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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: September 21, 2020 04:39AM

Quote
Gaja
how did you felt this deep psychological suffering ? Were you shivering from fear or crying from loss, or ? Do you remember ?

It's very personal but I'm anonymous here so I feel I can share it. I suffered from pretty bad social anxiety, and as a result I was very lonely. At that point, I had been in therapy (psychoanalysis) for a year. During the therapy, I had to verbalize every thought that occurred to me. That was very difficult because of course a lot of thoughts are very personal. But it helped very much, to become aware of what my "faulty programming" was, and how it had been installed in me during my early childhood. It had a lot to do with family circumstances.

But finally I clearly saw that I couldn't blame anyone. It had been me all along that chose to pick up and believe the fears. I could have chosen otherwise but I didn't. Choosing fear was sort of a cop-out, a way to escape challenges instead of handling them. The fears just became habits. I could have dropped them at any point but didn't. It had been me all along that caused my misery. It had been this psychological construct consisting of stories I told myself about what I was and what reality was that was at the root of my problems.

To accept that truth was so incredibly hard and painful that a single thought kept repeating on a loop for a whole day: I wanna die. But at the end of the day, I decided that I wouldn't end my life. Even if every next day is going to be just as painful, I'll just tough it out because I can't burden my loved ones with my suicide.

What had helped me throughout all this was that I had already discovered a steady core inside me, a vague recognition of the unwavering observer, the pure core of consciousness that's unaffected by whatever happens. This was thanks to exposure to teachers like Mooji, and others whom I've done retreats with, and of course regular self-enquiry, preceded by about four years of daily meditation.

After the psychological crisis I described above, I started writing with the idea that I could help others get through psychological hardships by discovering that steady core. This writing process invigorated my curiosity about the matter. With renewed interest I started exploring consciousness. I came up with different themes for meditation-sessions, such as: what is the shape of a thought? What does the beginning of a thought look like? What does its ending look like? And all sorts of investigations like that, that require meditative exploration.

A stream of insights started to come with increasing frequency and intensity. This lasted about a week until it climaxed in what felt like an explosion of white light. It was the center of the illusion of the self-concept that seemed to have exploded. Ever since, that center is gone, but that doesn't mean at all that all the illusion is gone.

I think three things played an important role in this process:
1. recognizing the self-concept as the root of my problems
2. total acceptance of my suffering, letting go of resistance
3. intense curiosity about the true nature of self

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Gaja ()
Date: September 21, 2020 04:41AM

and what was this self-concept you were mistaken to believe to be you? Was it some concept - I'm perfect, or I'm bad, or I'm good, and then living life by improving yourself, your self-concept ? or it was just some sense of self?
And now, how do you know you exist, if you are not little self anymore? How can you function in the world, make money, go to work, so on, if you are not little self anymore, only open space of awareness ? This is my concern, how can fully realized beings function, live, with no ego, and i do not mean without fear, or desire, but without shaping one's reality. For example, I may go to shop and buy shoes and believe I need shoes, but also truth would be, I do not need buy shoes, I may create my own protection for my feet. Or I may say - I prefer go to work by bike instead of the bus, or car when in fact, The Self might not see so much difference. You know what I mean. Don't you think we need ego to live?

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Gaja ()
Date: September 21, 2020 04:55AM

