You know I wasn't going to respond here anymore because of the conspiracy claims about me, since if anyone had taken the effort to read what I have written then as Satyagraha has rightly pointed out - clearly I am critical of Butler and Bhaktivedanta. But the problem I have with some of you guys is your attack on people if they don't agree with your views 100%, then you act as if they must be secretly supporting Butler and Bhaktivedanta, and are probably part of some conspiracy you try to weave together.

But since maybe you have calmed down a bit and are no longer claiming I am part of a conspiracy, I will answer Satyagraha.

You wrote:

"Pam is not willing to be honest on certain points. First, she claims Chris never claimed to be anything other than just another guru, co-equal with his god-brothers. That is blatantly false. She also claims Chris and Mike and Tulsi have been upfront about what they are trying to do, politically. That is also blatantly false. They have tried to remain in the shadows for years. The succession of Butlerite politicians have all lied about their relationship to Butler using almost identical language: "I am not a member" of SOI. I am too independent for any organized religion, etc. And they have persecuted former members who have tried to share the group's secrets with the "karma" world, as well as tried to erase history. Look at how they have used the courts and the threat of lawsuits to suppress the historical record of photos and documents exposing their past practices."

I never said Butler claimed to be co-equal with his godbrothers, what I did say on civil beat is that he doesn't claim to have special powers like what is seen in certain cult leaders, i.e. cult leaders who claim to have received some special mandate or powers making them unique in the world, like many in India who claim to be God, or have magic powers, or are some avatar of some demigod; or in the Christian world those who claim to have been anointed to become the new Jesus or whatever, like for example the founder of Mormonism and his claims of angels appearing to him and his story on the origin of the Book of Mormon - that was what I was referring to when I wrote:

"he does not present himself as a singular special person with special powers"

I said nothing about his godbrothers that I can recall. As far as I know Butler presents himself or at least did in the past as superior to some of his godbrothers, but not because he is inherently some special divine being, but because according to him some of them deviated from the teachings of Bhaktivedanta. That is the same view taken by many of Bhaktivedanta's followers. Ever since Bhaktivedanta left there emerged a split in the movement between those who saw the leaders of ISKCON as deviating from Bhaktivedanta's teachings, and those who don't see them as deviating. This has led to numerous schisms with many different groups calling themselves the Hare Krishna movement, ISKCON, etc. Butler was simply the first to do so, but he was followed within a few years by many others who split off.

The most successful of all those groups is the group based out of Bangalore, India calling themselves "Srila Prabhupada's ISKCON" and "The Hare Krishna Movement." They gained legal control over the massively popular ISKCON Bangalore temple; and they run the huge Akshaya Patra Foundation, they alos have many temples of their own in India and have a lot of support in India, they are also the ones building the tallest temple in the world in Vrindavan, the Vrindavan Chandrodaya Mandir

They also see themselves as superior to many of their godbrothers like Butler, but not because they have special powers, it is because they believe leaders of ISKCON have deviated from Bhaktivedanta's teachings. That reason is a bit complicated, the history of that story on why they believe that is the main reason given by those who reject ISKCON leaders as not being true to Bhaktivedanta. I explain the history of that reason called the "ritvik movement" within the Hare Krishna society, in chapter 16 of my book, the chapter titled "Running Away," at Monster Hotel: Krishna Cosnciousness

Butler is like them, he criticized ISKCON leaders as deviating from Bhaktivedanta, which makes him superior to ISKCON leaders because he considers himself as not deviating from Bhaktivedanta. There are many others outside ISKCON who believe they are superior as well, there are many websites where they air their many grievances against ISKCON for supposed deviations from Bhaktivedanta.

Satyagraha you then said that my claim about Tulsi and the other Butler associated politicians was false. I had said they did not show any hidden agenda when they got elected, that they haven't deviated from their stated platforms, they have legislated and acted according to their stated positions. I said that their religion they has no hidden political agenda, that in essence they teach an apolitical doctrine (non-political), Hare Krishna is apolitical when it comes to American politics. And therefore the many individuals within the religion or cult or whatever you want to call them, they speak or support all varieties of political issues just like society at large.

They each have their own political views, which I said is mostly to the left, but not all of them, and when the ones that go right do so, it is usually only on social issues - not an across the board conservatism where they support the corporate controlled state, e.g. supporting low taxes,for the 1%, small government (no welfare), and the usual establishment GOP positions against regulations over business, environment, etc. I then brought up the differences between Wayne Nishiki and Mike Gabbard. Both are or were followers of Butler, but on opposite sides of the political spectrum. In Hawaii Nishiki is a hero to the left, seen as the sole voice of dissent against the corporate takeover of Hawaii in Maui politics, and Gabbard, while he is on the right with social issues, has not been so on other issues. And we have seen them both act in their positions according to what they speak, they have never displayed a agenda in office other then what they openly speak. So my point, where is the hidden agenda, and what it is it? To spread their religion? So what? That is American as apple pie. Have you seen American politicians when it comes to religion?

