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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Simplyput ()
Date: September 23, 2018 02:12AM

Mooji’s problem never was the fact that he said the person was not real. He said that the persona we create during our lives is not real. That in reality we are source and nothing more. That there is nothing to add to ourselves to become something more. This all is true, even if he doesn’t believe it anymore.

His problem is that he became hypocritical. He says that through seeing, one can reach an enlightened state that he holds internally. By seeing that you are god, the bees, and the trees you can realize that there is no boundaries. That you are source and nothing more. He forgets to realize that he says there is nothing that we can add or take away from our consciousness. That we are not singular object such as god, but a we and not an I. He always mentions I Am but never mentions that we are not individuals. In reality we are a we not an I. And that is our truth. He has never mentioned that before. This is because he holds onto to his own ego.

He is also forgets that we are not physical at all, but formless. He is not enlightened. It is a misnomer. There is no such thing.

He associates one experience he had with his growth into enlightenment. An experience he had in Papaji’s Ashram where everything became still in his head through seeing the trees and the streets(the sense of I Am). The thing is, one experience can not make someone “enlightened.” No experience can. This is because enlightenment is a prospect that does not exist. In reality we are source and nothing more. We can only be, there is no phrase that we can add to our identity that holds truth. Stillness is overrated and so is seeing. If he was “enlightened” most of his followers would be too.

This goes to main problem that he tells people of a state they can reach only after listening to him for a given time. A state that will come in the future with only enough stillness and self reflection. A state that has arrived in him through seeing who he truly is. In reality he now sees source as separate from himself, that he is not a we and this is because of his own ego. He behaves like a true cult leader, allowing people to kiss his feet and praise him incessantly. He and his people have proped himself up to god-like levels. This is because people are looking to him for knowledge that is already found within. This is not through seeing but being. There is nothing we can see externally that we can become. We can only be the non-physical element in our heart space. I would not be surprised either way about the accusations leveled against Mooji.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: September 23, 2018 10:23PM

Mooji criticised as a false prophet in the comments here - with lots of quoting scripture!:

[www.youtube.com]

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 24, 2018 05:39AM

Thanks i yam what i yam,

I watched most of the video you posted in your link and read the comments.

Of course a devout Christian is going to have a lot of problems with Moo, as they are very suspicious of anything 'new age' or occult. It is totally against their religion to be into such things.

Moo appleals to the crowd who want to escape tradional religion. So he constantly references Christ, the Buddha, God, even Mohammad, to make these seekers more comfortable. It's "religion lite" for those who have rejected traditional religion. That way he can draw in people who already have devotional urges.

But what I am getting at, is that Moo models himself on Jesus and compares himself to Jesus a lot, but does it in a cunning way. He also compares himself to Buddha, too.

He is not going to come right out and say he is the next messiah, he will never do that, of course. But he is putting it out there is a subtle way, for those who already have their boundaries collapsed through his brain-washing techniques.

He compares himself to "The Father" in the video you mentioned earlier. "This father will never reject you", I think was the name of the video you mentioned. Notice how Catholics say 'Our Father' when referring to God? I don't think it's a co-incidence that Moo wants to be our father! I think it is a very, very cunning ploy that he is using.

In an interview that was posted much earlier on in this thread, Moo is asked by a interviewer if he is running a cult. Moo says "Was Jesus running a kind of cult?" So he compares himself to Jesus. A very high and lofty comparison to make, and one that is not lost on his starry-eyed followers!

He has the long robe, the beard, the long hair.

Next he wil come out and say that he is being persecuted, just like Jesus was. This is something a lot of cult leaders use. His followers will close ranks around him and further cut themselves off from the out-side world.

We kind of know how this kind of thing will end, and it isn't pretty.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: i yam what i yam ()
Date: September 24, 2018 03:51PM

About the energetic shift that I ascribe to Mooji -

Going to a Mooji intensive and a ZMar 7-day silent retreat did have a really powerful effect for me, even if it wasn't exactly the one intended.

I had previously seen all manner of mental health professionals, whether specialising in CBT, addiction recovery, etc. And for the most part they were 'witnessed' from within my mental illness but they couldn't pull me out of it.

I was so cut off from my own energy, my own life-force; dissociated; not recognising myself in the mirror. I don't mean multiple personalities, I mean just on the far side of an anxiety disorder so that years earlier I'd stopped being me any more.

The power of the whole Mooji experience started to pull me out of it. When he talks to the camera on video, even if he isn't saying much it has an effect on the level of the nervous system - it calmed me down. Then when I saw him dealing with people who came up to ask him questions (and these people were often annoying people that I could not have tolerated for two minutes!), he responded to them with endless compassion, understanding, patience, and, yes, love.