zizlz Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Quote
Gaja
> how did you felt this deep psychological suffering
> ? Were you shivering from fear or crying from
> loss, or ? Do you remember ?
>
>
> It's very personal but I'm anonymous here so I
> feel I can share it. I suffered from pretty bad
> social anxiety, and as a result I was very lonely.
> At that point, I had been in therapy
> (psychoanalysis) for a year. During the therapy, I
> had to verbalize every thought that occurred to
> me. That was very difficult because of course a
> lot of thoughts are very personal. But it helped
> very much, to become aware of what my "faulty
> programming" was, and how it had been installed in
> me during my early childhood. It had a lot to do
> with family circumstances.
>
> But finally I clearly saw that I couldn't blame
> anyone. It had been me all along that chose to
> pick up and believe the fears. I could have chosen
> otherwise but I didn't. Choosing fear was sort of
> a cop-out, a way to escape challenges instead of
> handling them. The fears just became habits. I
> could have dropped them at any point but didn't.
> It had been me all along that caused my misery. It
> had been this psychological construct consisting
> of stories I told myself about what I was and what
> reality was that was at the root of my problems.
>
> To accept that truth was so incredibly hard and
> painful that a single thought kept repeating on a
> loop for a whole day: I wanna die. But at the end
> of the day, I decided that I wouldn't end my life.
> Even if every next day is going to be just as
> painful, I'll just tough it out because I can't
> burden my loved ones with my suicide.
>
> What had helped me throughout all this was that I
> had already discovered a steady core inside me, a
> vague recognition of the unwavering observer, the
> pure core of consciousness that's unaffected by
> whatever happens. This was thanks to exposure to
> teachers like Mooji, and others whom I've done
> retreats with, and of course regular self-enquiry,
> preceded by about four years of daily meditation.
>
> After the psychological crisis I described above,
> I started writing with the idea that I could help
> others get through psychological hardships by
> discovering that steady core. This writing process
> invigorated my curiosity about the matter. With
> renewed interest I started exploring
> consciousness. I came up with different themes for
> meditation-sessions, such as: what is the shape of
> a thought? What does the beginning of a thought
> look like? What does its ending look like? And all
> sorts of investigations like that, that require
> meditative exploration.
>
> A stream of insights started to come with
> increasing frequency and intensity. This lasted
> about a week until it climaxed in what felt like
> an explosion of white light. It was the center of
> the illusion of the self-concept that seemed to
> have exploded. Ever since, that center is gone,
> but that doesn't mean at all that all the illusion
> is gone.
>
> I think three things played an important role in
> this process:
> 1. recognizing the self-concept as the root of my
> problems
> 2. total acceptance of my suffering, letting go of
> resistance
> 3. intense curiosity about the true nature of self

_______________________________________________________

Thank You, for this open, and honest letter.
And also it is hard to not blame parents,or grandmother, or uncle who were sometimes verbally agressive toward me, when I was a child. I do not know if I had a choice to not be afraid of them...now I can see more, that this was just their stressed reactive ego. I was also having no good youth,because of my own insane programming, but I learnt my lesson.
And I also suffered, but I couldn't call it that way, loneliness. All my youth was about how lonely I felt and every thing in the world had no value for me, or couldn't make me happy.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2020 05:05AM by Gaja.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:31AM

Quote
Gaja
and what was this self-concept you were mistaken to believe to be you? Was it some concept - I'm perfect, or I'm bad, or I'm good, and then living life by improving yourself, your self-concept ? or it was just some sense of self?
And now, how do you know you exist, if you are not little self anymore? How can you function in the world, make money, go to work, so on, if you are not little self anymore, only open space of awareness ? This is my concern, how can fully realized beings function, live, with no ego, and i do not mean without fear, or desire, but without shaping one's reality. For example, I may go to shop and buy shoes and believe I need shoes, but also truth would be, I do not need buy shoes, I may create my own protection for my feet. Or I may say - I prefer go to work by bike instead of the bus, or car when in fact, The Self might not see so much difference. You know what I mean. Don't you think we need ego to live?

I have no idea about what fully realized beings are like. I think Ramana may have deserved that nomer but I don't know if anyone alive today does.

What I described is what's sometimes called initial awakening or satori or stream entry. Unfortunately many people call it enlightenment and think of it as having reached some superior or even perfect state. That's plain bullshit in my opinion.

The bliss and feeling of liberation that comes with the initial awakening is so incredibly intense that it almost automatically leads to a belief of "having arrived", but that's a trap. I would say the intensity of that feeling in that moment and (slowly decreasing) the month after was about a thousand times as intense as I ever have felt at any other time. From what I understand in some cases this intense period can even last years. So I think it's very understandable that some people in that situation start to think of themselves as enlightened and start teaching. But sooner or later the honeymoon phase ends and you have to deal with all the psychological habits that are still present. They haven't been magically wiped away, even though it seemed to be so for a while.

Quote
Gaja
and what was this self-concept you were mistaken to believe to be you? Was it some concept - I'm perfect, or I'm bad, or I'm good, and then living life by improving yourself, your self-concept ? or it was just some sense of self?

Maybe self-concept isn't the best term. Psychological self-story might be a better term. Often it's called "the ego" but so many people mean so many different things by that word that I try to avoid using it. What I mean by the self-concept is just what you believe you are, the totality of every belief you have about yourself, your life-story consisting of your memories, your feeling of being a body, etc. Every identification with some sort of physical, conceptual, and emotional form.

Life nowadays is not much different than before the event, but it's much easier because I know without any doubt that what I really am isn't tied to this body or personality. I realize that this life is just a story existence tells itself and like all stories it will end and that doesn't matter because it's just a story.

