Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
NoWayNowhere
()
Date: September 08, 2019 09:13PM
Ananas Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> When people come here and want to discuss "from an
> objective point of view .Not from assumptions and
> hearsay stuff", when they want proof including
> names, adresses, phone numbers (can I leave my tax
> number out maybe?) they are
> totally blind for the FACT, that there is no proof
> whatsoever for M being fully realized/enlightened
> at all. And only because he himself
> (yes he does!) and his follwers repeat it 10000
> times and more and more people running there
> does not make it more true.
Ananas I agree with you that there can never be any proof of whether someone is enlightened or realized. Unfortunately there is no objective yardstick for that. But these questions are also beyond our possibilities of discussion here.
In the field of the mind, however, objectivity is helpful to agree on a view of the truth. Without objectivity, there are only different subjective views that go into confrontation.
Concerning the Mooji group it would be good if someone could publish something like a secretly recorded conversation or for example evidence or records that would prove the illegal smuggling of money to Portugal. Or someone would testify in court to illegal activities of the Mooji group.
As long as no such evidence is available and published, the discussiuon will probably continue whether the accusations are true or not.
-------------------------------------------------------
> When people come here and want to discuss "from an
> objective point of view .Not from assumptions and
> hearsay stuff", when they want proof including
> names, adresses, phone numbers (can I leave my tax
> number out maybe?) they are
> totally blind for the FACT, that there is no proof
> whatsoever for M being fully realized/enlightened
> at all. And only because he himself
> (yes he does!) and his follwers repeat it 10000
> times and more and more people running there
> does not make it more true.
Ananas I agree with you that there can never be any proof of whether someone is enlightened or realized. Unfortunately there is no objective yardstick for that. But these questions are also beyond our possibilities of discussion here.
In the field of the mind, however, objectivity is helpful to agree on a view of the truth. Without objectivity, there are only different subjective views that go into confrontation.
Concerning the Mooji group it would be good if someone could publish something like a secretly recorded conversation or for example evidence or records that would prove the illegal smuggling of money to Portugal. Or someone would testify in court to illegal activities of the Mooji group.
As long as no such evidence is available and published, the discussiuon will probably continue whether the accusations are true or not.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 08, 2019 11:01PM
This is more than a "discussion."
This has become a sanctuary because it is one of the few discussion venues not controlled by Moo loyalists.
This so called discussion has elicited allegations, yes, but allegations that together point to consistent patterns.
These consistencies are not admissible evidence.
However, however, these are useful to professional investigators.. journalists, and also police, and governments responsible for the welfare of their citizens.
Here are some topics from the CEI discussion of Moo that are worthy of scrutiny:
*allegations that Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins play a role at Monte Sahaja.
Rajneesh was subject of a documentary Wild, Wild West that recently aired on Netflix. This alone, for the safety and dignity of Portugal and the Portuguese, merits attention from the Portuguese government and media.
*Safety conditions at the Monte Sahaja work sites.
* How many adults and minor children live at Moo facilities.
*Immigration/legal status of those resident at Moo facilities.
*Whether people keep their names or take new names.
(All very important. What if there is another fire and people are missing? Portugal is suffering severely from wildfires and one fire necessitated evacuation of all MS residents to the nearby town.
*There are reports that Moo has or had close relations w the mayor of the nearby town. This surfaced as a topic in one of the so called "discussions" here. An excellent topic for a journalist to pursue. Remember, Moos group is there **because of Moo**. They did not of their fancy choose an obscure locale in Portugal. *Moo took the initiative, they followed Moo.*
A wealthy guru and ashram have a huge impact on the local economy of a cash-poor region.
This supplies a specific topic worthy of a news feature story.
The alleged presence and role of Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins at Moo facilies certainly deserve close attention.. from the Portuguese government and news media.
Which is why this discussion is bringing so many trolls to come visit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2019 11:15PM by corboy.
This has become a sanctuary because it is one of the few discussion venues not controlled by Moo loyalists.
This so called discussion has elicited allegations, yes, but allegations that together point to consistent patterns.
These consistencies are not admissible evidence.
However, however, these are useful to professional investigators.. journalists, and also police, and governments responsible for the welfare of their citizens.
Here are some topics from the CEI discussion of Moo that are worthy of scrutiny:
*allegations that Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins play a role at Monte Sahaja.
