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And there's another point I'lld like to make. Byron Katie, questionable as her approach of people in her 'School' might be, still can do whatever she wants to do. Meaning, she has never been charged, officially, with anything. That is, not to my knowledge. So, how damaging is she really?

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want to share something, that Byron Katie repeated many times at the School.

-She tells something great about The Work, and in the next sentence she says "-and its not for everyone (refering to The Work)"!

Every time I picked up on that, and felt it was directed to me. I felt that all the other students "got it" and I didnt. And ofcourse I desperately wanted to "get it". I guess that I not was the only one feeling that way..

P.S I have emailed RickRoss with "release of liability" attached in a Word document. I was not able to attach it here. So now it is up to a moderator to post it (if it is possible to do it that way?)

or maybe I could try copy and paste...



THE SCHOOL FOR THE WORK WITH BYRON KATIE


RELEASE OF LIABILITY

I desire to participate in The School for The Work with Byron Katie (”The School”) for the session to be held xx date, 2005 through and including xx date, 2005, at theCrown Plaza Hotel in Los Angeles, California (“The Facilities”). My participation is voluntary. I acknowledge that I am not obligated to participate in any activity, exercise, event or outing. I acknowledge that my participation in the outings is not required to receive a diploma. If I do not wish to participate, I will advise The School. I acknowledge that the outings of The School may include transportation and that I may be a passenger in the vehicle of another or I may use my vehicle for transporting myself, other participants, and staff of The School.

The School is an educational program. It is not therapeutic in design, intent or methodology and is not a substitute for medical treatment, psychotherapy, or any health program, regardless of what you may have heard from anyone. We specifically advise you that Byron Katie is not a healthcare professional and does not supply healthcare professionals on the staff of the School.

As a material of inducement of my participation at The School, I hereby fully and completely waive and release Byron Katie International, Inc. (“BKI Inc.”) and the Facilities, and each of them, and their respective representatives, directors, officers, and employees from any and all actions, claims, demands, damages and liability for personal injuries or damages to property, which has resulted or may hereinafter result, arising, directly or indirectly, from my participation at The School or my presence at the Facilities including any emotional consequences. I hereby also agree that I and any all other legal representatives of mine, including my assignees and heirs, will not make a claim against or sue BKI Inc., the Facilities, or their respective representatives, directors, officers, and employees for any injury or damage resulting or arising, directly or indirectly, from my participation at The School.

I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death and verify this statement by placing my initials below:

________
(Initials)

MEDICAL AUTHORIZATION

I acknowledge that BKI Inc. and The School do not and will not maintain medical insurance coverage should I sustain any illness or injury during my participation at The School. I represent that either I will maintain my own medical insurance policy or that I will bear all costs and expenses associated with any illness or injury which I may sustain during my participation at The School and I release BKI Inc. from any liability therefore.

I understand that if I am on medication, The School requires that I continue to take my medication during The School in accordance with my doctor’s orders. In the event of an emergency, I hereby give consent to medical treatment including contacting emergency medical personnel and facilities.

I, the undersigned registrant for The School, understand that I am engaging in a course, which may involve physical, emotional and psychological activity and that in cases of such activity there is always a risk involved. I understand that in a group workshop setting, the instructor(s) are not responsible for monitoring physical, emotional and psychological limits, or the limits of other participants, and that I am therefore responsible for assessing the risk any individual or group activity poses to me, and choosing a safe course of action for myself. I agree to completely assume the risk and responsibility for any injuries or damages suffered by me arising out of my participation in The School.


_________
(Initials)









page 2.
INTELLECTUAL PROBERTY RIGHTS

I understand that the materials for The School contain copyrighted works, trademarks, and other intellectual property. All rights are reserved. The materials for The School, or any portion thereof, may not be reproduced or transmitted in any form or by any means, without the prior written consent of Byron Katie or Byron Katie Inc. Notwithstanding the above, I understand that I may make copies of these materials for my personal use only, provided that I must include the statement “Copyright 2005 Byron Katie Inc.” on each portion copied.


