Re: Byron Katie (the Work), Morten Tolboll, Criticism
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: February 22, 2010 05:02AM

'Are there any studies that describe factors that contribute to such a condition, or is this just human suggestability?'

From my experience this is the human condition. We are suggestible creatures--which is a good thing as it allows us to learn and adapt to changing circumstances. From an evolutionary point of view, our suggestibility is what has allowed us to survive and prosper.

However, like every other human characteristic, it can be used for good or for ill. Along with the suggestibility we also have a critical faculty, the ability to examine ideas, recognise possible consequences and extrapolate to the possible future complications that might arise from acting on those ideas.
We have choices and to make the best use of our choices we need to employ the critical faculty to shine a light on what others might suggest to us as an unalloyed 'good thing'

There is no certainty in any of this, there is no study that tells you how to live and how to avoid the pitfalls of being human. I personally think we go on learning throughout life and that is a good thing.
I do think it important to accept that we are going to make mistakes, that no-one has a handle on the entirety of this, that what works for me may not suit anyone else.

One of my favourite quotations is from Voltaire: "Doubt is not a pleasant mental state, but certainty is a ridiculous one"

Something that I found very helpful in the 70's when I was struggling, belatedly and with no trusted guidance, with the need to grow up and become an independent adult, was a list from Sheldon Kopp's book 'If You Meet Buddha on the Road, Kill Him!'. It may not be to everyones taste but it was a good starting point for me:

Laundry List

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: February 23, 2010 12:08AM



But beyond that, humans are born suggestible and naive, as children are, which is why everyone wants to get at the children, and why Byron Katie wants to regress you to be a BK Schoolmate in the Byron Katie School.

For 'suggestible' we could substitute 'impressionable' and even 'highly educable.

Some years ago, I took a class on business correspondance and grammar, and because the course was taught at our community college, many of the students were from Asia and the former Soviet Union.

Our instructor said, that when we are tiny children, especially aged zero to six, our minds are incorporating information at a staggering rate--which is how tiny kids pick
up language, including accent, pacing, intonation, context in which words are used at a blindingly fast rate.

Carl Franz, who wrote a travel guide to Mexico, told of a friend who moved to Mexico with their family. Their little boy felt frustrated having to shift from English to Spanish.

One day, in culture shock, fed up with the struggle to learn a new language the little kid yelled, 'I dont want to say tortilla!'

The child's parent said, 'He pronounced 'tortilla' like a native.'

That is how impressionable little kids are.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: March 22, 2010 07:32AM


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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 23, 2010 06:10AM

Penetration into the Buddhist Mainstream


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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 23, 2010 06:27AM

Shout Out

Another person has created a personal rating site for self help gurus. Here are the criteria.

This is a tiny excerpt from a great essay.


"Many people will be helped by writers I have rated poorly, and many will be unhelped by my favorite gurus. In fact, one of the earliest books to change my life for the better was Wild at Heart by John Eldredge, whom I have rated poorly!

"But I think my ratings can help you. I will steer you to self-help gurus who:

◦explain methods that reliably help many people, according to scientific research.
◦are honest about themselves, the basis for their methods, and the comlexity of life.
◦give useful, how-to advice instead of wordy, abstract musings.
◦are easily readable.
◦are consistent, not self-contraditory

My problem with motivational material

"We all use motivational material. We need motivation to do what we need to do. But most motivational books are bullshit.

"They make big promises. They give you false hopes. They set you up for failure. They pull you forward without first pointing you in the right direction.

"And the good ones don’t give you false hopes. Or inactionable hopes. Just real hope."

Read the sections on the need for science and (yay!) 'Beware of Confirmation Bias'

“It worked for me! I don’t need a double-blind study!”

Sigh. Yes, yes you do. Maybe you’ll understand somebody else’s explanation better. Read How to Think Critically or Why Bogus Therapies Seem to Work.

Why do bad books get good reviews?
For the same reasons that crappy movies get good reviews. The self-help industry is a big business. Some reviewers have financial ties to the publisher. Reviewers who praise everything get sent lots of free books. Publishers market a book by getting the author on TV and courting Oprah.

Also, your friend might recommend a bad book because it made her feel good. Months later, she may be no better off. Often, she will recommend a book before she even tries what it says.

How many people who recommended Rich Dad, Poor Dad to their friends actually tried its illegal, unwise investing advice?

