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The Anticult
Does "ralpher" stand for a proud Byron Katie The Work Vomiter?

ROFLOL!!!

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The Anticult
So these guys play Mind-Tricks that would be laughed out of a Philosophy 101 course on the first day. But sadly, the public is not as trained as it needs to be in these areas. We need some serious education in this stuff.

There are two courses that I wish were required in high school: 1) Home Economics, and 2) Cult Awareness.

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The Anticult
People should STAY AWAY from all of these unlicensed crackpots, who are doing a type of group psychotherapy without a license. It should be illegal for these untrained abusers to go and mess around with things like TRAUMA, that can lead to suicide.
It would be great one day to put strict limits on these people and to block this type of pseudo-psychotherapy without a license.
Just like you can't practice medicine without a license. that is ILLEGAL, and it used to be legal.
The same needs to happen here. There has to be some laws put into place to protect people.

You know, mind control IS actually illegal in many first-world countries. In Europe especially they really crack down on it. Scientology was stamped out in Germany. However, the overarching protection of freedom of religion here has clouded the issue in the U.S. (because of course cults use that rallying cry to their advantage) and the legal system has not been successful in putting any anti-mind-control laws in place. But we're getting closer to that goal as more and more victims of mind control step forward with personal lawsuits. [www.factnet.org]

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The Anticult
also I am truly blown-away by the intelligence, flexibilty of thought and insight from the people in this forum, who are analyzing Byron Katie, and the other LGAT seminar manipulators. Truly amazing. Many hundreds of people, and over time even thousands, will be helped by exposing what is really going on inside the Byron Katie seminars.
End the secrecy and conscious deceptions.

Maybe even one or two of the Byron Katie Senior Trainers will lie awake at night, sweating over all the damage, lies, distortion, and blatant hypocrisy. Maybe she will have crisis of conscience, and think it over, and then come out and tell everyone what is really going on, and help a lot of people.

I am new to this forum (as you can tell by all my posts) and I also am really impressed with all of the posters.

I was thinking that maybe BK might finally have a nervous breakdown because of all the criticism sessions at her School where people are supposed to stand up and criticize her and she just has to take it without defending herself. That HAS to be seriously messing up her mind more than it already is. Not that I wish for that to happen to her, but if it means that her deceptive "Work" ends, then it would serve a good purpose.

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Spiritual Recovery Resources: [forums.delphiforums.com]

[Does anyone have any suggestions for books and/or resources for dealing with people like this?]

Someone may have already suggested this, but Steven Hassan's books are excellent resources not only for understanding personal experiences with a cult, but for communicating effectively with current cult members. I've only read his first book Combatting Cult Mind Control but my understanding is that his more recent one Releasing the Bonds has even more detailed and refined advice for helping/dealing with current cult members. [www.freedomofmind.com]

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Spiritual Recovery Resources: [forums.delphiforums.com]

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jj52
We paired off into groups and practiced listening to what people were saying literally... everything. It was supposed to train us to filter out all sarcasm, hidden meanings, implications, insinuations, etc. Now that I think about this... that's really messed up!

My husband is always telling me to do that - just listen ONLY to the actual words he says and ignore the tone and everything I know about how he talks and what he's feeling by his body language and even choice of words... *sigh* it's one of our few bones of contention. I don't think it's realistic or fair to ask someone to do that. 90% of communication is via tone and body language, and even subtle variances in choice of phrasing, and not the words themselves. Plus he reads my tone and body language all the time (which I bet BK does too with others) and I always point out to him the double standard there! LOL The last time it happened was last night. He said, "So, am I cooking dinner tonight?" But I know from experience that if he really wants to do something he just says, for example, "Hey, why don't I cook dinner tonight?" The way he worded it last night said three things to me: 1) he's really hungry, 2) he's hoping I am planning to cook dinner but he doesn't want to outright ask for fear of sounding demanding or sexist, and 3) he doesn't really want to cook but he will if necessary. So I responded "I was just planning on heating leftovers" in what he told me was a 'snippy' tone. And he resented the 3 conclusions I drew based on his choice of phrasing, and felt like I should have just been happy that he was willing to cook. (typical man-woman scenario). After the altercation that followed, my conclusion was that a proper response to his literal words would have been "I don't know, are you?" in much the same way that lady said to you, "I don't think there's a chance." My example is, of course, trite and amusing after the fact. But the point is that there is sooo much more to communication than just words. To try to simplify it to only that level IS controlling and ignoring a big facet of the reality of human relations.

