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Re: A question asked 4 years ago
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 09, 2018 10:02AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> [forum.culteducation.com]
>
>
Quote

Mooji is collecting funds to build an
> ashram.
> ...
>
> Will big donors be given equal treatment with
> those who donated less?
>
> Will long time supporters have access to Mooji as
> they had in
> the good old days before the ashram was built?
>
> Or will the completed ashram result in the guru
> becoming remote,
> will your support be forgotten, and will you be
> forced to wait, while
> new supporters or the rich supporters be given
> preferential treatment?
...

That is a great point, Cowboy.

I would like to share part of a comment (it's a very long comment) from "Atma Yoga" who posted back in January this year on gururating.org


"Over time I found myself losing all interest in most worldly activities and would spend most of the day watching Satsang and immerse myself fully into Moojis pointings, teachings, opinions and worldviews without questioning his own ego and guru-identity anymore. I would interpret any criticism and irritation arising inside me as signs of my ego-mind and thus dismiss it immediately! In the beginning I was happy with the goal-oriented instant-awakening approach but over time this built up the pressure to “get it” fast or otherwise being stamped as a hopeless case. It clearly felt that this impatient goal-orientation could on the deepest level not be authentic and true! With hundreds of hours of Satsang in retreats, intensives, silent sittings, available on Youtube I noticed also a kind of addictiveness to listen to him.

Having no interest in pursuing a career anymore I found myself more and more in a financial and familial crisis and eventually slipped into a truly horrible dark night. I spoke to some people from the Sangha who expressed having similar problems and did not find Moojis statements on this topic very helpful, given the fact that he himself did not have to care of such matters for decades, living in a protected ashram-cocoon."


To me, this comment sums up the dangers, for the average person, like myself, in getting involved in this Mooji cult. No spiritual teaching should lead you to retreat from real life. That is not the purpose of spirituality! Having a belief system should make your life more meaningful and more rewarding... it should not lead you become depressed and have financial and family problems.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota ()
Date: September 09, 2018 11:16AM

Sahara71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
I do not
> know of any legitimate religion or spiritual
> doctrine that suggests you give away critical
> thinking!






It is, for one, the basis of all Zen.

“Do not seek the truth; only cease to cherish opinions.” - Seng-ts’an, The Third Patriar





> Mooji even says that he does not do a lot of
> reading himself and does not study the scriptures.


That's nothing so significant,really. There are many examples of historically and modern day wonderful masters (I mean wonderful in the sense of being HELPFUL) who rarely quoted scriptures or didn't at all. Bankei comes to mind. Jesus Christ of course, and John the Baptist before him. Meister Eckhart did, but basically only to put into question every single one of them (how that one escaped ex-communion nobody knows lol), Diogenes the Cynic, Nisargadatta, nowadays some people in the US like Ben Smythe, Francis Lucille, Byron Katie...



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2018 11:39AM by Mara Fiota.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota ()
Date: September 09, 2018 11:37AM

Sahara71 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
If you would like to explore this further,
> just join the Mooji Sangha Facebook group and ask
> a lot of questions. You will soon see that you
> will always get the same answer to every question:
> always it is a variation along the same theme,
> "That is just your mind". Every single time.




This is kinda annoying to me as well, but hey, in the great scheme of things... Plus at a certain level, it IS right,even if not expressed in a particularly creative fashion

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 09, 2018 03:17PM

Mara,

My favourite Zen quote has always been
"Before Zen, chop wood, carry water.
After Zen, chop wood, carry water."

To me this means that even though you realise a certain spiritual truth, you live fundamentally in the real material world where you have to live your usual life, just as before.

In certain mystical traditions, Zen being one, there is an emphasis on a type of understanding that goes beyond typical reasoning; beyond the type of critical thinking that we use for day to day problem solving. I understand this. This is where the use of Zen koans come in. I actually enjoy Zen koans very much.

But Zen does not advocate that you give away critical thinking all together and become a zombie, blindly following a leader! It does not mean that you become totally mindless and spout the same phrases over and over again, without even considering what you are actually saying.

It does not mean you lose your moral compass, either, and have no idea of right and wrong.

By the way, Jesus quoted scriptures in the bible - as most scholars of Christianity agree, he was an observant Jew, and possibly a rabbi.

The reason Mooji hints that people don't read classical Adviata is because he doesn't want them to know how he distorts and mis-uses these teachings. I'm not suggesting he is illiterate or too lazy to read. I am suggesting that he doesn't want people to explore any traditional teachings at length, he just wants them to blindly follow him. Mindlessly.

I'm glad you agree about the Moo Sangha Fb group. They are brain-washed and it is very, very disturbing.

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xivoparig posted 8/10 & NSH999 posted 8/11 A one*two Punch
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 09, 2018 09:25PM

Just to make sure we remain focused on the Mooji situation, here is a summary of
xivoparig's material.

