacy of their bed. 36 boys at the height of puberty and a guy gets shamed and embarrassed in front of his peers and sent home for slapping the sausage. The list goes on. These are cults. You can quote Bhaktivinode and Saraswati and Bhaktivedanta all day long. They never went to a school like this. They grew up in the comfort of their parents/friends/society and were surrounded by "yes men" majority of their life as spiritual leaders. Butler certainly went to no gurukula. Every year millions of kids are dragged into cults like this. They are told to believe in the most irrational shit you will ever hear in your life. They will be told they are impure and need to "cleanse" their sins or worship or give allegiance to some leader or book without having the luxury of self-discovery. Mostly they will comply out of nothing more than fear and naivety. Not deep realization or rational insight.

- the issue of recommendation for initiation - who and how recommended for initiation?

Butler and many guru's play a type of psychological game with regard to initiation. A person is often kept in state of ambiguity about what they need to do to "qualify". at the same time, the gaudiya religion dictates that one cannot make true advancement and progress without initiation from a bona fide guru, so folks are often kept in a type of state of limbo where they feel that they are not really able to make any progress no matter what they do until they get diksha. At the same time, to get diksha, they need to continue to play the part. We have seen time and again that even from the time of Bhaktisidhhanta to Butler, initiation was held like a carrot fro some disciples, but for others, usually, those who proved to have some talent/skill/money, they were initiated promptly. Also, we had to get a "recommendation" to go to Butler's gurukula. I am not sure if the process of verifying qualification for any number of roles is an issue per se, but in a cult setting it often has a power/control dynamic that is not really based on anything tangible other than the guru's whim. I have seen devotees slave for Butler for years and many other groups have the same dynamic. In the end, in most controlling relationships of this type it pays off more to keep a prospective disciple in a state of perpetual guessing and hope, rather than giving them the so-called coveted connection they desire. You can get more out of them. There are many gurus in the gaudiya line that did not give diksha or were apprehensive to give diksha and so forth. The fact is that this is cruel in a philosophical and spiritual system that says that one cannot progress without such a connection. It's a power play and it 100% satisfied the ego of the teacher playing hard-to-get. At the same time, Prabhupada was in the habit of initiating as many people as possible. Many were completely "unqualified" who simply ran back to their drug addictions or ended up in his mission as perverts and abusers. But because they are "prabhupada disciples" we have to respect them and protect them. What is the way to verify that a person who is giving a recommendation for initiation is not doing it out of some ulterior motive? The answer is there is not. It is impossible. Hence I reject such naive systems of creating community and developing spiritually.

- the question of direct contact with the guru

This is a big bowl of nonsense and cause of issues in Gaudiya groups. Butler made a big deal about a "living" spiritual master, but what percentage of his followers have any meaningful relationship with his "living" person. None. Not any more living than reading scriptures by dead sages. The message in the books is there. Did prabhupada say anything in his purports that is so insightful that one would somehow misunderstand what is being said without it? It's insulting to anyone with basic reading and comprehension skills. Those who lack such skills are not interested in the study of philosophy anyway. Most kids born into the cult do not pay attention to the symbolism in the myths. They like the stories, that is it. Children bowing to pictures of spiritual teachers on an altar is not a "living" connection. Writing your guru a letter and not receiving any answer is not a living connection. I gain wisdom and insight every day from assorted sources. I don't need someone to give me a purport. Have you read prabhupadas purports? 80% are absolutely pointless and useless exercises in wordplay and repetition. Never mind the stiff that is bluntly wrong, ignorant or offensive. Example:

Prabhupada from chaitanya charitamrita:

However, Lord Caitanya's greatest gift was His teaching that Krsna can be treated as one's lover. In this relationship the Lord becomes so much attached to His devotee that He expresses His inability to reciprocate. Krsna was so obliged to the gopis, the cowherd girls of Vrndavana, that He felt unable to return their love. "I cannot repay your love," He told them. "I have no more assets to give." (I guess god is finite after all...) Devotional service on this highest, most excellent platform of lover and beloved, which had never been given by any previous incarnation or acarya, was given by Caitanya Mahaprabhu. Therefore Krsnadasa Kaviraja, quoting Srila Rupa Gosvami, writes in the fourth verse of his book, "Lord Caitanya is Krsna in a yellow complexion, and He is Sacinandana, the son of mother Saci. He is the most charitable personality because He came to deliver krsna-prema, unalloyed love for Krsna, to everyone. May you always keep Him in your hearts. It will be easy to understand Krsna through Him."

