Would the detail of quoting books that mention the strategy of watching out for details count as a detail that is itself creating a smokescreen?

All meaning is persuasion, Kenneth Burke (a flakey cultist?) tells us.

The fact that you find someone being persuasive to you or others is nothing but that. Everyone persuades and attempts to build a case for others to accept, whether it's 'I'm just a guy walking in a room' (a case we build by walking in a room in the 'normal' way) or 'vote for obama.'

If details are suspicious, then simplicity is too. You'll soon be quoting someone saying, 'watch out for the simple, plain talk--it's intended to make you think it's all on the surface, nothing hidden."

Yes of course. As usual, as it has been since the beginning, and always will be. So you'd better come to terms with persuasion. When you find it, it doesn't mean anything except that someone is using language to make a case, which is what you do every day, all day--when your mouth is moving or your hand is moving.

To whom it may concern:

There is a marked difference between types of persuasion, e.g. education, advertising, propaganda, indoctrination and thought reform, which is often called "brainwashing."

Brainwashing is what "cults" typically do, rather than other forms of persuasion.

Clinical psychologist Margaret Singer, author and professor at U.C. Berkeley made a chart demonstrating these gradations.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the distinctions.

I wonder...does the word "ralpher" have any connection to the Byron Katie vomiting?
I'm just saying...to "ralph" is slang for vomiting.
[www.urbandictionary.com]
It has been mentioned that the Byron Katie groupies "get off" on vomiting, and get Brownie Points for vomiting more, like a severe eating disorder which needs to be treated by a doctor.
Does "ralpher" stand for a proud Byron Katie The Work Vomiter?

By the way, vomiting is a very bad thing, and should be very rare. It burns up your throat, stomach, and wrecks your teeth enamel. Its a potentially serious health disorder. See a doctor.
Anyone telling you that vomiting is "good" like at the Byron Katie Work seminars...should be investigated by the health authorities.
Is is even legal to tell people vomiting is good? That should not be allowed.

[www.google.com]

PERSUASION:
And there is a massive difference between various forms of persuasion, to me the most important is the conscious use of DECEPTION. Big difference.

Also, the Byron Katie gang preach outright falsehoods, like "there is no reality". That's FALSE.
There is an objective reality.
For example, if tea or juice being supplied to a large group of people is tampered with, they can all start to "ralph" or vomit. That's Objective Reality.

So these guys play Mind-Tricks that would be laughed out of a Philosophy 101 course on the first day. But sadly, the public is not as trained as it needs to be in these areas. We need some serious education in this stuff.

ALL meaning is NOT persuasion. That is meaningless.
There is such a thing as objective reality, and this is what science works to discover. (this then gets into complex intellectual areas, and this is where they can dupe people).

People should STAY AWAY from all of these unlicensed crackpots, who are doing a type of group psychotherapy without a license. It should be illegal for these untrained abusers to go and mess around with things like TRAUMA, that can lead to suicide.
It would be great one day to put strict limits on these people and to block this type of pseudo-psychotherapy without a license.
Just like you can't practice medicine without a license. that is ILLEGAL, and it used to be legal.
The same needs to happen here. There has to be some laws put into place to protect people.

The Byon Katie opening line..."Is It True?" is nothing more than a mind-trick to begin to lure you into her world, and serve HER needs, and make HER easy money. Is It True, is like a can-opener for your mind, which allows her into your mind to start messing around with it.
Is It True? is a question as old as philosophy, which then needs to lead to using the Scientific Method of learning about reality.

Byron Katie and her hangers-on are simply a money-making racket, using dozens of COVERT LGAT Thought Reform techniques to get at you, then your money, then???

also I am truly blown-away by the intelligence, flexibilty of thought and insight from the people in this forum, who are analyzing Byron Katie, and the other LGAT seminar manipulators. Truly amazing. Many hundreds of people, and over time even thousands, will be helped by exposing what is really going on inside the Byron Katie seminars.
End the secrecy and conscious deceptions.