[forum.culteducation.com]

xivoparig posted the report on August 10, 2018 02:26AM

[forum.culteducation.com]

Then, shortly following xivoparig's post, a member named NSH999
wrote, describing changes he or she had observed in Moo's lecture style.

This is remarkable in that the author respects advaita teachings, has
observed a number of teachers and had a basis of comparison by which to
assess Moo and changes in Moo's material-and changes in moo's devotee group behaviors

[forum.culteducation.com]

(brief quote)

Quote

His new messages started to say very different things from his original pre-2010 sayings. He developed spiritual materialism as some have pointed out. Specifically he says that 'people should feel something special from you, when you enter the room'

I believe he started saying this as a manipulative tactic to create a confirmation bias in weak minds. When they interact with people and they feel that 'regular people' can 'feel something special from them' it means they have met the abstract goal and are on the right path. But this 'feeling' can come and go at the drop of a hat, change of weather etc.

and

Quote

This brings me to my main thesis:

Mooji Sanga is Moojis personal cult and retirement plan. He created it from scratch as a means of securing a comfortable life for himself. It seems to have taken a turn for the worse, as some of his videos started to remind me of the film Fight Club when the original gang started recruiting more followers until everyone is blindly following an authority system they do not understand or take accountability for.

Finally, in 2016 I stopped watching Mooji after seeing him allowing people to worship him. after seeing a crowd of people reaching out to touch is garments, people falling at his feet and carrying on, I knew things were really done. This was not freedom but a cultural movement, a cult of sorts.

Most informal videos from 2016 and beyond show Mooji surrounded by mostly attractive looking European females who all look like they wash with the same soap and use the same hair products. When a whole group of different people look like they smell the same, you know something is up.

It was when I started noticing this female thing and that his messages were becoming increasingly distorted and changed from freedom to actually entrapping. He used to say "you don't need to know anything" and now he was saying that "you must know that it is true" and "you don't want it enough yet" and a whole mixed bag of negative affirmations. I could see in his videos that he was saying things to program specific females and to get them to think in certain ways.

I feel a little sorry for him, and that I don't think this is what he wanted. But I also hold him accountable, because this is not the truth he originally spoke of nor the freedom, nor the peace, nor the authenticity that he once had.

Instead of preaching the good news, he preaches an entrapping method of becoming confused with ones identity. He tells people they are something that they are not, and then asks them to demonstrate to him that they are what they are not. Nothingness and Consciousness and The Way may be real experiences, but they are not required by any means to live a happy life in harmony with ones surroundings. Instead of just pointing to basic fundamentals, he now leads people on a goose chase that only ends when they choose to give it up.

In summation, I am very sorry to be writing this, as I once admired the man. But now I feel it is time to discuss why so many people are seeing that Mooji has lost his touch and is probably doing more harm than good.

Corboy suggests that xivoparig's post on August 10 and NSH999 on August 11 post together formed a powerful
challenge, a one two punch.

A little later on August 11, this arrives:

Quote

https://forum.culteducation.com/read.php?12,135827,page=10

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota
Date: August 11, 2018 12:49PM

What matters in my life:


Am I being truthful?

Am I being sincere?

Am I living from fearless love or fear-based ideas?


And that's all, folks! Really, there is no "we" or groups whatsoever when it comes to truth.

Everyone will end up finding that one out sooner or later, and they might still be in a group(apparently), but they'll know WHAT is running the show.they will know their aloneness.

NSH999 replied (abbreviated by Corboy for brevity

Quote

Sorry if my ideas appear confrontational, as I am surprised by the number of generalized beliefs in this above statement being proposed as real wisdom. It almost reads as a defense of Mooji by dismissal of the issues in this thread and should probably be removed. Again, sorry if I am not interpreting correctly, but there are striking issues in those statement being made.

The correct question is not "what matters in my life"

but "how do my choices I make impact the lives of others"

one is looking selfishly inward to the ego itself, while the other uses the last remnants of any ego to serve other people in kindness.


To NSH999 civil comment, Mara Fiota replies

Quote

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota
Date: August 11, 2018 01:52PM

i forgot why i stopped posting stuff on spiritual forums and facebook and shit

dude okayokeh

wisdom i don't know her, and i look forward to become dumber

i guess i sorta wanted to remind folks not to waste their energy on blame so much,and on the outside

'cause in the end it doesn't really matter. AND. it doesn't transform stuff
but that's just me. and boy if anyone says that personality doesn't have relative existence they can cash me outside

all that you've written i can see how it can be true, and not.same with what i've written

i've always respected people who do their own research, as you seem to have been doing

best of luck

When Corboy suggested this was a distraction, Mara Fiota replied

Quote

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota
Date: August 12, 2018 06:33AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