Why my reviews are so short
My book reviews are short for the same reasons that Piero Scaruffi’s music reviews are short:

◦Nearly all books are over-hyped and over-discussed.
◦With thousands of books and millions of internet pages describing them, readers don’t need more information but better selection.
◦As marketing and publishing costs have decreased, more crap is available.
◦Most books make no contribution to history or your life, and don’t demand surgical analysis.
◦One good self-help book is worth more than 50 mediocre books

(end of quote)

Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2010 06:38AM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 23, 2010 10:36AM

URL for the event at SRMC



Loving What Is: A Day with Byron Katie

Byron Katie
Sat, Sep 11, 10:00 am - 5:00 pm
Community Meditation Hall
Cost $150-$90 sliding scale. Code BK1B10.
Online Registration Open - Click here to register

Byron Katie is offering this workshop as a benefit for the Spirit Rock Scholarship Fund.

I need to be different. I should lose weight. My children shouldn’t talk back. My partner should listen to me. Thoughts like these may run through your mind hundreds of times a day, fostering fear, anger, stress and depression. The Work of Byron Katie is a way to deeply investigate these thoughts. Its four simple questions can radically transform your life.

The Work has been called the most powerful self-realization practice ever developed. Eckhart Tolle, author of The Power of Now, says, "The Work is like a razor-sharp sword that cuts through illusion and enables you to know for yourself the timeless essence of your being."

In this workshop, Katie, with her humor and lovingly incisive clarity, will introduce you to The Work. Anyone with an open mind can do it. She will show you how to identify and question the stressful thoughts that cause all the suffering in the world, and how self-inquiry can deepen your practice and bring you a happy life.

Note: We expect a full house for this event, so please register early to ensure your space. Carrpooling is strongly recommended and there is a $10 fee for cars with less than two passengers.

"Byron Katie may never have trained in Buddhism, but what she teaches is pure dharma. Her Work is Manjusri's delusion-cutting sword, and she uses it fearlessly, relentlessly and with utmost generosity. I have rarely seen anyone, including teachers from different spiritual traditions, realize the essential nature of not-knowing as powerfully as Katie in her passionate embrace of each and every moment." - Roshi Bernie Glassman

"Katie's Work is a wonderful, transformative practice for anyone interested in spiritual growth." - Lama Surya Das

"The Work of Byron Katie is a completely accessible user-friendly form of the ancient way of spiritual inquiry, a simple method that anyone can use to untangle difficulties in work, love, and family, and at the same time it opens the deepest spiritual directions." - John Tarrant Roshi

Parking: Carpooling required. $10 fee if less than 2 in car Please use our Online Bulletin Board for Ride Sharing.

E-mail This Event Link to a Friend

and...if you click on the underlined, live link to Byron Katie in the above quoted


it takes you to what I personally think of as the Story of the Santa Cucaracha


Byron Katie

Byron Katie woke up one morning in 1986 at the bottom of a ten-year fall into depression, anger and addiction, and realized that all suffering comes from believing our thoughts. She saw that no one is separate from anyone or anything. Many people have moments of clarity, but Katie went further. Questioning every painful thought she had, she developed an amazing way to pass on her experience, a method of inquiry she called The Work.

Those interested need to read the earlier BK books--less polished, published before she became famous.

A Cry in the Desert--a much more Christian flavor


Losing the Moon


And some comments from Dhammaleaves


Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 03/23/2010 11:01AM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 23, 2010 11:33PM

Note, this is from the comments given on the dhammaleaves site.

Earlier in the comments someone said that over here on there were a lot of
(comment 12)

June 30, 2008 at 10:23 am
Hi student,
I read that Rick Ross thread and, like I wrote to Zentient, they got some paranoid, over-reactive people over there. I want nothing to do with the ad hominem attacks against Katie. I think she’s a fine person, despite disagreeing with her stark view of reality.


Anon Email says:
August 29, 2009 at 2:56 am
Katie encourages us to question our thoughts. So why not question our thoughts about HER? About spiritual teachers and spirituality?

Are you a spiritual junkie? Do you jump from one spiritual teacher to another? When will that end? Will you be doing the same thing all your life? Who are these people that you admire (worship)? Are they really helping?

Have you ever noticed that when you encounter a new teacher, it’s a revelation? Then the zap gradually wanes. It’s like a caffeine hit or something. I think that eventually you find that there are no new teachers, no new revelations they can give you. The revelations become internal – you have to go out on your own.

These are things I’m asking myself. I’ve certainly displayed these behaviours. I feel a time is coming for me to “kill the Buddha”. What does that mean? That everything they say is meaningless – is more to attach to.

Don’t attach too much to these comments!

