'Other so-called "mystical" and/or "satori" experiences have explanations
just as non-magical, non-mystical, prosaic, materialistic, and
neurologically-based.'

I completely agree with the above statement but also think it important not to lean too far towards the psychiatric explanation and demonise all these experiences as 'pathology.'

[www.medicalnewstoday.com]

The brain is a dynamic organ in that everything that we experience or do not experience has an effect on it and hence on how we personally translate that effect into meaning.

Very little is in fact known for certain in brain morphology and the temptation to slap a label on anything that deviates from a strict norm or is only vaguely understood applies to the psychiatric profession as well as to the Byron Katies and other spiritual hucksters of the world. The truth is that the variations in brain morphology are as numerous as the individuals alive on the planet, so there is no one brain that can be held up as a standard issue or the correct way for a brain to be. Those sort of classifications are culturally formed and subject to prevailing fashions as are most other cultural norms.

My brain was extensively tested as I had a lot of experiences, unsought, of alternative realities, but there were no 'pathological' problems found. I found that I could gain some control over the alternate experiences by delving into the meanings and importances that I attributed to these experiences, but in order to do that I had to resist the easy labels that others were keen to slap onto these very personal and subjective experience of alternate realities.

I took the attitude that it was my brain and no-one had the right to tell me either how to use it, what was 'wrong' with it or how to attribute meaning to its functioning. This is my version of the old saw 'Know Thyself' and it is a lot harder work to puzzle all this stuff out for yourself but more rewarding than just accepting whatever the latest buzzword labelling is in fashion.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2010 05:27PM by Stoic.

What Stoic describes is a wise thing to do:

Quote

My brain was extensively tested as I had a lot of experiences, unsought, of alternative realities, but there were no 'pathological' problems found. I found that I could gain some control over the alternate experiences by delving into the meanings and importances that I attributed to these experiences, but in order to do that I had to resist the easy labels that others were keen to slap onto these very personal and subjective experience of alternate realities.

Have a baseline medical evaluation to rule out any underlying condition that could be potentially dangerous if not treated.

Once any serious medical condition is ruled out, that in itself can be a release from potential anxiety and then one can give ones full attention to pondering how to work with ones personal states of mind.

Key thing is, whatever is in your own mind--makes sure it is your own unique foliage.

Dont let for profit entrepreneurs sneak into your garden, tell you its a delusion, pull out all your rare native plants and then sow seeds for their own generic crabgrass.

If someone is already rich and famous and is still not contented with what he or she already has, what kind of wisdom can such a driven person impart, anyway?

A person already rich, already famous, already doted on, who still is restless and wants more and more and MORE.

All they can plant is the crab-grass of craving.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/16/2010 10:16PM by corboy.

Just saw this BK clip on YouTube. I think it is outrageous. The woman appears to be in total denial of any other emotion than her so called joy and happiness. Almost like no one is allowed to be sad when a loved one dies. Isn't sadness part of the natural and necessary grieving process? What I find remarkable is her almost indignant response to whatever anyone says, as if nothing they say is legitimate, but for the way that she herself would response to a similar situation. BK appears to regard herself as an absolute authority on whatever thought, emotion or opinion any person might have. So now she is even indoctrinating children?
[www.youtube.com]

She is almost bullying the little guy. One can clearly see how he is intimidated or overwhelmed by her so called 'wisdom'. He gets no space whatsoever to express how he would feel if someone close to him would die. She practically ridicules him. Especially when she says: 'I really want you to get this...' is beyond arrogance.

BK presents life as simplistic and one-sided, in order to bolster the image of herself as some otherworldly fount of wisdom, and her way of viewing life as somehow 'better' than the view of the person she is instructing. It is an expression of her wish to control and dominate--for which she charges the megabucks.
This article on happiness and adversity presents a more realistic and long-term picture of the life events over which none of us, including Byron Katie, has any control and which can prove beneficial in the long run:

[www.policepsych.com]

(The entire piece addresses a state of emotional maturity and is worth reading)

'A balance between regret and contentment appears elsewhere as a hallmark of successful survival. Psychologist Jack Bauer, of Northern Arizona University, and Columbia's Bonanno interviewed people six months after they had lost a spouse in midlife and tallied the number of positive and negative comments each person made about the lost relationship. Those who initially generated about five upbeat remarks for each critical comment adapted best and were functioning most smoothly two years later. People who had only negative things to say were not doing so well-but neither were those with only positive assessments.

