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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 17, 2018 10:16AM

corboy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> And, it could be that over the years, Moo has
> become more controlling of his followers because
> he's less able to function in an adult capacity.
>
> Look at the guru life Moo now lives...he's waited
> on by an entourage. He lives in settings where the
> entire day revolves around him. Only those who pay
> large sums of money and believe in him get to stay
> there with him
>
> He can ignore any question he cannot answer.
>
> Its all the advantages of living as an adored
> child but with full access to all adult pleasures
> and no need to pay taxes.


Indeed it is, Corboy!
I have it in mind to go over there to Portugal with a couple of friends and try to infiltrate the Moo Cult. I would very much like to see first hand exactly what is going on over there....
I wonder for instance, if a worker falls and breaks his leg while working (for free) on building the Moo palace, if they have insurance in place? Would the worker be taken care of, or left to fend for himself?
What if one of Moo's girlfriends gets pregnant and has the baby? Do they raise it there at the ashram? I notice they have a "no children" policy there... Will the mother and child be ex-communicated? Left to work it out for themselves?

I really would like to go over there, undercover, and see for myself what is happening there. I think I will be immune to their Jedi Mind Tricks after all I have learnt.... I hope so, anyway!

Are you reading this, Mooji, Old Son? I am coming over to investigate you and your inappropriate dealings!! You will never even no I have been and gone! I look innocent enogh, lol. ;)

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 17, 2018 08:25PM

About going to the ashram to see for oneself.it is probably not worth the effort or the expense.

Anything reported by an unbiased observer who reports having posed as a Mooji disciple will have his or her reports dismissed by devotees who claim that a non devotee lacks the right attitude.

Two, none of us knows in advance the extent to which we can be influenced and lose boundary identity when we enter a closed group follow its routine, its diet and its sleep wake cycle. Sitting amidst a crowd kept waiting for a gurus arrival can have a powerful effect. Dr. Sudhir Kakar, a psychiatrist visiting an ashram noted this in himself.

More here:

[forum.culteducation.com]

Lots of times gurus keep the crowds waiting. Great show business, it builds suspense. It also shows who is boss. And it reinforces the submission of those waiting. Keeping us waiting is a display of ego. And if you say this is Indian tradition, India is a rank ordered society with no inhibition about displaying superiority over subordinates.

No, what happens here is an enactment of power vs submission. No need to dress in black leather or flourish a whip. Trouble is that in most guru situations no one is allowed to discuss power and discuss limits or a way to signal when things are being taken too far and its time to stop.

No, best to leave the undercover visits to trained persons and whose sponsoring organizations pay the expenses.

Besides, do you want Moo to get any of your money?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2018 09:33PM by corboy.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 19, 2018 06:18AM

Thank you Corboy,

I read some of the stuff written here on Cult Education via the link you posted and all I can say is: Wow! I probably need to do a lot more reading about all this kind of thing!

Trance Induction:

I knew that watching Moo's videos on YouTube made me feel relaxed and I thought there was something just a little bit 'addictive' about them. I couldn't put my finger on it and no-one seemed to believe me when I talked about it, anyway.

But now it really makes sense. The soft voice, the long, long pauses and the sustained eye contact from Moo. This creates a false sense of intimacy, like you know the person, when of course you do not know Moo at all. You tend to trust people you know. You tend to believe them.

This relaxed feeling makes you really open to suggestion. You don't try and question things when you are tranced out.

The group hysteria thing:

Like, everyone wants to be part of a group, so when the group worship Moo, you kind of feel like going along with it. It's sort of inexplicable the way you want to behave like everyone else. It just happens. We are social creatures.

Cultural disphoria:

I twigged on this aspect myself. They use all the props, like the robes and the beads and the photos of gurus in the background. It makes the whole show seem 'official'. Because these 'props' are from a non-western culture, it's easier for a western person to be fooled by them. We don't like to question things that come from a different culture, because it would seem rude or ignorant to do so. So we think "when in Rome...do as the Roman's do!". It's really destabilising on a personal level.