It must have been easier for him that these were people in his domain, and who to varying degrees worshipped or had bought into him. But, still, it was powerful. There IS love in Mooji's satsang, even if we're not comfortable that it's used in veneration of him.

I had been so lost in my own spiralling thoughts, that hearing all the stories of people talking at satsang, with their own grief and Mooji's comfort for them, reminded me that there was more to the world than my own collapsed pysche, my own skyscraper-high fears.

Seeing people line the road when Mooji walked past, first on Youtube and then being there in person, was also very powerful.

Mooji of course is VERY connected to his own energy, and his energy level is through the roof. Of course I was affected by this when my own energy was so low and repressed.

I believe I could have undergone 10,000 hours of mainstream therapy in psychiatrist's book-lined studies, without it producing the energetic shift that I got from being in the presence of Mooji.

Ultimately I couldn't fully buy into Mooji because of my own Christian background, and it's not in my nature to worship a man. There's lots more I find questionable, such as his dismassal of the value of other practices, his not teaching you how to be in the world, etc. I don't find the content of his teaching to be useful. Judged on content alone, pretty much anyone would be better listening to TED talks than Mooji. But the value is in the energy.

What really helped me about Mooji was not his teaching, but learning how to connect to and manage my own energy. This ultimately required a physical discipline to cultivate - I've attended 300 yoga classes in the past two years, kundalini and then hot and Bikram.

But, still, I must recognise that was Mooji who jump-started my car. And then, fortunately, I left the garage. I remember during the final bhajans at ZMar realising that I was not able to sing with all my heart, that I wasn't fully into this, I didn't entirely feel Mooji in my heart. But still it had started to transform me.

If it hadn't been Mooji, perhaps it could have been something else powerful, energetic, and a bit cultlike. But I feel like I needed something a bit mad and bigger than me, to puncture the walls of my own deeply entrenched long-term mental illness.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/24/2018 03:56PM by i yam what i yam.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 24, 2018 09:22PM

Maybe it was a combo of Moo and the community that has formed around Moo?

Many years ago, I volunteered on road crew for one of the 1990s California AIDS Rides.

Nearly 2000 people rode their bicycles 450 miles to Los Angeles after a year of fundraising for AIDS care and research - and intensively training for this event.

And all participants had lost children, friends and partners to the disease; many were living with the disease.

This added up to a self selected group with a shared purpose, shared priorities, raw emotions.

On Day One, we arrived in camp, and there was a tent set up as a meditation space.

I decided to go inside, do a bit of zen sitting. I did not expect anything except to calm myself down a bit.

As I approached, I looked through the entrance and saw several people on chairs, sitting silently.

As I walked through the entrance, I felt a sensation, as though
a breeze or spiderweb had brushed my face.

As I stepped inside, I felt suddenly stunned as though there was some shift
in atmosphere, then felt I'd stepped into some intense energy.

Amazed, I found a corner outside the circle and sat down.

No one was saying anything, I saw no apparent focus, the group sat silently.

I sat outside the circle of chairs on the ground, on my butt.

Inside, I felt a ball or clot of confused, painful emotion start in my chest
and rise upwards. I was scared I'd start crying in public.

I took a chance, sat still, allowed that clot of emotion to rise up -
and suddenly, it vanished and my awareness and emotions felt scrubbed clean,
as though a storm had blown out to sea and the sun was out.

Again, felt like my emotions and mind had been cleaned, like a dirty window
suddenly clear, pristine perfect, all clear sky and sunshine, a clean slate.

I did remember I had to return to my work assignment, and kept track of the time.

I wrote all this out because this experience was not generated by a guru. I arrived after the group had been sitting in its circle and was something of an outsider.

I dare wonder if that group of silent people created a shared zone of unconscious accord that could have a settling effect on a sensitive, empathic
person arriving later to the scene.

Maybe the fellowship of disciples creates something like this around Moo.


This state of togetherness, a shared settling down and intense, enlivening clarity can calm a person's anguish and
give some much needed space to apply insight and healing?

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 25, 2018 04:57AM

Hi i am what i am,

It's interesting that You said of Moo "I don't find the content of his teachings useful." But did you ever find find them useful in any way?

I kind of thought I did find the teachings useful at first, but I could not tell you how or why. That is what bothered me so much.

I guess that's why I became so suspicious of Moo. There I was, feeling mildly spaced out and euphoric from teachings that didn't mean anything. How could it be? That's when I began to think that something must have effected my brain in some way. It was such a creepy feeling. I did not like it and it still upsets me.

Now I know that I am susceptible to trance induction, but it still upsets me that this kind of thing could happen without my consent. It's like a violation to me.