P.S. hmm maybe it's time to sit down with him and hash this out instead of just complaining about it when it comes up (or on public forums tee hee).

Just to clarify - I was replying to Ralpher in this message. :)

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Splash90
In defense of Byron Katie, you wrote:

[Say whatever you want to, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. Since ideas can't hurt people...]

We talked last night and he clarified that he's ok with me reacting to and pointing out his tone or body language - what he doesn't like is that I assume I know what he must be feeling without asking him. :)

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Splash90

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jj52
We paired off into groups and practiced listening to what people were saying literally... everything. It was supposed to train us to filter out all sarcasm, hidden meanings, implications, insinuations, etc. Now that I think about this... that's really messed up!

My husband is always telling me to do that - just listen ONLY to the actual words he says and ignore the tone and everything I know about how he talks and what he's feeling by his body language and even choice of words... *sigh* it's one of our few bones of contention. I don't think it's realistic or fair to ask someone to do that. 90% of communication is via tone and body language, and even subtle variances in choice of phrasing, and not the words themselves. Plus he reads my tone and body language all the time (which I bet BK does too with others) and I always point out to him the double standard there! LOL The last time it happened was last night. He said, "So, am I cooking dinner tonight?" But I know from experience that if he really wants to do something he just says, for example, "Hey, why don't I cook dinner tonight?" The way he worded it last night said three things to me: 1) he's really hungry, 2) he's hoping I am planning to cook dinner but he doesn't want to outright ask for fear of sounding demanding or sexist, and 3) he doesn't really want to cook but he will if necessary. So I responded "I was just planning on heating leftovers" in what he told me was a 'snippy' tone. And he resented the 3 conclusions I drew based on his choice of phrasing, and felt like I should have just been happy that he was willing to cook. (typical man-woman scenario). After the altercation that followed, my conclusion was that a proper response to his literal words would have been "I don't know, are you?" in much the same way that lady said to you, "I don't think there's a chance." My example is, of course, trite and amusing after the fact. But the point is that there is sooo much more to communication than just words. To try to simplify it to only that level IS controlling and ignoring a big facet of the reality of human relations.

P.S. hmm maybe it's time to sit down with him and hash this out instead of just complaining about it when it comes up (or on public forums tee hee).

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jj52
I remember telling someone at The School how strange it was that BK seemed so confused. She stammers often, and blinks and nods... like a robot trying to process or retrieve the information you requested... If I had a dollar for every person I saw sitting there with that blank look of utter confusion on their face... well, I would have my money back from The School!

I think it's more likely that she acts that way because she has a mental health problem of some kind. Corboy wrote a post that listed a bunch of people thinking they had become suddenly enlightened or had a metaphysical experience when actually there was something physically wrong with their brain. [forum.culteducation.com]

Reading the examples he gave in that thread made me think that Byron Katie most likely experienced dissociation, a mental distortive phenomenon that can occur spontaneously either as a reaction to psychological trauma or as a result of physical stress, especially brain damage such as a stroke or tumor. Dissociation is a very pleasant and peaceful experience, since you are unaware of yourself or who you are or what you know; all you can do is physically use your 5 senses but with no thoughts behind what you are experiencing. (Eckhart Tolle almost certainly had a psychosis of some kind which gave him the same mindlessness but for much longer.) Katie (and Eckhart) took this to be the way they should consciously strive to live, and wanted to pass it on to others. They claim it to be the ‘true’ reality, but it’s actually a distortion of reality. I have often thought that’s probably what also happened to Siddhârtha Gautama (founder of Buddhism) too. He was emaciated and exhausted, and spent several days in meditation under a tree (all or any of which could cause dissociation), after which he attained ‘enlightenment’. [en.wikipedia.org] But after his enlightenment he didn’t charge people to learn how to get it and he always said each person has to work out their own enlightenment.