So life goes on much the same but nothing can hurt to the core. Since it happened I seem to be unable to feel loneliness or existential angst/despair.

When the "explosion" happened, at first I cried like I never cried before, because I felt I had finally come back home after an eternity, and then I laughed like I never laughed before, because it was so funny to me how I had taken life so seriously while from the perspective of what I really am, nothing ever mattered, it was all a joke.

I think some of that remained too; I still sort of see that cosmic sense of humor underlying everything; I can't take anything deadly serious anymore.

The feeling of "having arrived" is now long gone; I know that I'm not "enlightened", whatever that is, and I know that much more profound states of consciousness are possible than I usually experience. That has to do with habitual unnecessary mind-chatter that still goes on. I think some Buddhists say that stream-entry is just the beginning of the spiritual path and I can see what they mean.

Because of the feeling of having arrived I pretty much dropped my meditation practice and now (six years later) I finally realize that I have to put in a lot more work (i.e. meditation) for a more peaceful state of mind to take hold. I don't have any goal of becoming enlightened or a realized being or anything like that. I mostly see enlightenment as a myth, something for the ego to chase.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: September 21, 2020 06:13AM

Quote
Gaja
Thank You, for this open, and honest letter.
And also it is hard to not blame parents,or grandmother, or uncle who were sometimes verbally agressive toward me, when I was a child. I do not know if I had a choice to not be afraid of them...now I can see more, that this was just their stressed reactive ego. I was also having no good youth,because of my own insane programming, but I learnt my lesson.
And I also suffered, but I couldn't call it that way, loneliness. All my youth was about how lonely I felt and every thing in the world had no value for me, or couldn't make me happy.

I think it often happens in families that people are in psychological pain but they refuse to feel that pain so they try to unload the negativity onto others by cruel behavior. Especially kind-hearted children are easy targets. They don't want to hurt others by unloading their pain onto them, so they keep the pain inside. They're too young and inexperienced to be able to process that pain, so they lock it inside themselves. Only later in life, when they are more mature, are they able to unlock the pain and process it. I don't even know if that's possible without help (therapy).

In my experience unlocking the pain is also difficult because it comes with the realization of how cruel those family members have been. Again, kind-hearted people have it harder because they find it harder to admit the dark sides of others.

So you have to recognize the responsibility of others for your pain, but after a period of allowing that recognition, there has to follow an acceptance of the way it is and the way it has been. That acceptance can be in the form of forgiving those who have done wrong and taking responsibility for your part, however small or big that was.

I think that without acceptance it's not possible to move on.

Thank you for your open and honest post too, Gaja! I hope you're doing well in your healing process.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: shamrock ()
Date: September 21, 2020 06:29AM

Well, again I would argue that just because awareness of awareness seems like a direct experience of reality doesn't means that it actually is a direct experience of reality. But apart from that, I think we're on the same page. These regressive states of consciousness can be therapeutic. Which is great. But I don't take their achievement to be the ultimate goal of life -- which is the carrot held out by Tony Moo and his sort.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: zizlz ()
Date: September 21, 2020 07:09AM

Quote
Shamrock
Well, again I would argue that just because awareness of awareness seems like a direct experience of reality doesn't means that it actually is a direct experience of reality. But apart from that, I think we're on the same page. These regressive states of consciousness can be therapeutic. Which is great. But I don't take their achievement to be the ultimate goal of life -- which is the carrot held out by Tony Moo and his sort.

I also think we're mostly on the same page, especially about the carrot :)

Maybe when awareness is pointed on itself, it seems to experience awareness but it actually experiences something else. I don't know how that could be but I can't exclude the possibility. But if it's not that way, if awareness can actually directly experience itself, that would be the only possible direct experience of reality. Any other experience of reality is actually an experience of a representation of/reference to reality rather than reality itself, unless I'm missing something.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: itsnowornever ()
Date: September 21, 2020 07:53AM

zizlz Wrote:
------------------------------------------

>
> In my experience unlocking the pain is also
> difficult because it comes with the realization of
> how cruel those family members have been. Again,
> kind-hearted people have it harder because they
> find it harder to admit the dark sides of others.
>
> So you have to recognize the responsibility of
> others for your pain, but after a period of
> allowing that recognition, there has to follow an
> acceptance of the way it is and the way it has
> been. That acceptance can be in the form of
> forgiving those who have done wrong and taking
> responsibility for your part, however small or big
> that was.
>
> I think that without acceptance it's not possible
> to move on.
>


This is just wonderful,thanks zizlz.