Confusing Message:

What Moo teaches is vague in the extreme. It's contradictory, in a lot of incidences. When you hear a lot of contradictory things from someone who you look up to and trust, it makes you feel 'undone' or just confused, I guess. But when this confusion is coupled with the whole group dynamic, the intimacy you feel for the guru, then it has the effect of making you think you have heard something "profound".

All this happened to me! I am an educated person and really not that naive and yet it all happened to me!

It was interesting reading what Sudhir Kakar had to say in the book "Shamans, Mystics and Doctors." On page 147 he says that a lot of the guru's followers had a kind of child-like mentality (after the brain-washing, that is) in that they understood the guru's message in a very black and white fashion. There were no grey areas for them. This type of thinking is used an escape from adult responsibilities and normal, complex and meaningful adult life.

Strangely enough, this is exactly what I think I was after when I started watching Moo videos. It was escapism for me. Pure escapism. I wanted someone to tell me all the answers, because I was exhausted by life.

Thankfully I am OK now and back in business. I'm not exhausted, just extremely curious. A good way to be, I think.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 19, 2018 10:20PM

If you had that relaxation experience with Moo's videos, and found yourself wanting to isolate with them to the exclusion of outside friendships and tasks, be careful.

If just his videos had that effect on you, living in his ashram, with higher doses of this stuff, the days arranged around Moo, people obsessed with Moo -- you'd likely be yet more affected.

And, here is a selection bias at work.

Who is likely to spend the money to go to Moo's ashram if only for a brief visit?

Those persons who felt affected by Moo's videos. Persons skeptical, disgusted or not interested after watching his videos are less likely to go to his ashram.

Result: the crowd which assembles at the Moo ashram is not neurologically diverse. That crowd is a self selected assembly of persons less likely to be skeptical, more likely to be biased to adore.

Perhaps some in the crowd are skeptical but I suspect far fewer than for a crowd
at a Moo satsang in London.

Think too of the situation in Tiruvannamalai (Tiru) where Moo grew his fame.

He was playing to a pre selected audience.

For who is likely to spend money to go to India, then spend more money and take the time to go to Tiru when they could go to all the other places in India?

The ones likely to go to Tiru are persons with some curiosity about Ramana Maharshi, or who are in the company of travelers with an interest in Ramana Maharshi, which means they are persons who are not bored or annoyed with
non dual chit chat.

So this means that persons likely to check out the satsang scene in Tiru would have been persons interested or at least curious.

A safe audience for any ambitious person seeking to grow a circle of disciples. They're already there because of Ramana Maharshi. They hear chatter about other
satsang teachers in the vicinity.

Persons bored or skeptical of that sort of thing are less likely to attend satsangs.

Those predisposed for recruitment are likely to go to satsangs.

Also there's a small set of stories that are used in guru talk and have
been used for centuries.

Now these are routinely used by the Western born commercial teachers.

[forum.culteducation.com]

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 19, 2018 11:08PM

The Brain is a Machine For Jumping to Conclusions

[www.apa.org]

Two Kinds of Thinking System One and System Two

System 1 - Our pattern seeking, story telling mind. In reaction to uncertainty or confusion or stress, can use bits of information to create a story

System 1 can lead us into bad decisions unless balanced out with System 2


System 2 - Critical thinking, fact checking, awareness that a recommendation from a beloved friend is not necessarily trustworthy

In honest sales, true education and mature leadership, System 1 and System 2 thinking are combined and enhance each other.

In a cultic relationship, it is forbidden to apply System 2 thinking to the leader, the group, the teaching method.


In honest recruitment, system one and system two thought are used to recommend
an organization, person or relationship that will *continue* to support system one and system two thinking. In dishonest recruitment, you have a display of system one and system two thinking but it is used to recruit for an organization or relationship which, once you are in it, will, over time, devalue system two thinking and ruin your capacity to engage in critical thinking toward that person or organization.