The widows and widowers who ultimately adjusted best to loss were those who could admit to the difficulty and sadness of the situation without being overwhelmed by it. "It's a growth-oriented attitude," says Bauer. "It allows you to take into consideration life's difficulties, while keeping in mind the rosier big picture."

The capacity to simultaneously embrace both loss and growth is an ordinary part of life-a complex, poignant emotional state that is perhaps the greatest reward of maturity. "Even positive memories of the past are bittersweet," says Laura King. "My little boy is now two years old, and I can already see his babyness slipping away. There's an incredible richness and warmth about those memories-but also sadness, knowing that they're tied to a particular time in your life and that you'll never have those experiences again."

Ultimately, that emotional reward can compensate for the pain and difficulty of adversity. This perspective does not cancel out what happened, but it puts it all in a different context: that it's possible to live an extraordinarily rewarding life even within the constraints and struggles we face. In some form or other, says King, we all must go through this realization. "You're not going to be the person you thought you were, but here's who you are going to be instead-and that turns out to be a pretty great life."



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/21/2010 03:39PM by Stoic.

In defense of Byron Katie, you wrote:

[Say whatever you want to, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Since ideas can't hurt people...]

It looks like you're no longer here but just in case, I figured I'd reply. As another poster already pointed out, ideas can absolutely hurt people. And Katie's ideas CAN hurt someone. For example, asking someone to think of herself as the abuser rather than the man who repeatedly raped her as a child, can (and statistically is likely to) lead to further psychological harm.

Byron Katie is right that we should never avoid questioning our own assumptions about reality. In fact I've been reading about Buddhism and her ideas are extremely similar. However, a potentially very harmful part of her methodology is that she expects you not only to consider a different way of looking at something, but to immediately accept it as the 'real' truth, with no subsequent questioning of her line of questioning (an omission which you yourself correctly criticize in another post). She turns a person's reality on its head and then tells that person to accept HER version of reality and stop there. And that can in fact cause direct psychological harm. LGATs do this also, and while many say it does wonders for them, many have also ended up having psychoses and mental hospitalizations as a result. [caic.org.au] As another poster said, "Convincing people that they do not feel what they feel, don't want what they want, don't think what they think can cause severe depersonalisation. (I am a licenced counselor)."

In regard to the Israeli woman whom Katie counseled to overcome her fear of war, you wrote:

[I've never met anyone who isn't under the daily threat of death. Show me someone who isn't.]

Yes, we could all die at any moment from a myriad of causes. But the crucial question in regard to this issue is, "what is the level of one's conscious daily awareness of this?" People like the Israeli woman living in a place where mass premeditated deaths frequently occur (some of which they have most likely witnessed) will have a different mindset and fear level than people who live in a place where events like that are rare.

A friend of mine grew up in NYC. He witnessed the 9/11 attacks because he was in the lobby of the WTC when they started. His level of awareness of the threat of death changed drastically. He got PTSD and ended up moving to Florida. Of course in Florida he's at risk of death from many factors including very bad driving, gator attacks and hurricanes (I'm a Florida native). But these threats to his life aren't part of his daily consciousness and so he doesn't experience that same level of fear as he did in NYC after 9/11.

If our fears were based on statistics, we could all justifiably have PTSD or at least severe anxiety. But they are more often born out of our personal experiences and environment.

jj52,

I feel for you and what you went through! You were definitely in a cult environment in The School. You pretty much summed up every cult experience with your description in your quote below. (Note: I define 'cult' as 'any group or person who uses mind control techniques.') I was in the ICOC for 15 years and the results were the same even though the 'venue' was different. I ended up with PTSD and was in counseling for two years to recover after leaving. During that time I studied cults extensively and hosted a spiritual abuse recovery forum for a while, until I decided I didn't want to constantly focus on that subject anymore. I found this thread after reading a glowing article about Katie in Oprah magazine. (I'm glad I read all this before reading her book, which I was planning on doing!)