Now you may claim they have some hidden spiritual based agenda, but that is neither here nor there when it comes to politics unless we see that come to concrete legislative or other political action, I mean do you follow the insane nonsense going on over gay marriage? It is all religious based by the politicians in America, since it is taken as a given that politicians have spiritual connections and are supported by people with similar faith based views, at least in America it is a given; and the only difference with the people connected to Butler is that he is not a Christian or Jewish or Muslim spiritual leader who influences politicians. I mean the entire Republican party has deep connections to Sun Myung Moon for chrissakes, they take millions, and his organization even runs the main right wing newspaper in the country (Washington Times) and he has even been crowned as king of America or some nonsense by sitting leaders of the government - because that is America for you - in England it would be a big deal, but in America they have a different view on spiritual groups and politics.

The rest of what you said, well, I said nothing about that, and really the only one to deny being closer to Butler then he really was or is, is Mike Gabbard. At least that I am aware of he is the only one, I am not aware of any other of his followers in politics denying they are close to him if directly asked. And for Mike, I can understand why he would do that, I mean most people only see "Hare Krishna" through the lens of what they have seen in either movies, TV or on streets or other areas - always in Indian monk robes and chanting and playing drums and maybe dancing, and maybe asking for money - they have been imbibed a meme or vision of them as "weirdos." So it is not totally unexpected that even though Butler's group doesn't wear the robes, or do the street chanting, or collect donations by approaching people, that if people are told Gabbard is a Hare Krishna they will automatically think "bald headed weirdos in the street singing and dancing and begging." Which Gabbard is not.

Butler started his group originally because he thought all those things were holding back the growth of ISKCON. So his vision since the start of his separation from ISKCON, even while still a nominal part of it when Bhaktivedanta was still here, was that ISKCON was too Indian culturally speaking in it's appearance and it's practice to be attractive to most in the west. Bhaktivedanta disagreed with him and told him so and demanded he not follow that path, but he had a soft spot for Butler up till the end, and would always be supportive of him even though he also told him to stop and return to the ISKCON way of doing things. It was an unusual relationship, Butler was unique in ISKCON history and any guru history that I know if because he was the only guru with a bunch of followers to transfer himself and his followers to another guru and organization.

Butler and his close associate and right hand man Tusta Krishna Swami were adamant in the belief that they were right and set about trying to achieve a different type of ISKCON, without the Indian cultural elements. Even though Bhaktivedanta disapproved, and didn't want Butler's ideas to be taught in ISKCON, still he was friendly and fatherly to him till the end, which is how he was with most of his followers who had disagreements with him and had left. He would chastise them and then stay friends, with a paternal view towards them. But even in ISKCON in the last few years the idea of leaving aside Indian cultural aspects has some support, for example one of the oldest gurus in ISKCON has started a thing called Krishna West, where he and his followers are trying to do the same thing Butler did, and which Bhaktivedanta was against. He has the support of ISKCON, but many outside of ISKCON see in him everything they dislike about ISKCON leaders deviating from Bhaktivedanta.

So my point about Gabbard denying close association with Butler, I can understand what he saw that as the right thing to do considering the public's view of "Hare Krishna people." He wasn't that, his group dressed in western clothes, didn't chant on streets, didn't proselytize in the streets and ask for donations. All they did was follow and teach the same philosophy, and do the same bhakti-yoga practices (sadhana). Was Gabbard wrong to deny it? I don't care one way or the other, but I can see the motivation. If the public didn't associate "Hare Krishna" the way they do, then I doubt being connected to Butler would be something considered not worthy of hiding.

As for the rest about the SOI or Mike Gabbard trying to block some of what you guys post using copyright or whatever grounds, well, that is a separate issue aimed at some of you personally for what he sees as either a politically motivated agenda in attacking him, or some agenda against him personally or against his religion. The news about Mike Gabbard's true past connection to Butler and SOI was revealed years ago in the local Hawaiian media, and since it hasn't hurt his political career, what you are experiencing with the copyright claims is not about trying to hide that, since it is well known, it is about impeding a political opponent, i.e. you, which is how he must see you - as people trying to harm his political career. So he does what any other politician or businessman would do, try to impede your attacks on him. That is my guesstimate.