March 12, 2010 at 2:21 pm
Anon Email- You have really really hit the enitre essence of this topic. Why are you seeking whatever? I have noticed for years now, especially since we have had programs such as Oprah, we have been bombarded with many many “Spiritual Teachers”, and their many many ways to become Enlightened. Why? It’s almost like we are ever seeking, seeking, becoming, becoming?
Why? They are all essentially saying the same thing, they use their methods and twist it into a package that looks “different”, and then the next thing you know, “they are the bomb”!
Don’t you people get it? It’s a BUSINESS! And as long as you “think” you need some ENLIGHTENMENT, or you need to change something about yourself, because you are angry, sad, hurt, frustrated, crippled, you will be attracted always to these Spiritual Guru’s.
And as ANon so eloquently stated, there is nothing new, Jesus, said it thousands upon thousands of years ago, and the mass rip off of Guru’s have embraced it and twisted it to establish their BUSINESS.

Think about this- If say tomorrow, we had no more money system and there would no longer be a need to use money to buy anything, how Guru’s that have set up shop as “New Age Enlightenment” still be in business??? How many?? There is nothing NEW, and like Anon stated the revelations become internal and you have to go out on your own..

You really don’t need anyone to enlighten you, you are you own Guru.


Corboy note: we may have come across as 'paranoid and over-reactive' because friends, we were trying to follow Anon Emails advice to question Byron Katies own story.

And as a result of doing exactly that, this thread was overrun by whopping number of trolls and disrupters, some of whom started out seemingly benign and then showed their true colors. Years before I'd seen lots of trolling on the old threads related to discussing Landmark Education but the level of troll disruption on the BK thread was far more intense.

So we became very, very alert after these repeated episodes.

And, it is my personal opinion as a correspondant that anyone who elicits such a high level of troll behavior is fostering mob mentality.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: shimon ()
Date: March 24, 2010 04:27AM

[Moderator's note: This post has been deleted due to discrepancies concerning its origin, attribution and intent, which could not be reliably verified.]

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/25/2010 04:46AM by rrmoderator.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) has nothing to do with Buddhism
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 24, 2010 12:13PM

Who wrote that piece of poison for Byron Katie? Stephen Mitchell or someone else?

Here is an important point. Byron Katie uses that type of material as deep persuasion propaganda, to shape how people think about her in their minds.
So why post the full-text of Byron Katie promotion propaganda writings, without any attribution, and without any analysis?

This is dangerous material, that fools a lot of people who just take writings like that at face value.
That is not "happy reading" that is a poison pen.

Its nauseating and disgusting material, to try and promote Byron Katie, a flim-flam real estate businesswoman from Barstow, as having something to do with actual Buddhism.
That writing above is full of lies and misrepresentations, which are quite carefully written to have an effect on the reader.

It takes a lot of hard intellectual work, to go through material like that, and point out the techniques being used, and how and why.

So why is that posted, without any analysis, or explanation, and without attribution?
That is Byron Katie quite vulgar propaganda, to try and link her with Buddhism, while incorporating the Byron Katie Official Story, which is full of lies. Its vile material.
That is part of her program of distracting people by filling their conscious minds with that drivel.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2010 12:15PM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) has nothing to do with Buddhism
Posted by: Stoic ()
Date: March 24, 2010 05:09PM

Byron Katie is an equal opportunity exploiter, for the Christians she is a female Jesus figure, for the Buddhists she is Kwan Yin, the female aspect of Buddhism.

If, as the article contends, it is the teaching that is important, not the teacher, why do you have to pay such enormous amounts of money to attend BK's LGATs, schools, Turnaround houses etc, etc to get close to this teacher who does not matter

Shimon, Byron Katie 'joint ventures' with most of the TLC. When her devotees become disillusioned with the endless demands for more and more $ for the LGAT's, schools, etc, she trades them with the other members of the TLC circle. The seekers are still looking for something, eventually they realise BK doesn't have it to give so they are passed to the next one who will bleed them dry with a slightly different story.

Buddhist teaching hasn't changed in millenia, neither has Christian teaching. It is basically the golden rule, be kind, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. You dont have to read about it, be taught it, or even think about it--and you certainly don't have to pay to listen to cockroach stories.
You just have to do it, act with kindness and think about how you would like others to behave towards you and base your own behaviour on that. There isn't anything more, no mystical revelations, all of that is the teaser, the hook, the snare to pull you in.

Byron Katie is a very, very, sophisticated con woman building a huge business in the spiritual marketplace. She makes James Ray look like the beginner he is.
Read a bit more in this thread before you buy into Katies bullshit.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/24/2010 05:21PM by Stoic.

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