RELEASE OF RIGHTS FOR AUDIO AND
VIDEO RECORDING AND PHOTOGRAPHY

I acknowledge that BKI Inc. and The School may make photographs and/or audio and video recordings of the sessions of The School in which I may participate. I hereby irrevocably consent to the reproduction of my likeness and/or voice in any such photographs and/or video recordings. I grant in perpetuity an release to BKI Inc. and Byron Katie Inc. the exclusive and royalty-free rights to record, produce, distribute, sell, license to others, and to otherwise use or exploit any of such photographs and audio or video recordings, including my likeness and voice, taken of me or in which I may be included, for all purposes, including in connection with conversations, interviews, performances, speeches, and/or presentations at The School. If I do not wish to be recorded or photographed, it shall be my responsibility to advise the audio/video crew or the photographer, respectively, and they will make reasonable efforts to exclude me from any photographs and/or audio and video recordings.


REFUNDS


I understand that no refunds will be granted. If you leave during the first day of School, your money less the cost of room and board will be applied to another School to be taken within one year. If you leave the school anytime after the first full day, no refund will be granted.

I have read, understood, and agree to this Agreement.


Signature:___________________________________________________________

Printed name:____________________________________ Date:_______________






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Diploma Please PRINT clearly and legibly your name exactly as you would like it to appear on your diploma.

Printed name:_________________________________________________________


____________________________________________________________________________________________




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page 3.
EMERGENCY MEDICAL INFORMATION
Day month xx through day, month xx, 2005 at the Crown Plaza Hotel, Los Angeles

PARTICIPANTS NAME:____________________________________________________________________
First Last

I would like The school to be aware of the following medical an mental health conditions I have:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------








List of medications:



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------






Physician’s Name:_____________________________________________________
Phone Number

Psychiatrist’s/ Therapist’s Name:________________________________
Phone Number

Signature:_______________________________

Printed Name:____________________________ Date:_______



Emergency Contact (this section must be filled out):

Name:________________________________ Relationship___________

Tel.#:______________________________________________________



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/14/2009 02:10PM by Garden of Even

Quote

want to share something, that Byron Katie repeated many times at the School.

-She tells something great about The Work, and in the next sentence she says "-and its not for everyone (refering to The Work)"!

Every time I picked up on that, and felt it was directed to me. I felt that all the other students "got it" and I didnt. And ofcourse I desperately wanted to "get it". I guess that I not was the only one feeling that way.. [/unquote]



Yes, you're right at this point. Byron Katie's schools are not the place to be. I've read some participant reports, maybe not all of them, but what I've read was enough to write in my post that I don't approve of her 'turn-around' business. But maybe I haven't been explicit enough on this point. This whole 'turn-around' stuff is tricky business and for vulnerable people it can be flat out dangerous, certainly when they suffer from troublesome mental conditions. That's why I have stated in the last part of my posting that, in my opinion, people should stay away from new age guru's like her and they should not attend their expensive seminars. For most people it's just not good, as this story of 'Garden of Even' very clearly proves.

So on this point we seem to agree. If you think not, just tell me.
Now we get to my question: 'So, how damaging is she really?' I asked this because I have, to this point, not heard or read about any lawsuit against her. I wondered how this could be, when, on the other hand, there are those alarming participant reports. Why hadn't anybody started a case against her? This was kind of strange to me. What could be the case here? What was the truth about Byron Katie?

And now I've read this. This 'release of liability. (thank you for re-posting) And that illuminates the case very differently. I mean, really... This is an unbelievable, two-faced kind of a contract I cannot imagine I would ever sign. Just look at this:

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...

As a material of inducement of my participation at The School, I hereby fully and completely waive and release Byron Katie International, Inc. (“BKI Inc.”) and the Facilities, and each of them, and their respective representatives, directors, officers, and employees from any and all actions, claims, demands, damages and liability for personal injuries or damages to property, which has resulted or may hereinafter result, arising, directly or indirectly, from my participation at The School or my presence at the Facilities including any emotional consequences. I hereby also agree that I and any all other legal representatives of mine, including my assignees and heirs, will not make a claim against or sue BKI Inc., the Facilities, or their respective representatives, directors, officers, and employees for any injury or damage resulting or arising, directly or indirectly, from my participation at The School.