You describe something that was mainly positive, but for me it was all bad. There were no positives in it at all! In fact, it has made me feel that the world is not a great place.

I am recovering, but I guess it takes time. I try to get out every day and do all the things I love doing.

I know that being in a crowd of excited people can have a very uplifting effect. This also happened to me once or twice and it was a good feeling. (No brain- washing involved in these instances and so totally harmless.)

I remember once I was invited to the football- but I really can't stand football, I don't see the point in it and it's boring. However on this occasion I was invited to a private corporate box and I thought I should go, just for the experience. Well... It was very, very exciting to be part of something!! Luxury, unlimited food and wine, a crowd going wild, atmosphere, enjoyment.

I was the same as you, I "got nothing from the teachings", as in, I didn't know who was winning the football match. I didn't understand the rules of the football game. None of it made any sense to me at all! But it was fun to be part of the crowd, like, I dunno, it made me feel good. Group euphoria.

I think that's what cults play on. Pretty much anyone is susceptible to group euphoria. As for the love you mentioned, I think that love is faked by Moo himself. But the followers of Moo are most likely genuine loving people. It's such a shame that they can't direct that love towards themselves, rather than an exploitative old guy with a Jesus fixation.

Or go home and love their families and friends, rather than kissing an old guy's feet. And paying money for the privillage.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 25, 2018 06:13AM

I yam what i yam,

When you say that Moo responded to people with "endless compassion, understanding, patience and, yes, love", I know you are convinced and nothing will change your mind. It doesn't matter, but I will post something very, very personal here for the sake of other readers.

I used to work in a job where I delt directly with people in crisis situations. Some people were extremely emotionally distressed, crying, howling, hysterical, yelling, collapsing on the group in grief. Some people were psychotic, out of touch with reality, confused, incoherent, very, very unstable.

Some people were drug-addicted, violent, verbally abusive and would even throw punches at me. It could be very scary and upsetting.

I think I had a lot worse to deal with than Old Moo!! And yet I acted towards all these people with compassion, talking quietly to them, reassuring them, patting them on the shoulder and making them cups of tea, handing them tissues, etc. All the time being extremely respectful towards their family or friends and co-ordinating help for these people with other staff members. Phew.

People I worked with would comment to me "you are so nice to everyone, all the time." I would reply, "look, believe me, I'm like that at work, but I have plenty of bad moments at home. I get grumpy, just like anyone else. I get angry sometimes, doesn't everyone?"

One of my friends inadvertently had cause to see me at work one day and she said "wow, you are amazing. I don't know how you do it. I couldn't stand having to be around those people... they swear at you and everything... but you don't even bat an eye."
My reply was "ummm, yeah, you get used to the yelling and swearing and the rest, in the end you don't even think of those things... They are just part of the job. You even laugh about it with other staff, on your tea-break. You can't take any of that stuff personally."

I genuinely did feel sorry for the people I had to deal with. (About 90% of them, anyway.) It wasn't for me to judge them, I just had a job to do. I am a compassionate person, but I'm not a saint. Never-the-less, I was able to show care and compassion indiscriminately while I was on the job. The more experience I had, the easier it got. After years and years, it becomes second nature to act compassionately, it isn't even all that hard to do.

Moo is just a guy with a job to do. He only has to do it for a few hours at a time. He gets plenty of tea-breaks. He is a performer. In another life, if he were better looking, he would probably be one of those illusionists who perform on stage in Vagas.

No-one is throwing punches at him or swearing at him. He has it easy! The people who come to him already believe in him. He does ridicule people and make fun of them, in front of everyone, which is something I would never do to my clients. I would have lost my job, if I had done that.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 25, 2018 06:27AM

Alexandra Stein has identified a remarkable thing about cults and abusive relationships:

They destabilize us, we crave safety, and because we have been led to drop outside friendships and distrust our own thoughts and emotions, the only source of safety we can imagine is the source of our disorientation and fear -- the abusive person or abusive cult.

We run toward and cling to the same entity that is destabilizing us.

Stein lists 5 characteristics of an authoritarian group.

1) The first of these characteristics is that the leader is both charismatic and authoritarian. Without charisma, the leader would be unable to draw people to him or herself.

What distinguishes a charismatic cult leader (or abusive single predator) from a charismatic person delighting us at a party is -- the cult leader or abusive partner is after CONTROL. You are not a person, you are an action figure for them, like Barbie, Ken or GI Joe.

2.) Cults and abusive relationships are isolating. The US Marine Corps does not train you to despise, fear and avoid your family and outside friends; Cults and abusive partners do! The abusive leader or partner keeps you off balance.