Maybe even one or two of the Byron Katie Senior Trainers will lie awake at night, sweating over all the damage, lies, distortion, and blatant hypocrisy. Maybe she will have crisis of conscience, and think it over, and then come out and tell everyone what is really going on, and help a lot of people.
Its usually just the main Guru and her senior people who don't have a conscience for anyone other than themselves and hubby.
Thankfully, most people do have a working conscience, and basic human decency.

I wanted to ignore ralpher, but I seem to have gotten stuck on trying to make any sense at all of his erratic post.

I think he's saying that I was giving "Too Many Details" by quoting George K. Simon's book. I notice that he put this little accusation out there in question form. I've seen a lot of people engrossed in The Work doing this. Since everything they say is supposed to be a projection about them, they are generally very careful about how they accuse you of things, to avoid having to turn it around.

I'm going to acknowledge some of ralpher's post, partially out of pity, and partially to help myself get through the mind-screw he just tried to give me.

In answer to your inquiry/accusation: No, ralpher. It is not considered "Too Many Details" to quote books that are expressly about the topic of discussion, and that support the ideas being presented. If that were true, then Rick Ross's entire website would be one giant conglomerate of Too Many Details.

The point of a Too Many Detailed smokescreen is to cover someone's hidden aggressive agenda. I've made my agenda here pretty clear, and in case I didn't: I am here to share about my experience with Byron Katie, to free myself of the Thought Reform, to learn more about it, and if possible, to help anyone else who is seeking freedom from BK. I think you will find that every post I've posted is openly in support of this agenda.

It's obvious to me that ralpher is insinuating that I'm projecting, and once again has failed to look at himself and all the "Too Many Details" that his posts contain. Considering all his claims to not be a BK apologist, the evidence to the contrary is overwhelming. I might feel more inclined to take him seriously if he could just be honest about his agenda. But since he chooses lying, diversion, projecting the blame, villifying the victim, and feigning innocence instead, I see no reason to seriously consider his point-of-view.

Although, it does provide some interesting material to help illustrate what The Work can do to a person's mind.

After (not so) subtly accusing me of using manipulation when I quoted a relevant source, ralpher went on to quote a source, which seems totally irrelevant to manipulation, cults, or cult leaders. I have no idea who Kenneth Burke is, and I see absolutely no relevance in this quote. Since ralpher did not go on to explain this, I can only assume it was just another not-so-clever diversion.

"The fact that you find someone being persuasive to you or others is nothing but that." says ralpher.

The fact that I find him trying to persuade me to see things his way and defending Byron Katie, yet again, is nothing but that... it really is just a fact, y'all. Every now and then ralpher makes a good point, albeit, not the point he was trying to make. The fact that I find him here doing the same thing over and over... and never getting a different result... is a little insane.

The rest of the paragraph is disturbing to me, since it makes absolutely no sense. I cannot figure out why in the world he is now talking about Obama. And, who said that details are suspicious? No, irrelevant details are suspicious... which makes ralpher's post highly suspicious, in my book.

As far as ralpher's prediction about what I'll soon be quoting and saying... does anyone think this is really weird, besides me? I think he's mocking me in some really far-out, incomprehensible way.

What does he mean by "Yes, of course"? Who is he in agreement with? Does he really think he's made a point, or is this supposed to convince me? It's not funny... but dang! This sort of crap actually used to make some sense to me while I was immersed in The School. Now, it sounds like some kind of paranoid jibberish.

I think ralpher needs to take his own advice again, and come to terms with persuasion-- the persuasion that has obviously wreaked havoc on his ability to think and communicate intelligibly.

I am very sorry if what I say seems cruel. I think it's possible I'm talking about a person who has some severe psychological trauma from The Work, and I don't intend to make a mockery of him. I'm actually feeling very sorry for him right about now. I can imagine how painful the idea of losing this false sense of reality must be for him. I think he must be very frightened by our posts. But, how in the world do you respond to this insanity? Does anyone have any suggestions for books and/or resources for dealing with people like this?

I assume we will continue to hear from ralpher every time something in these posts threatens his BK fantasy world.

Anticult, corboy, skeptic, helpme2times... any suggestions or feedback?