I'm pleading with you guys on here who still believe in this stuff. This is literally a religion focused on the notion that we will become farm girls in love with a blue god after we die if we keep chanting over and over. We literally wake up on a farm in medieval india and engage for eternity in repeatedly helping god and his married girlfriend cheat. This is not a joke. This is the core teaching of this cult. Do you seriously want your kids to grow up thinking that this is a reality and truth? That some medieval erotic devotional poets' delusions become your life goal?

Another one:

Visnu does not require anything in order to create. He does not require the goddess Laksmi in order to give birth to Brahma, for Brahma is born from a lotus flower that grows from the navel of Visnu. The goddess Laksmi sits at the feet of Visnu and serves Him. In this material world sex is required to produce children, but in the spiritual world a man can produce as many children as he likes without having to take help from his wife. So there is no sex there. Because we have no experience with spiritual energy, we think that Brahma's birth from the navel of Visnu is simply a fictional story. We are not aware that spiritual energy is so powerful that it can do anything and everything. Material energy is dependent on certain laws, but spiritual energy is fully independent.

Does the swami not know from a basic biological perspective why a man has a penis and a woman a vagina? If god does not have sex, what use does he have for a penis? Yet the vedas describe god as having a penis. Yet he does not need one and does not have sex (so it's just there for looks I guess. I assume god does not pee either, so its really just an appendage that hangs there). Apparently gods wife, Laxmi is eternally satisfied just massaging gods feet. Do gods feet hurt or something? Why the eternal massaging of the feet? Why does god not have sex? Is there something wrong with sex? Is god so prude and ashamed and embarrassed about sex that it's off the table? He seems to be cool with rubbing feet and apparently enjoys it. Is sex not pleasant for god? How about a handjob? It's still rubbing. I'm just curious where god draws the line. God dances, plays the flute and preys on married village farm girls, but has an issue randomly with sex. The evil sex! Dancing and flute playing is "spiritual". But sex? Well sex is gross, low and material. Everyone knows that. All these gods are so concerned about sneaking behind the backs of their husbands and abiding by all manner of traditional gender roles/stereotypes, but sex is off the table and men just have wives and penises for looks, you know, cause its all transcendental and spiritual. How ridiculous and sad.

The material world is squarely a material affair. What exact "spiritual energy" was required to create material things? We don't believe that a 4 headed character was born from the naval of an even larger 4-armed character because it sounds like total nonsense. We also have very rational explanations for the formation of solar systems, planets and life on earth. We even have very plausible ideas about the emergence of consciousness, life and any number of chemical conditions that result in such phenomena. We don't know everything, but we are sure as hell a billion times closer than any veda ever suggested.

If there is anything in the veda that has some rational equivalent its 100% coincidence or vivid imagination and 100% no older than the last 500-1500 years, which corresponds to many scientific discoveries made at the time. Creation myths in all religious traditions and indigenous cultures are totally bonkers. You don't see all those people writing tons of purports saying that "you gotta understand, this shit is spiritual man..." as they describe some Native American lore about a wolf creating the moon. Not Prabhupada though. He would not let up. He literally wrote purports to 60 or so books trying to convince people to worship a cosmic papa smurf. I mean people cry and lose their mind over religiously fanatical ideas. They write volumes of books and try to convince everyone that they really have all the answers and figured it all out. if you just chant this mantra, sprinkle this magic water and spin clockwise, you'll get a bliss treat.

At some point their mind dissolved into the bullshit so much they literally cannot distinguish fact from fiction (what they call bhajan or samadhi or nirvana). Or they experience a type of mental split that compartmentalized the fairytale so they can still wipe their own ass and remember to brush their teeth. There's no other explanation. Of course, sociologically religion allowed for mass cooperation and had other social benefits as well. But we are obviously well beyond that as a species.

A guru who is able to sit with their disciple one on one and discuss things pertaining to that specific devotees spirutal life is hypothetically a great thing. In the old days, this was possible. Now we live in times that this is largely incomprehensible. Some guru can for some time attend to his flock, but as it grows bigger it is impossible to tend to everyone. At that time, things once again fall into the realm of interpretation. One only has their own intuition to go off of. My intuition told me that what these teachers peddled was mostly nonsense. And the stuff that was useful was often couched in unnecessary complication and arduous rhetoric.


- choosing the next leader - self-clarifying or the son of the leader, indicated by the "higher council" another guru, etc.