Another thing that she could have going on is a mental health disorder called "Narcissistic Personality Disorder." NPD is widely believed to be universal among people who gather followers via mind control -- whether it be political (like Hitler) or religious or financial. When I went to counseling to recover from my cult involvement, my counselor read some of the speeches by the cult leader. She said they sounded exactly the way people write who are schizophrenic. And the description of NPD fit him to a T.

______________________________________

Spiritual Recovery Resources: [forums.delphiforums.com]

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jj52
Personally, I'd rather be miserable and be in myself, than be blissed out and dissociated. I guess that's why it didn't work for me! I'll take good ol' fashion stress any day over "coming out of myself."

Before reading the O article about Byron Katie, I had been reading a book of introduction to Buddhism. Everything she says sounds just like what I was reading about Buddhism. Buddha also claimed to have gone through the same sudden enlightenment experience in which he entered a non-ego reality (see my post above; I think in both cases it was clinical dissociation brought on by overwhelming stress). So it makes me wonder: is Buddhism/The Work just basically the practice of numbing yourself out by only allowing yourself to think about the world and your own life in ways that don't lead to stress or negativity?

Byron Katie is becoming more and more mainstream. I was at a bookstore yesterday in Salt Lake City that I hadn't been to in a while, just passing time because I was on-call for work in downtown SLC. It's a "metaphysical" bookstore and I don't frequent them like I used to anymore. There was a whole display on a wall with her products, books and CDs and her face everywhere. If I didn't know anything about her the impression I would get would be a compassionate, intelligent, insightful woman. The way she smiles, the way she holds her chin in her hand to convey "I'm listening to you" "tell me everything" "I care". (Blech!) There are also "The Work" facilitators and retreats advertising in Utah. I think Katie is as dissociated as a fox. She can't do what she does without being highly intelligent and manipulative and aware. I think narcissitic personality disorder or even sociopathic personality disorder fit her more.

In the bigger book chains like Borders and Barnes and Noble, she's also getting more visible and is doing collaborations with the even more popular authors like Wayne Dyer ("Making Your Thoughts Work For You") and Eckhhart Tolle. I don't understand how someone with such shady practices can pass into mainstream self-help field unnoticed for what she is. And I don't understand what the hell Oprah is thinking. After the James Ray incident you'd think she'd be a little more careful in who she promotes.

I just wanted to clarify two things about my 5/14 posts:

1) Buddhism does not use unethical mind control methods and is most certainly not a cult. [www.freedomofmind.com]

2) The definition of the word "dissociation:"

Dissociation is a partial or complete disruption of the normal integration of a person’s conscious or psychological functioning.[1] Dissociation is a mental process that severs a connection to a person's thoughts, memories, feelings, actions, or sense of identity.[2] Dissociation can be a response to trauma or drugs and perhaps allows the mind to distance itself from experiences that are too much for the psyche to process at that time.[3] Dissociative disruptions can affect any aspect of a person’s functioning.[4][5][6][7] Although some dissociative disruptions involve amnesia, the vast majority of dissociative events do not.[8] Since dissociations are normally unanticipated, they are typically experienced as startling, autonomous intrusions into the person's usual ways of responding or functioning. Due to their unexpected and largely inexplicable nature, they tend to be quite unsettling. Different dissociative disorders have different relationships to stress and trauma.[9] Dissociative amnesia and fugue states are often triggered by life stresses that fall far short of trauma.[10][11] Depersonalization disorder is sometimes triggered by trauma, but may be preceded only by stress, psychoactive substances, or no identifiable stress at all.

- From [en.wikipedia.org]