Rajneesh was subject of a documentary Wild, Wild West that recently aired on Netflix. This alone, for the safety and dignity of Portugal and the Portuguese, merits attention from the Portuguese government and media.
*Safety conditions at the Monte Sahaja work sites.
* How many adults and minor children live at Moo facilities.
*Immigration/legal status of those resident at Moo facilities.
*Whether people keep their names or take new names.
(All very important. What if there is another fire and people are missing? Portugal is suffering severely from wildfires and one fire necessitated evacuation of all MS residents to the nearby town.
*There are reports that Moo has or had close relations w the mayor of the nearby town. This surfaced as a topic in one of the so called "discussions" here. An excellent topic for a journalist to pursue. Remember, Moos group is there **because of Moo**. They did not of their fancy choose an obscure locale in Portugal. *Moo took the initiative, they followed Moo.*
A wealthy guru and ashram have a huge impact on the local economy of a cash-poor region.
This supplies a specific topic worthy of a news feature story.
The alleged presence and role of Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins at Moo facilies certainly deserve close attention.. from the Portuguese government and news media.
Which is why this discussion is bringing so many trolls to come visit.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/08/2019 11:15PM by corboy.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
NoWayNowhere
()
Date: September 09, 2019 12:58AM
Corboy, I meant good would be to get concrete evidence for the allegations we've already heard.
It would be really helpful if something concrete could be published.
You mention a few points where I don't see the relevance to the cult topic.
Take a spiritual name, the tradition exists in many traditions.
including Christianity where in the monastery religious names are adopted.
This is actually nothing cult specific.
That some former Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins participate there wouldn't surprise me either.
That was a huge movement at that time. But it is also no proof that in Portugal structures like in Oregon exist.
In Oregon they even had watchtowers with submachine guns.
Immigration, legal traffic jams, well we are here in Europe and most of the participants probably come from the EU. What is the relevance to the cult theme ?
The accusations that have not yet been proven must be proven, otherwise the situation will not change there.
It would be really helpful if something concrete could be published.
You mention a few points where I don't see the relevance to the cult topic.
Take a spiritual name, the tradition exists in many traditions.
including Christianity where in the monastery religious names are adopted.
This is actually nothing cult specific.
That some former Rajneesh/OSHO sanyassins participate there wouldn't surprise me either.
That was a huge movement at that time. But it is also no proof that in Portugal structures like in Oregon exist.
In Oregon they even had watchtowers with submachine guns.
Immigration, legal traffic jams, well we are here in Europe and most of the participants probably come from the EU. What is the relevance to the cult theme ?
The accusations that have not yet been proven must be proven, otherwise the situation will not change there.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 09, 2019 02:20AM
NoWayNowhere:
What changes do you think must be made?
In your opinion what is Mooji doing wrong?
If you don't answer these questions directly then we have another troll on this thread.
What changes do you think must be made?
In your opinion what is Mooji doing wrong?
If you don't answer these questions directly then we have another troll on this thread.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
Sahara71
()
Date: September 09, 2019 05:52AM
I have been looking into this cult for some time. I did find out a lot of fascinating stuff - much of which I can't write about here, out of respect for those people which were kind enough to put their trust in me and share their stories.
Allegedly:
Yes, the Mooji organisation are a destructive cult. They exploit people for fee labor under harsh conditions. They groom people in order to liberate them from their money, and in some cases they attempt to extort money from members.
Mooji exploits young women sexually. He misrepresents himself and his intentions and pretends to be enlightened so as to exert power over impressionable women. He has been promiscuous and unfaithful.
The Mooji group use coercive mind control (coercive persuasion) on members to make them compliant and devoted. This is a subtle process which works to varying degrees on different members. It involves people giving up their sense of themselves as a rational, independent, free-thinking individuals and becoming directionless and helpless.
The techniques used include psychological gas-lighting, over-work, restricting information, secrecy, emotional and psychological intimidation, competition for approval, repeated chanting, public shaming, a low-protein diet, enforced silence, disapproval of personal friendships and physical deprivation, including having to access to heating in the winter and the use of cold water only in showers.
People at Monte Sahaja live in a culture of fear. There has been one report of physical assault of a volunteer by a staff member.
Mooji deliberately distorts the teaching of Advaita Vedanta. He teaches only one part of this sacred doctrine, the so-called "self-inquiry" technique, which he uses to de-center a person's sense of self, making them vulnerable to thought-reform. There is a trance-induction component to most of his spoken teachings, which can alter people's cognitive function. Many people at Monte Sahaja report short-term memory loss.