It sounds like you're in a really healthy place about the whole thing, which is great :) Isn't it wonderful to be in the REAL world again, with all its quirks and imperfections and 'normalcy' and most of all freedom?

Quote
jj52
Had someone educated us on Thought Reform and the lasting effects it can have on a person BEFORE we handed our minds over to BK, I wonder how many people would actually attend The School? Since we were not told what this might do to us... how "voluntary" was it, really?

We were promised "Heaven", but The School for the Work is hell in a clever disguise.

I seriously doubt I would have attended if someone had said to me, "By attending this School, you will lose your sense of self, and your ability to trust yourself. You will learn to constantly question your thoughts, and feel that nothing is real. You will lose your sense of personal boundaries, and have BK's solipsism drilled into your head for days on end, until you doubt your own religious beliefs. You will become a missionary, searching out other people to bring into BK's fold. You will be out thousands of dollars, and have nothing to show for it. Your deepest traumas will be triggered and brought to the surface. Then, you will be left to your own volition (and The Work) to try to sort through them. You will become dependent on BK for guidance. You will lose your ability to communicate with and relate to the general population. You will come to see yourself as nothing."

"And, if you really do your School well, you will become convinced that you like what has happened to you."

Since no one told me that prior to my decision to attend, I will not accept that everything was "voluntary." I did not choose that. Instead, I was told that I would find "the only way to God" and the "end of suffering."

That is the biggest lie ever told.

Guruphilliac, Eduardo... I invite you to take this into consideration. But of course, it's totally voluntary.

-jj

Quote
The Anticult
The alleged Guruphiliac, Jody, has made a response about Byron Katie, and it is quite ugly.
Comment #15
[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]

Guruphiliac's conclusion...

BLAME THE VICTIM...of organized systematic thought reform that is founded on extreme deception and manipulation.

This guy is supposed to have something to say about these issues?
The best he's got is BLAME THE VICTIM?
Blame people who are suggestible for getting hit with 100+ thought reform techniques at once?
Is this guy for real?

Unfortunately, there are those who really do feel like we are responsible for all of our pain and don't think that anyone under 18 can ever actually be considered a 'victim' of anything that doesn't fall under the realm of physical force (and even then they point out ways that we helped contribute to getting hurt in those situations). After I left the cult I was in for 15 years, I participated in a discussion forum for members and non-members of the group. There was another ex-member who also posted a ton, who while able to see a lot of things wrong with the group, would never allow that members of the group were victims of something beyond their control. He was of the 'no-one put a gun to your head' mentality and refused to acknowledge the MENTAL guns that were used on us to get us in and to keep us from leaving and to get us to do bad things. He believed mind control was a 'myth.' He and I had many run-ins!! I believe he had/has that mindset because he was unwilling to see himself as a victim of anything and acknowledge that some things in life are just simply beyond our control. And mind-control is still a grey area; even many psychology professionals still don't believe in it even in light of all the evidence.

[Okay, maybe Oprah...]

Oprah's just an unwitting 'guru promoter' because she's always looking for good self-help methods. She's like the 'guru database' or maybe the 'guru hub.' ;) Does that make her the Ultimate Guru?

Quote
jj52
Why didn't he just say: "I don't want to be a guru, so don't ask me for advice"? What is all this awkwardness around brunch, and your spouse's agreement of qualities you may have? What in the world does that have to do with being a guru? Absolutely nothing. It's just extra little details in an attempt to convince the audience that what he says is true.

That is a really good point! Instead of just simply stating something, there are all kinds of extra little phrases that are added to disarm and relax people and make them like the person and be more willing to believe what they say. Geez I probably do this myself! We learned a lot of great little 'tricks' in the cult that, because I was a member from age 18-33, are probably still part of my methodology of social interaction. Ugh!