I acknowledge that I am voluntarily assuming all risks associated with my participation at The School and voluntarily agree to accept any and all risks of injury or death and verify this statement by placing my initials below:... [/unquote]

In my opinion this should be enough to make none of the participants to be ever really give their initials. I think I would pack my suitcase and run. This is not normal. This is criminal.
But sad fact is, that people appearantly do sign these contracts before attending Byron Katie's schools... It's almost inconceivable...

Now that I've read this, I've been reading some more about this develish kind of paper and why people are signing it and that makes me feel as powerless as in the days I saw one of my closest friends join the community of (tnow the late) Adi Da, formerly known as Da Free John. I had read the same books from this guru as he had, I had watched the same video's, I had even been to the same introduction event in the Netherlands to see what it was all about. Well I went home knowing for myself that this guru, like so many others, was bad news, but my friend signed up for everything. I could talk with him for days and nights trying to prevent it, he stayed with his concusion that he was going to become a devotee. It must have been that he, just like so many people in the case of Byron Katie, must have believed in such a way that this guru was the answer to his problems, that he became blinded to his own better judgement.

Based on this criminal contract I dare to say here that Byron Katie should be charged, arrested and judged. And why seems this not to be happening? Only because people have signed this bloody paper? Again, this is unconceivable. I mean, a crime is a crime. Does this signing give Byron Katie enough protection to stay free from charges? Is that how American law works? I really don't understand...

Can you give me any explanation in this direction? I would be very grateful, since I have no knowledge of the American law.

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Then this point of own responsibility. A complicated subject. But this is not a thread about responsibility, so I cannot say too much about this. I have to keep it to own responsibility and the practices of Byron Katie.

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Finally, about Cry in the Desert. I´ve read it. I owe it. I bought it ten years ago and have been reading it again recently, because I wanted to find out how I thought about it now. Well, worse then when I read it the first time. Personally I think it´s an annoyingly sweet/talk New Age product full of Katie admiring. But it had and still has some interesting parts for me. Anyway, about that cockroach story that you think is not a part of this book. Actually, it is. Part one, at the beginning of chapter 4.

I have been downloading her book Losing the Moon, so I will read that shortly. I´m curious what she had to say about Hitler.

Well, I hope I’ve given you some answers now about me and my motives. I just want to find out the truth about Byron Katie for as far as I’m able to find that out.

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What evidence would it take to prove your beliefs wrong?

I simply will not reply to challenges that do not address this question.

Refutability is one of the classic determinants of whether a theory can be called scientific.

Moreover, I have found it to be a great general-purpose cut-through-the-crap question to determine whether somebody is interested in serious intellectual inquiry or just playing mind games. Note, by the way, that I am assuming the burden of proof here - all you have to do is commit to a criterion for testing.

It's easy to criticize science for being "closed-minded".

Are you open-minded enough to consider whether your ideas might be wrong?

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let’s say you have some rather exciting ideas about why you seem to lose socks at an astonishing rate. Maybe, you hypothesise, aliens are beaming down to steal one sock out of every pair you own.


Hypothesis: the loss of my socks is due to alien burglary.

In order to test whether your hypothesis is true or not, you have to carry out some research to see if you can back it up. So you set up a hi-tech alien detection system and record whether times of alien activity are correlated with when your socks go missing.


See Full Diagram
However, when you get your results, it’s possible that any relationship that appears in your data was produced by random chance.

Null Hypothesis: the loss of my socks is nothing to do with alien burglary.
Alternate Hypothesis: the loss of my socks is due to alien burglary.

The next step is to compare these two alternatives using the magic of… (cue dramatic music)… statistics.