(If say, coaching is genuine coaching, System 1 and System 2 thought are combined throughout. When it is indoctrination masquerading as coaching, you are forbidden to apply System 2 to the coaching method itself. )

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 20, 2018 05:54AM

Thanks again, Corboy.

What you say: "the crowd assembled around Moo are not neurologically diverse." That gave me a good giggle.... Because, no, most of these people are as mad as hatters! But they are very sincere, genuine people who earnestly seek some kind of meaning in life. This makes them vulnerable to exploitation.

I was one of these people! I was slightly mad, I guess, at the time I got into Sri Moo Baba Poo-Head.

The metaphorical stories that you mentioned:

Yep, Old Moo uses one of these... a variation of the dog and bone story. He talks about suffering being the ceasation of desire. He even says he got the story from his own teacher- Papaji.

It's interesting that there are a lot of metaphors in the bible, too. So people can read whatever they like into these stories. These stories are "user friendly" and so they have survived all this time.

Critical thinking:

Yeah, any kind of mystical tradition side-swipes critical thinking in a big way. Then they present this as a good thing.... like its special or something. But it isn't special, it's just a fast track to lunacy.... if you don't also engage critical thinking in your regular life, 98% of the time.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: September 20, 2018 12:55PM

Hi! I'm posting here again after a long time - you can see my posts at the start of the thread.

I never went to Monte Sahaja, but I've been in Mooji's presence at a retreat and an intensive. I definitely felt pulled into groupthink, as you can see in my earlier posts, though I did sneak a copy of Thomas Keating's 'An Invitation to Love' with me to ZMar, and read it furtively like a samizdat text. I must say that being in a crowd around Mooji is astonishing, as you feel like an iron filing being pulled towards an enormous magnet! (Maybe it's like this around George Clooney too...). The pull is to Mooji's energy, more than to his teachings - I never practiced self-enquiry in any meaningful way.

I haven't listened to Mooji myself in over a year. I'm no longer on a spiritual path, and my 'gurus' now are people like Tristan Harris and Cal Newport, who help me make sense of how to exist in this changing world and to understand and recover from my years-old nervous breakdown. I recently went to a Jaron Lanier talk, and when that dreadlocked tech guru played his exotic instruments at the end I got a powerful Mooji music flashback!. I also am studying the book 'The Organised Mind' and have taken up the daily practice of bikram yoga.

But for me, Mooji was for a period very useful (indeed, a Godsend) during a time when I was housebound, seriously mentally ill and non-functional. I've just been reading that the brain has two states - focused concentration or daydreaming. Well, mental illness robbed me of both of those. All I had was a physiological state of extreme terror and anxiety, fear, resentment, trauma, and hatred of self and others.

Yet Mooji was able to cut through that, speaking on the top level ("consciousness speaking to consciousness about consciousness"), reaching my mind before and beyond its shattering into mental illness. His hypnotic videos could quieten my mind and body when I was in this state of horrific anxiety. In satsang I witnessed his love and patience to all, and it soothed me.

I do believe Mooji is a man of great wisdom, kindness and grace, though, yes he is too attached to his status and identity as a guru. It would be nice if he spent a month of each year living as a civilian away from the circus. And he doesn't show you how to live in the world, how to exist outside of his bubble, and the temptation is to become addicted to him.

I can see that ashrams can be very comforting places for mentally ill people, but they can also be very dangerous places when you can't stay in them forever and they don't teach you how to manage your mental illness and function in the regular working world.

I wanted to mention this video which is full-strength Mooji, showing the inner circle bliss bubble:
[www.youtube.com]

I do not believe we will ever see 'Inner Circle' people publically renouncing Mooji as a fundamentally flawed personality in the way that happened with the petition against Andrew Cohen. It's also not going to be revealed to all be some abusive tantric sex cult! I think the critique is more subtle than that. The 'Atma Yoga' post here is very good: [gururating.org]

Finally - I wanted to mention that I remember being gripped when a 'doubting Thomas' spoke up during a 10-Day retreat a couple of years ago. I was watching the paid-for live stream.