Until very recently, Mooji falsely claimed that he was a direct spiritual descendant of Ramana Mahashi. Ramana left no spiritual linage, so these claims were categorically false and provably false.
Mooji's closest allies will do anything for him, including lie and cheat. They are taught that "it's Ok to lie for the truth". They are quite relentless and vindictive, going to so far as to use racist slurs towards one of Mooji's main detractors.
Mooji ordered the heron to be shot dead from the sky.
The Mooji group use lawyers to intimidate people into silence. Interestingly, the legal firm which they choose to employ have a record of keeping an supporting an employee who is (allegedly) up on charges of assaulting a female from his office! Does the expression "birds of a feather flock together" have any relevance here?
Be Scofield spoke to actual people who had actual experience at Monte Sahaja for her widely-read article. I spoke to several of the same people as she herself did. They were articulate, detailed and consistent in what they told me.
The Moo group harbor people with significant mental illness at Monte Sahaja and do not assist them to access medical and psychological support, in fact there is evidence to suggest that they exploit such people for free labor.
The Mooji organisation repeatedly publish disclaimers informing us that people with psychological issues will not receive any help from them and yet those people will be expected to attend 'satsung' and maintain silence on retreats.
There has been 3 reported suicides associated with this group.
In conclusion, Mooji runs an exploitative, socially-harmful cult. He does so deliberately and knowingly.
Allegedly:
Yes, the Mooji organisation are a destructive cult. They exploit people for fee labor under harsh conditions. They groom people in order to liberate them from their money, and in some cases they attempt to extort money from members.
Mooji exploits young women sexually. He misrepresents himself and his intentions and pretends to be enlightened so as to exert power over impressionable women. He has been promiscuous and unfaithful.
The Mooji group use coercive mind control (coercive persuasion) on members to make them compliant and devoted. This is a subtle process which works to varying degrees on different members. It involves people giving up their sense of themselves as a rational, independent, free-thinking individuals and becoming directionless and helpless.
The techniques used include psychological gas-lighting, over-work, restricting information, secrecy, emotional and psychological intimidation, competition for approval, repeated chanting, public shaming, a low-protein diet, enforced silence, disapproval of personal friendships and physical deprivation, including having to access to heating in the winter and the use of cold water only in showers.
People at Monte Sahaja live in a culture of fear. There has been one report of physical assault of a volunteer by a staff member.
Mooji deliberately distorts the teaching of Advaita Vedanta. He teaches only one part of this sacred doctrine, the so-called "self-inquiry" technique, which he uses to de-center a person's sense of self, making them vulnerable to thought-reform. There is a trance-induction component to most of his spoken teachings, which can alter people's cognitive function. Many people at Monte Sahaja report short-term memory loss.
Until very recently, Mooji falsely claimed that he was a direct spiritual descendant of Ramana Mahashi. Ramana left no spiritual linage, so these claims were categorically false and provably false.
Mooji's closest allies will do anything for him, including lie and cheat. They are taught that "it's Ok to lie for the truth". They are quite relentless and vindictive, going to so far as to use racist slurs towards one of Mooji's main detractors.
Mooji ordered the heron to be shot dead from the sky.
The Mooji group use lawyers to intimidate people into silence. Interestingly, the legal firm which they choose to employ have a record of keeping an supporting an employee who is (allegedly) up on charges of assaulting a female from his office! Does the expression "birds of a feather flock together" have any relevance here?
Be Scofield spoke to actual people who had actual experience at Monte Sahaja for her widely-read article. I spoke to several of the same people as she herself did. They were articulate, detailed and consistent in what they told me.
The Moo group harbor people with significant mental illness at Monte Sahaja and do not assist them to access medical and psychological support, in fact there is evidence to suggest that they exploit such people for free labor.
The Mooji organisation repeatedly publish disclaimers informing us that people with psychological issues will not receive any help from them and yet those people will be expected to attend 'satsung' and maintain silence on retreats.
There has been 3 reported suicides associated with this group.
In conclusion, Mooji runs an exploitative, socially-harmful cult. He does so deliberately and knowingly.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
NoWayNowhere
()
Date: September 09, 2019 06:00AM
rrmoderator Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoWayNowhere:
>
> What changes do you think must be made?
>
> In your opinion what is Mooji doing wrong?
>
> If you don't answer these questions directly then
> we have another troll on this thread.
