The Commitment Pattern--it is used by LDS outreachers

(Note to potential disruptors: The purpose of todays post by Corboy is not to raise issue with the LDS. I am doing is to highlight covert Sales Techniques.

These techniques need to known and understood so that we can recognize their covert usage by anyone, no matter what their ideology or group afflition)

It may be that the LDS may be a source of techniques for some who go on to become New Wage entrepreneurs.

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Subject: How do we say 'no thanks?' to the Mormon Missionaries
Date: Dec 13 13:28 2002
Author: KBR

We've felt a need and desire to incorporate (christian) religion into our lives, so ... when 2 Mormon missionaries knocked on my door a few weeks ago, I invited them in. After that first visit, I thought I might have found a church we would be happy with. Their message was positive, seemed to promote family values and a sense of community. Just the fact that two 19 year old, nicely dressed and polite young men were out doing "God's work" impressed me. ...

Well, with each succeeding visit, we've had more and more doubts. We are both analytical people so of course we turned to the internet to read everything we could find about the LDS ... something the missionaries asked us not to do. A week or so ago, they brought by a 2 hour video about Joseph Smith, which my husband and I watched together. I know the missionaries meant for it to inspire and convince us, but I'm afraid it had the opposite effect. It only confirmed my suspicions that Joseph Smith was just a con artist. One thing I did tell the missionaries straight up is that while we are firm believers in Christ, we are suspicious of the motives of man. Really, I guess I meant it as a warning ... if you're here to talk about Jesus Christ, you have my undivided attention, but if you're here to promote some bible thumping swindler, we're not interested. Indeed, the LDS seem really to just be the church of Joseph Smith: story teller, crackpot, adulterer, megalomaniac.

We're expecting the missionaries back this evening and as of their last visit, we're being pressured about baptism. We haven't been to any Sunday services but we did go with them to the temple visitor center just outside of D.C. ... I'm afraid we've encouraged them and now have no intention of joining their church. What really makes it hard is that we like these young men and hold nothing against them personally. Also, they showed up unexpectedly yesterday for a quick visit and my dog bit one of them. I feel bad!

(Corboy note: When in doubt, trust your dog. Dogs read non verbal information far better than we do)

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Subject: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."
Date: Dec 13 14:35
Author: Pt Loma

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It's just like when Toto pulls back the curtain of the wizard's control booth. All the information is out there on the net, so that you can make an informed decision, and the missionaries only want you to know THEIR version of the facts. If every investigator spent a little time researching this on the net, there would be VERY few baptisms of converts.

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Subject: The commitment pattern
Date: Dec 13 14:15
Author: Bob

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The missionaries use a sales tool called the commitment pattern, ask them about it. Its steps are:

1. Build relationships of trust
2. Present the message
3. Ask for a commitment
4. While doing all of the above, resolve concerns.

It is very difficult to say no to missionaries, because during each of the first 3 steps above, they are trying to do number 4, and they believe that you are saying no because they haven't done a good job resolving concerns.

So, your choice is to either convince them that they are wrong, or just say know and let them leave feeling that they haven't done their job.

Bob

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Subject: About telling you not to go to the internet?
Date: Dec 13 16:11
Author: Cheryl

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It's like a car sales man telling you not to check Consumer Reports and not to talk to others who the the type of car he sales.

Of course high pressure salesman want to be your only source of information. Think about why.

The Book of Mormon won't help you because it's a supposed history book. It contains very little doctrine. J. Smith wrote it before he formed the church or wrote the church rules and dogma. The Book of Mormon is more window dressing than informational about the church.

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You must very clearly and consistently JUST say, "I am not interested in learning more about Mormonism" or . . .
Date: Dec 13 15:07
Author: Gazelle

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the missionaries will not stop bothering you.

They have GREAT SUCCESS with people who have trouble saying, "no", because they are very persistent. They are under enormous pressure from their Mission President to produce "baptism" statistics. You are a very important statistic to them.

Other posters are right. They will try to "understand" your concerns so they can "resolve" them.

This tactic keeps the door open to them.

They WILL have neighbor members call on you to keep the door open. Watch out for the Mormon LOVE BOMB.

What you described happened to my wife and I in 1974. We, too, were "impressed" with the missionaries. Joining Mormonism was the biggest mistake of our lives. Believe me, it is nothing as kind and nice as the Methodist Church.

They will give you the "milk" to get you baptized and then later give you the "meat".

The milk is only a nice appearance; the meat is really spiritually abusive.

Suggest you strongly say that you do not want to continue with the discussions. All of us on this board are some stage of emotional, spiritual, and psychological recovery from the damage Mormonism has done with our lives.

I hope you can hear our hearts, and God bless you.

[209.85.173.132]

Missionary tactics here:

[www.exmormon.org]

Finally

"The Book of Mormon is more window dressing than informational about the church. "

(crickets chirping)



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2009 09:14PM by corboy.

On the website where I found the above material, there is a subection on Double Bind in the LDS.

It might be interesting to see if readers can identify similarities.

Main site:

exmormormon.org

LIFE AFTER MORMONISM and THE DOUBLE-BIND

[www.exmormon.org]

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My main symptom was that I could never quite think, or do things "right" --- I felt and thought that something must be terribly wrong with my mind, because significant others could always set things "right" for me, therefore, I must be "stupid." It was implied that my problem wasn't shared by others; I was told that it was I who needed to change. I believed this assessment. But if I needed to change, how could I --- if I didn't know what my problem was. My search began with three questions: What was wrong with me? What was my problem? Does it have a name? I was willing to abide by whatever I found to be true. What I found through a trial and error search, following threads and connections, was a pattern of behavior I finally identified and named The Pattern of the Double-Bind.