-jj



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 06:33AM by jj52.

just to set the record straight, The Guruphiliac Jody "rejects" any comments to his blog he does not want to hear.
He rationalizes this by saying they are "histrionics", which again, is more conscious distortion.
There have been comments rejected which are critical of his comments, but are in no way histrionic.

Why not just cut out the part he considers "histrionic"?
Its not about histrionics, his entire blog is full of histrionics!

Its not a blind-spot to LGAT's either. It most likely is a hidden vested interest of the pecuniary kind,like doing some work for one of the parties involved, perhaps.

The Guruphiliac blog has no credibilty on this issue.

_____________________________
jody said...
There's a reason for that. It's called the "reject" button.

Oprah has been wrong before, if you remember the time she had mucho "egg on her face" after promoting that young guy who wrote a book that was a complete lie.

I suspect that some of Oprah's employees have not done their research.

tegards,
Shad

Quote
The Anticult
I wonder...does the word "ralpher" have any connection to the Byron Katie vomiting?

That's hilarious!

Thanks for this post! I felt my brain getting a little mushy after reading ralpher's Katie-speak. This helped me get things back into perspective.

At the School for The Work, most everyone talks like ralpher by day 9. There is a whole exercise on "literal listening", which is exactly what it sounds like. We paired off into groups and practiced listening to what people were saying literally... everything. It was supposed to train us to filter out all sarcasm, hidden meanings, implications, insinuations, etc. Now that I think about this... that's really messed up!

Here, just take everything BK says literally, and don't pay any attention to the subtle innuendos and implications. Let all that stuff go into your subconscious, but filter it out of your conscious mind. Is this a recipe for brainwashing?

I remember asking a staff member "Is there a chance that I could get my cell phone back tonight?" She smiled and replied, "Well, I don't know if there is a chance of that." And walked away. I was left feeling like a moron for not asking the question in a more direct way. But, in the real world, most people would know exactly what I meant, right?

Not in Byron Katie world!

What would I get if I took everything ralpher said literally, and shut out everything else I see/hear going on there? I'd probably snap back into BK land. His way of expressing himself is so familiar and BK-ish... it's almost hynoptic for me at times.

Is that what is meant by "loading the language"?


-jj



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 07:16AM by jj52.

What The Ralpher is "bringing up" is that everything is a form of persuasion.

Rick Ross comment above covers the entire area in a few words!



but basically The Ralpher is tacitly admitting that Byron Katie and her people are professional persuaders, but that we all persuade, so its ok.
Its like saying, the banana is persuading me to eat it, that is what Byron Katie is doing.
Byron Katie is the same as a banana. The universe is a banana....buy my books. Thank you.
Its just more distortion and mind-screwing.

Ralpher knows what he-she is doing.
They picked up that bogus faux-argument from Byron Katie.
They tell themselves....

yes, we Persuade others, but all life is persuasion, and its for their own good anyway...so give me your money and get out of my face until the next time we can Ralph-as-one.
Ralphing as brainwashing...that is a new one.

I bet they also are associated with Rolphing...(checking google)
YES THEY IS! ... it would be a good name for a BK Rolfer...poetic.

Ralph = vomiting
Rolfing = new age nonsense bodywork moneymaking scam.(very painful massage)
Rolpher = one who does Rolfing to others
Ralpher = seems to be a slang for Rolpher

[www.google.com]

ROLFING
[skepdic.com]

by the way, Ralpher, and other BK folks, let me challenge you, just person to person.
You have stated your belief that life is about keeping your money and taking others money. So you know the score.

Why not cut all the mind-games?
Why not just come out, and say what is going on?
Just admit if you work for Byron Katie, how much you get paid, if at all.
How the persuasion process works.
Your doubts about the process?

Why not just drop the fog-of-mindgames, and for once just tell it like it is?
Its still in you.

For the curious, just be aware that its quite clear that Byron Katie, and many others, do Thought-Reform on people, this is why the most basic "common sense" might not appear to work for you.
But you still have some BS detectors in there somewhere.
You don't go out and eat nails for lunch, you eat food, even if offered nails to eat. That is a BS detector.

So why not just REALLY tell the truth and be HONEST?
It feels good, try it.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 07:44AM by The Anticult.