I agree: for thorough healing to occur we kinda have to find peace with the fact that no one cares in a way, and no one knows what they're doing, and we're all doing the best we can, including guru figures. Getting that might take a lot of contemplation,or just strike us suddenly.Healing is seeing that we really are ALL in the same boat.There's all "anihilation of ego" necessary imo.

This doesn't mean we accept abuse; rather, we'll probabily identify it sooner and deal it more effectively.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Gaja ()
Date: September 21, 2020 02:04PM

zizlz Wrote:
>
> I think that without acceptance it's not possible
> to move on.
>


Oh, no, is big progress right now. Yet some years ago I suffered like hell within. But I wasn't all good, and there was bad world outside, no no, I knew my insanity was taking over me. I use to deal with fear, or anger by giving often sarcastic or ironic comments, I thought this is smart, I had no idea, I was expressing pain. Sometimes I thought of my self, as being psychopath having potential for killing, because I use to experience hate, and I had fantasies about killing someone. Sometimes I was getting drank, and I was threatening to Krisnabai, on her facebook page - I hated her so much, I believed she had so much more kindness, and love, and care than I had. When I saw her, all well dressed up, with fancy hair cut, smiling, and protected by moo, while he was treating me really rough, I was like possessed by demon.
Well, now when I think of them I do not feel anything, they are rather strangers to me right now. And also now, I have a lot of kindness for myself and I'm grateful for being alive, and I see life to be amazing gift. And also I do not need fancy dresses and hair cuts or being loved by someone, to feel gratitude or feeling well in my own skin.


I haven't went to therapy, because I believe in my country - Poland there is no good specialists - maybe I'm wrong.

My therapy, was, walking through forest, and stopping mind during my walks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/21/2020 02:17PM by Gaja.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: stefa ()
Date: September 21, 2020 05:32PM

Namaste, in the context of hell, happiness and bliss, kindly read a small excerpt below, which i hope will shine some light on your path towards liberation. The tone in the article is a bit straightforward and to the point, so try to be impersonal and not be offended. i am just trying to share and pass on the light, at the same time contrast cow dung vs Truth.

"CONVERSATIONS WITH ANNAMALAI SWAMI

HAPPINESS AND FULFILLMENT COME ONLY FROM THE SELF

To keep the mind in the Self one must have no desires for anything other than the Self. This is a very difficult state to attain. The desire to seek pleasures in the outside world always seems to be stronger than the desire to seek pleasure in the Self. Why is this so?

Annamalai Swami: All happiness ultimately comes from the Self. It does not come from the mind, the body or from external objects. If you have a great desire for a mango, when you finally eat one there is a great feeling of pleasure. When a desire is fulfilled, the mind sinks a little way into the Self and enjoys some of the bliss that is always present there. Then it rises again. It remembers the happiness and tries to repeat the experience by eating more mangoes or gratifying other desires.

Most people are completely unaware that pleasure and happiness come from the Self, not from the mind or the body. Because most people have only experienced the peace of the Self when a great desire has been fulfilled, the come to the conclusion that the pursuit of desires is the only way to get an experience of happiness and peace.

If you try to follow this standard route to happiness you will end up with a lot of frustration and a lot of suffering. You may occasionally experience a few brief moments of pleasure, but for the rest of the time, you will experience the pain of frustrated desires, of desires that don’t seem to produce any pleasure when they are fulfilled.

If you try to repeat pleasures, again and again, the novelty soon wears off. A mango, which you have been looking forward to for days, may give you a few seconds of happiness when you eat it, but eating five or six more will not prolong your pleasure. Prolonged indulgence is more likely to produce pain than pleasure.

Most people in the world spend their whole lives self-indulgently pursuing goals, which they think will produce happiness for them. Most of these people never stop to do mental accounts properly. If they did they would realize that every ten seconds of happiness is followed by hours or days when there is no happiness at all. Some people do realize this, but instead of giving up this way of life, they indulge in it even more. They think that with a little more effort and a little more sensory, mental or emotional indulgence they can expand the short periods of happiness and contract the longer intervening periods when happiness is not experienced.

This approach never works. If there are many strong desires in the mind, the mind cannot sink completely into the Self and experience the full peace and bliss that is there. …

The desire-filled mind only experiences the bliss of the Self in a very diluted form. If you want the full bliss of the Self, and if you want to experience it permanently, you will have to give up all desires and attachments. There is no other way.

- Living by the Words of Bhagavan, p. 301"

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