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counselor47

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zeuszor
had a professor in college who was friends with Ole and would tell us stories.

Who was that?

His name is Sid Chapman, and he's a Professor of Philosophy at Richland College. I was a student of his in the Spring 1993 semester and he used to tell us about his eccentric friend Ole Anthony. Whether Dr. Chapman is still teaching or retired I do not know. Probably retired by now, I suspect. Does that name ring a bell?

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counselor47

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zeuszor
Next question: on page 162, Wendy describes she and Doug's disagreements about whether TFI met nine of the ten listed criteria, or all ten. Which one of the ten were you in disagreement over?

I did not feel at that time that Trinity Foundation met the requirement of being legalistic--though clearly they were authoritarian. I have since revised my view.

How so?

Here is part of what Seeking quoted from Wendy's book:

"The truth is that the expression of anger was a part of my recovery—the process of taking back control of my life. It was a healthy expression of self-caring. It was hard to see God as willing to love me and protect me from harm if I was not willing to be angry that I had been hurt. Until I could come to terms with the fact that I was in fact a victim, it was difficult to become a survivor. "

So assuming this was indeed a destructive abusive experience, how could anyone claiming to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ say what Wendy says above? Could you imagine Jesus saying something like this? He rebuked Peter and said "get behind me Satan!" when Peter said that he would not be persecuted and killed. To Christ a "healthy expression of self-caring" would have been disobedience to the Father. If he had given in to that, our hope in his salvation would be lost. (at least from the standpoint of orthodox christian theology) Did Jesus say he had a right to be angry from the cross? No. He said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing." Our reasonable service as believers is to be a living sacrifice.

There is anger because of injustice, but anger born of victimhood comes from pride. That is to believe you deserve anything other than a death sentence. True healing comes when you come through the anger and into grace and forgiveness, because you know that's what you've been shown. Feeling sorry for yourself and justifying your anger is spiritually equivalent to letting an infected wound fester. This is not healthy self-expression.

No wonder Wendy says Ole Anthony's teachings are heresy. I question if Wendy knows the Jesus who said he came to "give his life to be a ransom for many" either.

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NathanA
Here is part of what Seeking quoted from Wendy's book:

"The truth is that the expression of anger was a part of my recovery—the process of taking back control of my life. It was a healthy expression of self-caring. It was hard to see God as willing to love me and protect me from harm if I was not willing to be angry that I had been hurt. Until I could come to terms with the fact that I was in fact a victim, it was difficult to become a survivor. "

So assuming this was indeed a destructive abusive experience, how could anyone claiming to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ say what Wendy says above? Could you imagine Jesus saying something like this? He rebuked Peter and said "get behind me Satan!" when Peter said that he would not be persecuted and killed. To Christ a "healthy expression of self-caring" would have been disobedience to the Father. If he had given in to that, our hope in his salvation would be lost. (at least from the standpoint of orthodox christian theology) Did Jesus say he had a right to be angry from the cross? No. He said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing." Our reasonable service as believers is to be a living sacrifice.

There is anger because of injustice, but anger born of victimhood comes from pride. That is to believe you deserve anything other than a death sentence. True healing comes when you come through the anger and into grace and forgiveness, because you know that's what you've been shown. Feeling sorry for yourself and justifying your anger is spiritually equivalent to letting an infected wound fester. This is not healthy self-expression.

No wonder Wendy says Ole Anthony's teachings are heresy. I question if Wendy knows the Jesus who said he came to "give his life to be a ransom for many" either.

Nathan, you have lost me. What is your point? You're saying that Doug and Wendy do not have the right to be angry about being manipulated and abused by Ole? Why not reserve judgement until you read the book (which I am willing to buy you a copy of, by the way) so that you have more than one side of the story? Do you have the guts to read it? Attacking the character of somebody that presents a different point of view than you do is the sign of a personally and spiritually immature individual. Tha's what is called an ad hominem attack. You are not being reasonable. You are lashing out by attacking the character and motivation of a person who tells you something that you don't want to hear, rather that recieving it and giving it thoughtful consideration. The bottom line here is we know of what we speak and you don't.

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So assuming this was indeed a destructive abusive experience, how could anyone claiming to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ say what Wendy says above? Could you imagine Jesus saying something like this? He rebuked Peter and said "get behind me Satan!" when Peter said that he would not be persecuted and killed. To Christ a "healthy expression of self-caring" would have been disobedience to the Father. If he had given in to that, our hope in his salvation would be lost. (at least from the standpoint of orthodox christian theology) Did Jesus say he had a right to be angry from the cross? No. He said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing." Our reasonable service as believers is to be a living sacrifice.

[i:08ea01a740]Huh?[/i:08ea01a740] Have you read Ephesians 5:11?

"And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather expose them." (NKJV)

That's what Wendy did. Exposed evil. Speaking out is instrumental to the healing process. Have you ever met Ole Anthony, spent personal time around him? Do you have any idea what you are saying?

What is your business in participating here, anyway? You are not an ex-member. You are not a researcher. What is your interest in defending these people? Don't give me that "WWJD" song and dance either.

Isn't it past your bedtime, kid?

I think my point is pretty clear. And yes, I should go to bed.

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So assuming this was indeed a destructive abusive experience, how could anyone claiming to be a true disciple of Jesus Christ say what Wendy says above? Could you imagine Jesus saying something like this? He rebuked Peter and said "get behind me Satan!" when Peter said that he would not be persecuted and killed. To Christ a "healthy expression of self-caring" would have been disobedience to the Father. If he had given in to that, our hope in his salvation would be lost. (at least from the standpoint of orthodox christian theology) Did Jesus say he had a right to be angry from the cross? No. He said, "forgive them Father for they know not what they are doing." Our reasonable service as believers is to be a living sacrifice.

What does that mean??? It's about the most muddled logic I have ever heard anybody use. You seem to ignore a lot of things we say. It seems that you are quite biased against these claims because they do not fit the picture you have of TFI.

What is muddled about my logic? All I am saying is that those of us who know the grace of God also know that we don't have rights, but that we offer up ourselves as living sacrifices. I am saying that that quote from Wendy's book disagrees with that theology.

We have the right to not be abused by somebody that we trust, right? Who are you and what interst do you have in so adamantly defending Ole?

What does that [i:24f37412bf]mean[/i:24f37412bf], "we don't have rights"?

Did Jesus take that right with his disciples whom he trusted, but who abandoned him?

What is your point?