Isolation goes deeper than this.
Quote

"People in totalist organisations are pressed so tightly together that their individuality is erased – as are any trusting interactions among them. Everyone is a ‘friend’ but true friendship is suppressed as a diversion from, and a threat to, attachment to the cause, the leader and the group. In fact, far from finding true comradeship or companionship, followers face a triple isolation: from the outside world, from each other within the closed system, and from their own internal dialogue, where clear thinking about the group might arise."

3)

The third element of totalism is the total ideology, or, as Newman called it: ‘A historical totality that has no beginning, middle or end’. The exclusive belief system is controlled entirely by the leader.

4) Fear. For a totalist system to wield complete control, the leader must tap fear – this is the fourth element of totalism. The process of brainwashing that totalist systems engage in is one of psychological, coercive manipulation where the leader or group alternates terror with ‘love’..."

5)creation of deployable followers is the fifth characteristic of such groups. Marina, also recruited to the Tendency through therapy, rose to become a favoured member, working full-time on the group’s National Alliance paper, along with other tasks. She neglected her two children all while witnessing money laundering, fraud and other families being pulled apart. She was so loyal, she said: ‘I remember feeling like I would take a bullet for Fred.’

(Corboy note: friendship with such persons can lead you into the clutches of a predatory guru or group. These people may be totally unaware that they are routing new recruits towards their abusive leader. A friend who has become a deployable follower in a cult may recommend a therapist or bodyworker or merely talk about such a person in glowing terms. If you select that therapist or consult that bodyworker, you yourself may be recruited. It happened to me.)

Quoted from a longer essay by Alexandra Stein

Quote

People in totalist organisations are pressed so tightly together that their individuality is erased – as are any trusting interactions among them. Everyone is a ‘friend’ but true friendship is suppressed as a diversion from, and a threat to, attachment to the cause, the leader and the group. In fact, far from finding true comradeship or companionship, followers face a triple isolation: from the outside world, from each other within the closed system, and from their own internal dialogue, where clear thinking about the group might arise.

[aeon.co]

More food for thought from this same essay:

Quote

For a totalist system to wield complete control, the leader must tap fear – this is the fourth element of totalism. The process of brainwashing that totalist systems engage in is one of psychological, coercive manipulation where the leader or group alternates terror with ‘love’. Bowlby said that when we are frightened, we don’t simply run away from the fear, but run to a safe haven, ‘to someone…’ – and that someone is usually a person to whom we feel attached. But when the supposed safe haven is also the source of the fear, then running to that person is a failing strategy, causing the frightened person to freeze, trapped between approach and avoidance.

Mary Main, the renowned attachment researcher at the University of California, Berkeley, called this type of fear-based relationship ‘disorganised attachment’. This has a two-fold result: a confused emotional bonding to the source of fear in a failed attempt to seek comfort, and a cognitive dissociation, that is, the inability to think about one’s feelings. Fear or stress without escape – ‘fright without solution’, as attachment researchers refer to it – is a traumatic state that derails a person’s ability to think logically and clearly about the situation and therefore to take action to resolve it. Further, never achieving safety from the threat, they will keep returning to the relationship trying to gain that safety. Having disabled logical thinking about the traumatic relationship, the leader can then introduce even more of the fictitious ideology to explain away and redirect the follower’s terror.

It’s a positive feedback loop with a biochemical element: physiologically, the victim is engaged in an effort to manage their cortisol or anxiety levels by seeking proximity to a safe haven, but never succeeding in attaining adequate comfort. It is for this reason that we can predict that cultic systems will attempt to interfere with and control any alternative attachment relationships a person might have. To fail to do so would allow the follower to find a safe haven elsewhere and potentially escape the emotional and cognitive control of the group

Quote

Different groups have different fear-arousing themes and methods: the oncoming apocalypse, fear of outsiders, fear of punishment, and exhaustion, among many other types of threatening strategies. But the leader is always the sole saviour, the one who will lead them away from (or through) the fear they are experiencing to a wonderful safety, to paradise, to a perfect, transformed world.

Isolating and fear-driven systems led by authoritarian figures yield deployable followers who override their own survival needs and autonomy in the service of the group. This creation of deployable followers is the fifth characteristic of such groups.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: Sahara71 ()
Date: September 25, 2018 07:51AM

Corboy,

can you tell us what happened to you, ie, how you were recruited into a cult, if it isn't too personal?

You can post a link, if you have already told the story elsewhere.

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Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: September 25, 2018 11:19AM

I got recruited by a pal who was already involved in a group and was getting counseling from someone tied to it.

Pal kept mentioning this wonderful counselor. Name became familiar to me.

Some time later, I was dogpiled by lots of hardships all at once.

So, I consulted the counselor my pal was seeing and the rest as they say was history.

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