My free eBook: [monsterhotelkrishnaconsciousness.blogspot.com]

Butler is not "your friendly neighborhood Spiderman guru". Many ex followers and current ones report that Butler presents himself as having mystical powers and "knows things". Followers have always expressed fears when they share doubts.

Butler continues to claim to be in complete communion with the g0dhead and therefore has all the answers. The rule is that if you want to get to the Ultimate stage of Bliss, you have to serve Butler's material body completely. To do less is to endanger your spiritual life. This has been clearly documented. Any one wishing to see these writings may do so privately.

There are many legends and fables about Butler's mystical prowess that he does not refute. In fact he promotes them by accepting followers. Their job is to give their lives over completely. He has never presented himself as just a teacher or advisor; but a supreme leader with supernatural powers. Eating the food off of his plate, dirt upon which he has walked, or his toenail clippings are considered mystical potions to purify one's soul.

Why were those little children and their parents so in awe and eager to get a flower garland from guru? Because it is supposedly imbued with special powers to get you closer to the g0dhead. How many followers do you know still have dried flower garlands in special boxes or hanging on a bedpost? They are not kept for sentimental reasons. True believers feel that these totem items hold spiritual power.

Butler has always set himself above all others, while playing the game of pretending to be a "humble servant". He appointed himself Jagad Guru, Paramahamsa, as well as Prabhupad a long time ago. When he started to become isolated and started losing followers to other Vaishnava gurus, he and Tusta created alliances with other Vaishnavas. They cover each other's asses. It has always been about politics.

Thanks for that terrific post Vera, and of course for what it's worth that was 100% accurate as someone born and raised within Chris Butler's totally insane and insular cult.

The cult literally severed all ties with the world the moment Chris Butler left ISKCON/ACBS' "disappearance".

"Nah, bro, he didn't disappear... It's called dying, it's not a magic trick and old snuff face is laying right there."

The cult was already decades adrift in my young years, propelled by the sparse fumes of the bogus science arguments that can barely impress a child. No new or fresh information or connections to anything outside the group were ever developed. Chris Butler has always been far out of reach to his own followers but in my youth he at least produced a lot of content and seemed to offer some type of channel of communication with him.

It was horrendous living in the Chris Butler cult of the 80's or 90's but I understand these days it is a whole different type of intellectually baren wasteland as now it is some kind of purgatory as you are expected to be locked in to total devotion and obedience to a master who you cannot see, cannot communicate with and who hasn't produced any new material in perhaps a decade or appeared for his followers since the "good old days" of the Oahu beach gatherings of the 2000's.

I could not imagine the intense psychological strain this must have upon the members. Sure it was bad enough when your master was so dominantly providing you instruction and information, but now I imagine there is an underlying terror as these totally dependent cult members sustain themselves on these decades old images and completely debunked and outdated "science" of this turtle-necked terrorizer from yesteryear.

Members these days are left to a completely unvarifiable and completely compassionless system of "Chinese whispers" (telephone for the slightly less racialist) overseen by the Cult commanders like Allan Tibby, George Ormond and Mahabagavat Das aka Mark Ferguson. These "elder" members are the only ones you can get actual feedback from just acting as experts on the arbitrary drivel and destructive and ignorant dictates of Chris Butler gleaned over the years.

The current cult members play a childish game called "Srila Prabhupada says...". This game replaces the direct communication with him and the advice administered in sentences phrased for this game is used to disown family members and neglect ones own emotional and mental health.

"SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS WE MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE OFFENSIVE TO HIM"

This line is enough to disown your own children and family over, just parroted at you by some cold cult administrator like Allan Acharya Tibby. You better heed the command of this game or you to will be out on your own, ejected from a cult that is a true prison.

As to my title, I have never seen Google results like those for Siddhaswarupananda Paramahamsa. There is literally an entire page of paid results before you even get to see the real google results. Even then it is a vast network of "official" sites all for the sole purpose of spamming this forum down in the Google ranks.

It must cost them so much money to do this, good work everybody. Obviously anybody searching for critical information will naturally add the term "cult" to the absove search terms and you get the goods as soon as you add that key word.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/19/2015 02:45AM by Rama Das (slave name).

Correct, Rama!
"SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS WE MUST NOT ASSOCIATE WITH ANYONE OFFENSIVE TO HIM”

Does anyone here remember when the order came out about the Harry Potter movies around 14 years ago?

"SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS WE MUST NOT watch the Harry Potter movies because there is an upside down cross in it!”


riiighttt!!
but its ok to abuse your children emotionally.....