On perhaps the second day, one of Mooji's inner circle found this young man sitting somewhere outside during satsang. This was a breach of protocol as it's obligatory to attend. They had a conversation - 'why aren't you in the hall?' - and he was persuaded to come inside and address his questions to Mooji.

When he spoke, he said something like that he had been watching Mooji on Youtube for years, but now that he was at the ashram he had serious doubts about Mooji/the teachings/the place.

Mooji was initially quite cross, telling the man that he was arrogant, and if that was how he felt then maybe he shouldn't be there.

After their long exchange, the inner circle guy took the mike again and said "That's not what he told me he was going to say to you!" Everybody laughed and some emotional weight left the room. Nobody had expected Mooji to be so questioned.

Many of the following speakers referred to this exchange. One woman was quite upset, saying "I can't believe that someone would come to this place which was built out of love and doubt you, Mooji". Mooji by now had calmed down and was being placatory and reasonable about the interruption. He said that the man would be able to stay for the rest of the retreat if he wanted, or he could go home early and get a refund. I believe he chose the latter.

At the time I was into watching satsang and it felt like really gripping theatre to see someone speaking directly to Mooji questioning the whole enterprise. Unfortunately this episode didn't make it onto Youtube, because only one or two satsangs from a retreat are scheduled to be uploaded and this wasn't one of them.



Edited 6 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2018 01:20PM by i yam what i yam.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 20, 2018 02:16PM

i yam what i yam Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi! I'm posting here again after a long time -
> you can see my posts at the start of the thread.
>

....Unfortunately this episode didn't
> make it onto Youtube, because only one or two
> satsangs from a retreat are scheduled to be
> uploaded and this wasn't one of them.


I think that particular video wasn't uploaded as it showed Moo being less than kind, leas than loving. Quite a bit less, I would think. These type of videos don't suit the image of Moo that the group want to portray, so they are disposed of.

There is also a video in circulation showing Moo giving an exorcism, but of course you will never find this on the official Moojiji channel, now.

Thanks for the link to the Youtube video of Moo with a very emotionally disturbed woman. It was quite sickening, but I did watch about 7 or 8 minutes of it. I notice that this video has 'comments disabled' (comments censored!) like so many of the other Moojiji videos.

I felt sorry for the woman. I got the feeling that her distress was being exploited by the camera and the Moo group in order to make for interesting viewing! They are trying to make emotional distress look like some kind of spiritual awakening. Very poor form from the Moo Cult. Very, very sad and exploitative.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: September 20, 2018 02:39PM

"I think that particular video wasn't uploaded as it showed Moo being less than kind, leas than loving. Quite a bit less, I would think. These type of videos don't suit the image of Moo that the group want to portray, so they are disposed of."

No, it is announced in advance which day's satsangs will be streamed on Facebook and uploaded to Youtube. So there was no conspiracy, this was simply not one of the ones that were to be shared.

I do see that the Mooji media team edit satsangs and sometimes moments where Mooji is being ratty may be cut. As I said I am not on a spiritual path any more and I get that an enlightened being should be judged by higher standards than anyone else. Because otherwise I'd say well he's a 60-something diabetic dude surrounded by crazy and annoying people, it's acceptable he might once in a while display human traits like irritation; it's remarkable how rarely this happens.

I'm sure there are lots of videos available which show Mooji performing exorcisms as it was a quite common thing that would happen in satsangs.

Anyway, I feel myself being pulled into defending Mooji, it's not my interest really. But beware of your own bad faith. Things are not all-good or all-bad.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/20/2018 02:44PM by i yam what i yam.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: September 20, 2018 03:22PM

My view - based on my own personal experience - is that Mooji provides comfort to the mentally-ill, but that ultimately he's a dead-end and a bit of a trap, and you need to be able to move on from him.

If your view is that Mooji exploits the mentally ill, because even if he may provide them comfort, it's ultimately done in furtherance of his own veneration and aggrandisement, well, fair enough, that's your view.

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