In statistics, the only way of supporting your hypothesis is to refute the null hypothesis.

Rather than trying to prove your idea (the alternate hypothesis) right you must show that the null hypothesis is likely to be wrong – you have to ‘refute’ or ‘nullify’ the null hypothesis.

Unfortunately you have to assume that your alternate hypothesis is wrong until you find evidence to the contrary. so its until proven guilty for the aliens.

*Corboy note: this is why Professor Dutch's question is so very important--are you capable of facing the possiblity that something you want to believe could be proved wrong?

Without that willingness, you're not in the right mindset to set out and test a null hypotheis.

So, if someone wants to believe their favorite high priced guru helps people, that person had better be able to admit that its possible to prove that

1) Null Hypothesis: Your beloved high priced guru has no effect at all and that those persons reporting relief are doing so because its random chance- or placebo effect.

If we evaluate Byron Katie's claims using Null Hypothesis, we do not start by assuming that people report feeling better because Byron Katies method's have healed them.

We start by assuming that whats making people feel better is random change in their moods or placebo effect.

We also test to see if other, existing methods are as good or better than than anything Byron Katie is producing and whether these carry less risk and are cheaper than what she charges.

So, the burden of proof is on Byron Katie and her supporters, not on this message board.


Troll count from last year on just this thread

[forum.culteducation.com]

Daphne, Anticultist, ralpher, Randomstu, prsp (or something like that)
Ex Scientology Kid, cultcity and Idunno.

In additon there are:

golfer6716
eduardo
Jon Willis
al3r
Gee
screddy57
Remi
douglas_goodall

To this glorious list we can, just from this past week, add skeptical republican, Kassy and Anatta

I have zero respect for any guru or 'healer' whose devotees generate such a high pattern of troll activity.

And, a wee message to the trolls:

Does your spouse, boyfriend/girlfriend or your parents know what you are doing with your with your computer?

If you are doing this from work or from a student account, does your employer or your university know you're doing all this with their system?

If any of them walked in and saw this, would you feel able to show them?

Or would you hit the 'minimize' button on your screen so you could hide it?

Following this The Anticult posted;

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, all of the main posters and readers here believe in freedom of speech, of course. That is what it is all about, REAL freedom of mind.
And it appears everyone would also agree that the public has the right to have all the facts on the table, from all sides of the issues, so as an adult they can carefully make up their own minds, and make good decisions.

but at the same time, if a few trolls have figured out a way to game the system, to just keep slipping through random junk as a type of smokescreen, that is different.
And these threads can be very helpful to people coming out of the cultic enmeshments, so there has to be the ability to keep things on track.
The title above says Cult Education Forum, not Disinformation & Confusion Induction Forum.

Its very very interesting how the Byron Katie system, attracts so many of these internet Trolls?

For example, there is an SGI thread [forum.culteducation.com] where there really hasn't been any serious trolling to speak of.

But the Byron Katie system is very different, of course.
Very aggressive, very passive-aggressive, very hostile, and the #1 trait is DECEPTION. Such incredible levels of deception attempted, almost universally. There was ONE BK person in the thread, who had donated 10 grand or something to BK, and that person seemed honest and straight-up. Basically all the rest have been so incredibly dishonest.
So that is a good object lesson.

That is something else to be examined...what is it in the Byron Katie Work, that carries such intense passive aggressive hostility, deception, and nastiness?
It seems to come from the top, the leaders will kick someone in the teeth, figuratively, and then surround it with fake love-bombing...like fire people, and then say..."hugs and kisses".

There are some back-channel unpublished emails from The Big Cheeses, and they have these hostile humilations and kicks in them, often in a form of double-entrendre, double-meaning.

It will be interesting to try and figure out where that hostility comes from...is there a type of Fair Game mentality, where anything goes?

Is it because the deep BK-ers, really believe there is no such thing as "reality", so there is no such thing as lying? So they can say anything?

Is it because The Work is based on screwing with people's sense of reality?
Something to look into.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/24/2010 01:22AM by corboy.