>
> Mara Fiota wrote "What matters is my life".
>
I wrote:what matters IN my life,so take a chill pill first of all

was it a distraction, what I said, really? or is what you're doing (which for all intents and purposes is gossiping) distraction?
meaning, distraction from real happiness and freedom which lies in OURSELF, ALREADY?
when we stop waiting for anybody's(whoever they might be) validation.

we don't have to check in with anybody - no gods or gurus or avatars or saints

but nobody wants to do that, 'cause nobody wants to grow the fuck up
god forbid we stop exposing and set the world on "the right course"

godamnit nobody minds their own business and i'm still not used to it FUCK

Moderator intervention

[forum.culteducation.com]

Quote

Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: rrmoderator
Date: August 13, 2018 08:44AM

Mara Fiota:

Please take a "chill pill" and stop judging people.

This thread is not about victim bashing and insulting people.

This thread is about asking the question is "Mooji a cult?"

Please don't distract from the subject of this thread and review the rules. Personal attacks are not allowed according to the rules that you agreed to before posting here.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2018 09:56PM by corboy.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Mara Fiota ()
Date: September 10, 2018 12:58AM

It does not
> mean that you become totally mindless and spout
> the same phrases over and over again, without even
> considering what you are actually saying.
>
> It does not mean you lose your moral compass,
> either, and have no idea of right and wrong.



but you DO become mindless in the best way. you DO.
you see there really is no mind, or that all is mind - same thing.You fall in the paradox, and you stop being confused.


if by moral compass you mean the particular moral-social-religious conditioning you have grown up with, you kinda do. you have a new compass now, and your actions might at times be severely misunderstood by offend-able people, and god knows there's a lot of us out there



>
> By the way, Jesus quoted scriptures in the bible -
> as most scholars of Christianity agree, he was an
> observant Jew, and possibly a rabbi.


Okay, I've just never seen it anywhere



>
> The reason Mooji hints that people don't read
> classical Adviata is because he doesn't want them
> to know how he distorts and mis-uses these
> teachings.


Or maybe because he knows, as YOu know, that you don't need advaita, or scriptures of any kind

you can never know anyone's motives, and you don't have to.have fun!HAVE FUN!adress what you can address, which is your own misuses of teachings, be sincere,as much as you can, and don't judge yourself

you'll stop wanting to be agreed with, as well, which i can't begin to describe how simple it is

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 10, 2018 02:31PM

Mara Fiota Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
> but you DO become mindless in the best way. you
> DO.
> you see there really is no mind, or that all is
> mind - same thing.You fall in the paradox, and you
> stop being confused.
>
>

I'm not confused.

Then I read the above sentence and I became confused, because it made no sense! I think maybe this forum should be for those who genuinely want to discuss cult activity in a serious manner. Maybe those who want to worship at a guru's feet can comment on a forum specifically designed for their worship? No offence intended!

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Wombat ()
Date: September 10, 2018 04:36PM

I am disappointed that this forum is not employing critical thinking when looking at evidence against Mooji. In my view it loses a lot of credibility when evidence is not properly evaluated, but is instead collated to promote a point of view.

I am referring to Corboy reposting the xivoparig material and then selectively reposting the comments that support his view, while ignoring my comments that it cannot be true as the when, where and how do not add up to where Mooji was that entire year! Happytown even posted "I think that xivoparig knows that the details of their post are verifiably false since Mooji spends most of his time in Portugal. I think it is further distraction and dilution of discussion."

Similarly disturbing is drawing conclusions such as this: "The reason Mooji hints that people don't read classical Adviata is because he doesn't want them to know how he distorts and mis-uses these teachings. I'm not suggesting he is illiterate or too lazy to read. I am suggesting that he doesn't want people to explore any traditional teachings at length, he just wants them to blindly follow him. Mindlessly." This is pure opinion presented as fact. I know for a fact that Monte Sahaja has an 'Advaita Library' with hundreds of books from a very wide range of authors. Hardly likely that Mooji does not want his followers to read books...

I was hoping for proper, measured debate, not a witch hunt!



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/10/2018 04:38PM by Wombat.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: swissalyst ()
Date: September 10, 2018 07:01PM

Cultic studies is a young field, and inevitably evaluations will be largely subjective rather than quantititative. As a starting point, though, here is the Lalich and Langone checklist from the [csj.org] (now the International Cultic Studies Association) website. To what extent are the following statements true?

Quote

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry -- or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar -- or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations).

The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members\' participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

The group is preoccupied with making money.

Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

The most loyal members (the \"true believers\") feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: rrmoderator ()
Date: September 10, 2018 11:33PM

Wombat:

"Witch hunt"?

You are here as an apologist and to dismiss criticism.

"Proper measured debate"?

Seems like you are trying to control and/or dominate this thread.

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