Appointment of the next acharya is actually a common practice started with Bhaktivinode and Saraswati thakur. The notion that a teacher is self-evident and revealed is naive. Running a church/mission/organization requires putting the affairs of daily operations into the hands of someone who actually has a proven track record of caring for the organization. As far as where one gets shiksha, that can be anyone. Diksha is of several types. One can get nama diksha or brahman diksha. Basically, the scriptures dictate that guru tattva need not be formalized to be real. So actually the whole process of giving people new names, threads, beads etc is really a formality that creates a cult-like effect in the end and can be done away with. If one cannot freely move where they are inspired then it is not an organic and natural process of verifying and seeking knowledge based on your realizations and level of understanding things. Rather, under the direct discipline of one man, one can only have so much realizations. As the saying goes: Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

In the Gaudiya Math they have their acharya appointing system. Just like ISKCON, they have their "acharya boards" and so on. Butler has somewhat passed the baton to Midget and Allen. These guys take the "living guru" thing so seriously that it's like an obsession. It's as if everything will just fall apart until there's another personality in place that everyone can focus on. How is that not completely weak-minded? It's as if they cannot think for themselves unless there is a guru sitting on a throne for them to stare at.

The veda, butler, and Plato all have wise advice. Deep realization is the art of spotting which wisdom serves you, applicably, functionally, and rationally in life. A guru serves at best a temporary function.

A guru who speaks nonsense ideas should be given up. A guru who gets agitated when he sees that people want to freely move and gain inspiration elsewhere is a charlatan. A guru that is intolerant of how others interpret the teachings and philosophy simply creates a rigid circle that only attracts a specific type of person.

Bhaktisiddhanta was one such preacher. He was harsh, dismissive of other Gaudiya groups and leaders and was constantly finding fault with and shutting down anyone who did not reflect his exact exclusive views. When he went to vrindavan he famously said that there was not a single Vaishnava in Vrindavan.

Bhaktivedanta was more liberal (no doubt in a last gasp attempt to make the whole package palatable). In fact, the offshoots of these cults that are more liberal in their approach tend to attract more followers. Eventually, and this is a good thing, they will have women sanyasis, women leaders and even homosexual couples that practice the religion openly advertising their "Vedic marriages" (with a scriptural verse bent in support of the "ancient" practice). If the faith is to succeed and find appeal among the masses, it certainly does need to give up some of its archaic ideas and adapt.

Eventually, it will morph into yet another religious system that claims a superior conception but really is no different at face value than any other religious group. It pretty much is going that way. Parasurama is a fictional story of one such guru. A totalitarian blinded by ideology with no recourse for real problem solving and critical thinking and complete surrender to fanatical dogma. Not a God by any standard. Like Butler, the fictional Parashurama was governed by anger and hatred as his main motivator for spiritual thought. At the end of the day, any religious institution that believes it prudent to indoctrinate and create schools to separate kids from their parents is a cult.


I do not think Butler has any intention of making his fuck-up son-in-law the next "guru". He would be torn apart in 5 minutes. I think Tulsi and others in positions of power may be better candidates. Ultimately, whoever runs SIF when Butler is gone doe snot need to be a "pure devotee" to do a better job than he did nor do they have to even remain part of the parampara. There are many other more liberal organizations like Blue Mountain Meditation that teach the same basic ideas as SIF without the irrational allegiance to Butler. One may take the core teachings of a teacher without adherence to or endless justification for who the founder was. Most of these gurus are religious fanatics. That is all. They are not giving a truly nonsectarian message. If you look at things like Eknath Easwaran's organization, you will see a more rational approach to teaching some of the core principles of vaishnavism and eastern philosophy. But this is just one of many such options without falling into the cult dynamics of Gaudiya groups

- selective hierarchical tolerance - whether the pranks of the lower and higher were treated equally or the higher the higher the leniency

No of course not. Even in the story of many vaishnava texts one can see that certain people can exhibit "low" behavior or tendency but still be elevated to a "high" position by the method of some playful rationalization and justification. Starting from the parampara mythical guru, Brahma to shiva and down to Butler, there are endless justifications for the words and actions of the "pure" sector.

If there is anything in the veda that has some rational equivalent its 100% coincidence or vivid imagination and 100% no older than the last 500-1500 years, which corresponds to many scientific discoveries made at the time. Creation myths in all religious traditions and indigenous cultures are totally bonkers. You don't see all those people writing tons of purports saying that "you gotta understand, this shit is spiritual man..." as they describe some Native American lore about a wolf creating the moon. Not Prabhupada though. He would not let up. He literally wrote purports to 60 or so books trying to convince people to worship a cosmic papa smurf. I mean people cry and lose their mind over religiously fanatical ideas. They write volumes of books and try to convince everyone that they really have all the answers and figured it all out. if you just chant this mantra, sprinkle this magic water and spin clockwise, you'll get a bliss treat.