Expecto Patronum!*

Ha! The real reason the "Dementor Butler" does not want the kids to see Harry Potter books and movies is that there is no "Jagad Guru" model in the stories. Dumbledore was a wizard, a teacher, an administrator. He never claimed to be a supreme, perfected, infallible being. He made mistakes, was selfless, fair, and well meaning. He was gay too (according to author JK Rowling).

The kids in Hogwarts are empowered to learn and discover their own strengths and abilities to do good in the world and for the world. Family is very important. Child abuse and neglect is admonished. At Hogwarts the kids learn how to deal with their own mistakes and get out of tight spots with the help of friends and their own initiative. They discover that people are not always what they seem to be. They break the rules for the greater good of others. They are not raised to worship and serve Dumbledore.

Harry Potter stories encourage investigating secrets and inconsistencies.

On the other hand, "he whose name must not be spoken" is more like Lord Voldemort with his absolute control over followers and demands for complete obedience. How many Butler devotees remind you of Doby, the House Elf?!

Really smart cult kids would probably notice things like this and be influenced to question their parent's lifestyle and Butler's power base.

All fundamentalist religions hate the Harry Potter books because they encourage imaginative and critical thinking. The controlling stock in trade with cults is to create a fear of outsiders and the world. Harry Potter books, on the other hand encourage bravery, action, and facing your fears.

*Note: Chocolate is an effective first-aid to mild cases of contact, given to a victim to help regain their strength after an encounter with Dementors.

CHOCOLATE!!
HAH!

Another Butler decree: No one eats chocolate!

"SRILA PRABHUPADA SAYS WE MUST NOT EAT CHOCOLATE!- IT IS OFFENSIVE.”



Riiigghhtttt...but its okay to eat his toenails!

Expecto Patronum

Vera has alerted us to something important.

Quote
Ha! The real reason the "Dementor Butler" does not want the kids to see Harry Potter books and movies is that there is no "Jagad Guru" model in the stories. Dumbledore was a wizard, a teacher, an administrator. He never claimed to be a supreme, perfected, infallible being. He made mistakes, was selfless, fair, and well meaning. He was gay too (according to author JK Rowling).

When evaluating a group, do all you can to learn what members, particularly
long - time members, actually read.

What literature do you see in their houses>

Furthermore, what kind of music do members listen to?

Ask if they've read what you're interested in.

And wait for the reaction.

Here are some examples of books you can ask about.

You want to learn if members of a sect have wider horizons than just the group.

* If a group claims to be part of the Hindu traditions, ask
if they've read Wendy Doninger's The Hindus: An Alternative History.

[www.google.com]

*If they're big into music, mention the music and movies that
are top of the charts in India at this time. Mention that you
like to read Times of India online, or India Currents.

Watch the reaction. Plus or minus?

Pam Ho, I do not know you personally, I have no interest in your views and I despise your role as a mouthpiece or an advocate for cults. Is this an attack? Absolutely not. You are everywhere, with the same repertoire: cults are just as the same as any religion. That’s fine and is within your freedom to espouse what you believe in. Hey, it’s a free country. But do not play the “victim” card when people dispute your woowoos – this is a public forum based on freedom of speech. Nobody gets a free pass here.

You seem to be a very articulate person and have invested a lot of lifetime in the cult. I fail to see why would a free society welcome your advocacy – they are diametrically opposed to one another. The value of “free market of ideas” is to discuss openly everything under the sun within reason. There is no way a cultic authority of thought will have a place in a modern and free society. Either you are of the former or of the latter, never both. You claim to have left the cult and seem to have accumulated vast knowledge of the “unrealities” of a cult, specifically Krishna/Vaishnava theology. I don’t doubt that – socially, yes; but psychologically? You’re still very much in the cult, and remain complicit.

My next question is – what is your true motivation speaking for the cult? Here, knowing that the premise of this forum is: Cult by definition and practice is bad. Whatever your arguments are, pass that, are irrelevant, or are “off-topic”. If you can argue why cults are not a menace to society and a threat to all decent-living families, only then can we talk about why should we stop concerning ourselves with Tulsi, yoga and other misleading tools Chris Butler obviously using to surreptitiously insert your “values” upon uninformed public?

I’m not sure if you have a family or understand what it is like to have one – what is it like to be disowned by; what does it feel like; what is a biological bond; or in what context do you define what love really is? Like the “people” you advocate for, to tell Rama, Lalita, Radhika, the gurukuli children to suck it up, you are not your body, tough luck, lick up, move on … I really doubt you do, or ever will. You need help.

Requiem for a Troll.

Let’s pay our respects and move on, here folks...nothing here worth seeing...."these aren’t the droids you are looking for....”