About your questions
I have not been to the ashram in Portugal myself, so I don't know the exact conditions there, but definitely the whole orientation of the group should be more open and not just Mooji oriented, everything that comes out of it will lead to a personality cult and not to being free.
To the second question . Mooji has it completely in his hands what's going on there and what's not.
He allowed him to be worshipped as an all-father and didn't contradict that. That's his biggest mistake, I think, because this will lead to a personality cult if they don't stop it.
-------------------------------------------------------
> NoWayNowhere:
>
> What changes do you think must be made?
>
> In your opinion what is Mooji doing wrong?
>
> If you don't answer these questions directly then
> we have another troll on this thread.
About your questions
I have not been to the ashram in Portugal myself, so I don't know the exact conditions there, but definitely the whole orientation of the group should be more open and not just Mooji oriented, everything that comes out of it will lead to a personality cult and not to being free.
To the second question . Mooji has it completely in his hands what's going on there and what's not.
He allowed him to be worshipped as an all-father and didn't contradict that. That's his biggest mistake, I think, because this will lead to a personality cult if they don't stop it.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 09, 2019 06:20AM
NoWayNowhere
How is Mooji accountable? Who is he accountable to within the organizational structure? Anyone?
Is Mooji basically a dictator?
Is there any meaningful financial transparency concerning the finances of the organization?
Isn't the group already a destructive personality cult now?
How is Mooji accountable? Who is he accountable to within the organizational structure? Anyone?
Is Mooji basically a dictator?
Is there any meaningful financial transparency concerning the finances of the organization?
Isn't the group already a destructive personality cult now?
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: September 09, 2019 06:21AM
NoWayNoWhere writes:
People who say they have been at Monte Sahaja and done seva there have given
accounts. They've posted material on this thread.
You say you have not been 'to the ashram in Portugal myself'.
Before writing any more arguments take some time and read this entire thread through from August 2018 onwards. You will find many different voices here, including from persons who say they have been at Monte Sahaja.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2019 06:25AM by corboy.
Quote
I have not been to the ashram in Portugal myself, so I don't know the exact conditions there, but definitely the whole orientation of the group should be more open and not just Mooji oriented, everything that comes out of it will lead to a personality cult and not to being free.
People who say they have been at Monte Sahaja and done seva there have given
accounts. They've posted material on this thread.
You say you have not been 'to the ashram in Portugal myself'.
Before writing any more arguments take some time and read this entire thread through from August 2018 onwards. You will find many different voices here, including from persons who say they have been at Monte Sahaja.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/09/2019 06:25AM by corboy.
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
Bodhi68
()
Date: September 09, 2019 06:55AM
rrmoderator : This post is not violating any forum rules and i only report what i've seen with my own eyes.
Sahara 71 : I don't know if my post will still be seen here but anyway.I have been to Sahaja few times and some things you report i can't confirm.
"public shaming" I have never seen any of this
"a low-protein diet" There is so much good food there prepared that i always skipped meals.
"physical deprivation, including having to access to heating in the winter and the use of cold water only in showers."
I saw gas run heatings for the rooms for wintertime and all showers i used have cold and hot water also run with gas heaters.
This is just few points but my post might be deleted anyway so i keep it short.
Regards
Bodhi
Sahara 71 : I don't know if my post will still be seen here but anyway.I have been to Sahaja few times and some things you report i can't confirm.
"public shaming" I have never seen any of this
"a low-protein diet" There is so much good food there prepared that i always skipped meals.
"physical deprivation, including having to access to heating in the winter and the use of cold water only in showers."
I saw gas run heatings for the rooms for wintertime and all showers i used have cold and hot water also run with gas heaters.
This is just few points but my post might be deleted anyway so i keep it short.
Regards
Bodhi
Re: Mooji a cult?
Posted by:
Sahara71
()
Date: September 09, 2019 07:01AM
Bodhi,
the things you mention regarding heating, showers and diet are technicalities which could be explained by the person who reported this to me having stayed at MS a few years before you, when conditions were different. This does not mean that these things were reported inaccurately, merely that conditions have now changed.
As one MS resident stated "Things change very quickly around here."
the things you mention regarding heating, showers and diet are technicalities which could be explained by the person who reported this to me having stayed at MS a few years before you, when conditions were different. This does not mean that these things were reported inaccurately, merely that conditions have now changed.
As one MS resident stated "Things change very quickly around here."
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