At some point their mind dissolved into the bullshit so much they literally cannot distinguish fact from fiction (what they call bhajan or samadhi or nirvana). Or they experience a type of mental split that compartmentalized the fairytale so they can still wipe their own ass and remember to brush their teeth. There's no other explanation. Of course, sociologically religion allowed for mass cooperation and had other social benefits as well. But we are obviously well beyond that as a species.

Whether one believes in god or not, no modern human, in rational good faith, can take at face value these myths. They may be taken symbolically, but that is 100% not how they are taught by this cult (to be fair, bhaktivinode did make some attempts to explain krshna lila symbolically). What is really going on, is that if Prabhupada or any hare krishna admitted that any number of myths were not true, their whole ideology would fall apart. Because it's all interconnected and hanging by that very thin thread. And it's also what's been the issue in vaishnvaism throughout history. Every time a person comes along with a new view, rejecting an old one, they need to rationalize it and shoehorn it into the "vedic cannon". And all of sudden, hidden verses pop up, old scriptures are "discovered" (brahma samhita anyone???) and any number of excuses are made for the new religious movements (cults) that pop up. And a new saint is made into a god or incarnation.

They can't throw out their naive creation myths because the very god, 4 headed brahma, is what their entire sampradaya hinges upon. It all unravels and becomes disjointed and falls apart without the backdrop of the silly myths. And that is why Bhaktivedanta wrote literally thousands of pages trying to justify it, support it, explain it and rationalize it. And that is also why the average disillusioned devotee has a hard time letting go of it. They have built their entire conception on a delicately interconnected structure of bullshit. One turd out of place or unaccounted for and the shitshow collapses. I say let it collapse.

It's time to rebuild our considerations of these myths in the light of symbolism and proper, rational consideration. We cannot go forward attempting to build spiritual traditions in the modern age with adherence to archaic ideas and blind ideology. Prabhupada and butler spent their guru career criticizing scientists and rational thought only to have the laugh be on them.

No modern day human who has any sense hears these tales and takes them at face value. When you do, you have endless things to make excuses for instead of focusing on a rich life full of exploration and wonder.

I rather die not knowing and continually striving to gain knowledge and appreciate and have wonder for what I can tangibly experience than to wishfully pretend that some cow-land is my final destination and my lot in life is to rack up brownie points by chanting as much as possible.

Bhaktivinode imagining himself as a 12 year old girl:

varane tarit, vasa taravali kamala-manjari mana sare baro varsa vayas satata svananda-sukhada dhama

My bodily hue is like that of lightning and I wear a sari the color of a clear night sky sprinkled with stars. I am twelve and a half years old and I live in Svananda Sukhada Kunja.'

Run. Some of us may run uphill for some time. some downhill. But away from these clowns is what you should strive for till you feel you've rid your mind of every last drop of their idiocy once and for all. Read a damn book other than the scriptures they peddle. Love your family and enjoy the bounty of life. Contemplate the beauty and wonder of life and find simple joys. Stop filling your mind with nonsense of this type.

Even if you sit all day and play video games and smoke weed you are 100 times better off than the average bozo who subscribes to this nonsense. at least you are living in reality.

Here is another bhaktivinode lecture in classic delusional devotee fanatical fashion: [gosai.com]

As always, he's simply wrong and chooses to live in delusion rather in reality. This is reality:

[www.nytimes.com]

The fact is that there is nothing holy or transcendental about a river made of H2O (you know, besides the combination of chemicals that result in such a great phenomenon). It's a river that originates in the Himalayas and flows down like any other river. It gets polluted by religious fanatics who care more about getting "purified" than about preserving nature and taking care of a water source by keeping things clean. Fools. Run and if you believe in god, pray to the man in the sky or in your heart to guide you gently out of this mess.

Literally, no scripture mentions the goal of vaishnavas to become manjaris. A complete concoction and fabrication by the chaitanya saint and his fanatic followers. A modern day religious movement no older than 500 years old. Even texts like the brahma samhita were conveniently "discovered" when there is no mention of such texts in any vedic or even vaishnava texts any older than 500 years. Basically, it was a new, invented religion and conception/ideology that had no origin in the vedas and hardly any origin even in it's more orthodox texts like the bhagavtam and gita—both of which make no mention of any hare krishna mantra nor of the goal of adherents to become manjari girls in cow-land goloka. Completely made up and manipulated to create a narrative that simply was never there. Believe and adore whatever you like about these people. Tell me they were a "product" of their time and whatever else. I would stay away from this shit with a ten-foot pole. Study the evolution of vaishnavism, krishnaism, bhagavatism and see that it is not only completely unrelated to anything "vedic" in any authentic way, it's a hodgepodge of endless amalgamations, redefinitions, adjustments and additions to scriptures and nothing remotely eternal about it. There is specific time periods in history as well as social events that resulted in the popularity of worship of vasudev, krishna, radha etc.

In recent times, the epileptic saint Chaitanya was coming upon "lost scriptures" like the brahma samhita to bolster his specific brand of krishnaism. The groundwork for the radha krishna myth was laid down in assorted vaishnava texts, not vedic, Jayadev and Nimbraka further evolved these myths and gave them a romanticized and pastoral flare that took hold of the public imagination. This was before TV guys. Anyone who was a poet, writer, artist had the power to entertain and create popular stories that captured the publics interest. Brahmanism was losing a hold on people. It was a dictating and demeaning religious sect that needed to revitalize it's public image. These stories were usurped, evolved and remixed to fit the narrative they need to regain public trust, create a national identity and reinvigorate interest in "god" within a general public that was largely Buddhist at the time or advaitist.

You can read about all these things. There is no special message or power in chanting mantras worshipping statues and believing in myths. It's the makings of every religion and like every religion, they tell you it's more special than all the other ones. They tell you it's the one true real thing. Welcome to the club. As it's been said, religion is "cult+time". Right now, the Hare Krishna faith is largely a cult, but it is becoming a religion day by day:

Branding Bhakti: Krishna Consciousness and the Makeover of a Movement (Framing the Global) [www.amazon.com]

This type of mentality destroys your ability to be a rational human being. There is no ifs and buts about it. These me can say all manner of nice-sounding idealism but in the end they fear being in the same room with their old mother. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. That is the mentality of a supposed "pure devotee" and the highest expression of what this cult has to offer.

Imagine living in a world like that? How is that rational, functional, applicable and sustainable? Which begs the question: If this man was so petrified of being in the same room with his mom and sister out of fear of getting lusty over them, how powerful is the mahamantra and the path that he was practicing? Presumably, if anyone was chanting the "real holy name", it was him. So is that the hallmark of being a saint? That you preach "we are all not the body, we are spirit soul!!!!", but alas, this woman, my mother, well, she will be the cause of my fall down from my precious, fragile spiritual life. What a damn joke. No manner of philosophical blabber will ever justify such a mentality.

Meanwhile, Butler married one of his own disciples. Bhaktivedanta had splendid views on women and left his wife because she drank fucking tea. Do these people seem like sane individuals worthy of emulating, worshipping and following on any level? So the only attractive factor is the mythos and legend that surround these personalities. Which is essentially the makings of any personality cult. And their great rebuttal to all this is that someone like me is "envious" of them. That's what they immediately label anyone who calls them on their bullshit" Demon, envious, mayavadhi, mlecchaa, etc etc. Sound familiar? That's exactly what brahmins did to lower castes.

Ironically, Saraswati randomly thought it prudent to establish "brahman thread" diksha in a cult that has little to nothing to do with brahmanism. Nor the veda, which is where the Gayatri Mantra originates. Why was that? Why was brahmin initiation considered "second" and a more superior initiation to so-called "nam diksha"? Why was Prabhupada so concerned about establishing "varna ashram" societies? Why this unreasonable focus on Brahminism in a cult that barely had sanyasis and whose founder literally said "I am not a brahmin"... So why create such an order and artificial hierarchy and any number of false identification labels that did nothing more than creating a sense of division in a devotional cult that prides itself on equality and universal appeal to all classes of men? Does god really want us to live in fear of our own shadows? Does god want us to get freaked out being in the same room as our old mother on his account? Does god really want such completely unnatural perspectives of reality? Is being like this really what shows our love and devotion for a god? That sounds bonkers just saying it, but that is in essence what is being said.

Basically, the highest devotion to god is measured by the least functional expression of human life. Lets see how far off the mark we can get in our perception of the world, slap the label "spiritual life" on it and tell everyone the good news!

Run folks run.

Thank you run forest run. Your story is too similar to Ian’s.
Absolute madness. Truly unforgivable and traumatic.
I will always apprecaite all of you in here for exposing the disgusting truth.
Who told you about the details of the hashish business? I am very curious to know how so we know that top dogs were also involved?
It is not just a rumor?
I guess they never though internet would betray them decades later.