What I also discovered was that I was not alone in my dilemma; as I continued on, the Pattern began to assume Universal implications. At first, I found that my loved ones, and others in Mormonism, were also trapped inside it, unknowingly, the same as I; this created an urge to find its origins.

It was in this extended search that I found that The Pattern went way beyond my own personal experiences in Mormonism.

The Pattern is not obvious, the reason being that its insidious nature operates silently with powerful cultural taboos and customs contained within it: one must not see, hear, speak, or question anything contrary to its unexamined "truth."

Once I had discovered The Pattern in my own life, it was particularly painful to realize that I had "voluntarily" cooperated, as an "accomplice," in perpetuating a lie --- a lie masked as a truth.

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Mormonism is not the only corporation of its kind to be based on this Pattern, but it is where I first discovered it.

In extending the ramifications of this Pattern to its logical end it is found that it causes the very problems it claims to be able to cure ... by the use of the cause!

It is a circular system used to control others which reverses the possible evolution towards intellectual integrity ... a form of de-evolution, and in its extreme form leads to mental havoc and possible madness. Yet, at the same time, it claims to be the means of obtaining peace of mind through "intelligence."

In other words, The Pattern is a form of illogical "logic."

Needless to say, I found out what was "wrong" with me; my ability to think rationally, to question, was condemning me; reason is the enemy of the Mormon church.

The cure for this madness is its opposite ... it is to be able to reason without fear. This is made possible by the exposure and understanding of the cause, hence, the aim of this book ... to expose the nature of The Pattern and to show how it is possible to live a life relatively free from its web of deceit

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Finally, I outline How to Free Oneself from The Pattern; the last few chapters introduce a positive orientation to life that is possible when free from The Pattern's destructive influence. Another book, one of a series (in process), will further document the Pattern's early extended historical origins. The finding, knowing, and understanding the original principles connected with the history of the Double-Bind help to clear and lift the mind and emotions to an aerial view where it is possible to more fully claim one's own personal Identity, which the use of The Pattern destroys --- whether that use is perpetrated consciously, or unconsciously.

What follows is my attempt to explain this illogical logic ... logically.

Take a peek at this article, especially the section labelled 'The Reversal'

[www.exmormon.org]

Sound familiar?

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corboy
Take a peek at this article, especially the section labelled 'The Reversal'

[www.exmormon.org]

Sound familiar?

Wow! What an article! I've only read through it once and have printed it to study more. I also want to read the author's examples in the link provided at the end of the article.

S/he articulates so much of my own experiences. I also recognize where I have (at times) been the binder. :-(

I've often stated that so much in cultic abuse rest on trust; I know that has been the case for me. Within a few months after exiting my group I described some of what happened as a "soul suicide," again pointing at myself as the "volunteer" who "freely chose." Then I (with hesitancy) described it as "soul murder." The article above calls it "Psychological Cannabalism." I can see pretty clearly how a doctrine and belief system underlies the prolonged deception; at least for me.

*********************

I'm Oneperson what has posted some over on guruphiliac. I haven't read this entire thread, but have been trying to keep up with the last 10ish pages. Thanks for the insights... :-)

Thanks!
~carol

I tend to oppose protecting the guilty. ~Fred Poole

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jchpiper
Wow! What an article! I've only read through it once and have printed it to study more. I also want to read the author's examples in the link provided at the end of the article.

S/he articulates so much of my own experiences. I also recognize where I have (at times) been the binder. :-(

Hi Carol and welcome. :-)

I have to admit that I felt challenged in completely understanding the points of that article. I was able to agree with bits and pieces of it, but wasn't totally sure I was really "getting" it all. Perhaps I need to read the article following it, since that article uses Mormonism to illustrate the author's points.

Another thing... if you can recognize some times where you might have been in the role of the "binder", that is really something. For one thing it shows you have a conscience! Until pretty recently, I believed that absolutely everyone was good at heart. But then someone recommended the book "The Sociopath Next Door" and after reading it, I had to admit that I'd had a handful of close encounters over the years with sociopathic type people. From what I've experienced with that type of person, they really do not have a conscience. Supposedly about 1 in 25 people is some variety of sociopath. (There are different types/shades of that personality, apparently.)

I would wager that if you ever really WERE acting in the "binder" role, you learned it from someone else, perhaps a sociopathic type. (Of course I could be wrong, but my Spidey senses say I'm not. ;-P)

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jchpiper
I'm Oneperson what has posted some over on guruphiliac. I haven't read this entire thread, but have been trying to keep up with the last 10ish pages. Thanks for the insights... :-)

Thanks!
~carol

Wow, that's really something that you feel comfortable sharing that about yourself! I do hope you will find this forum supportive. I sure have.

Thanks for the welcome h2t.

I can't say I understand the article completely, but many points really hit home. I shared it with a therapist this morning who after reading it suggested I might enjoy Janja Lalich's book Bounded Choice. I've read one of her (co-authored) books, but not that one.

Where I saw myself as a 'binder' were certain things I've done in parenting. Part of what underlies that (I think) was certain doctrine(s).

As far as stating who I am...well...I'm not necessarily comfortable with it. *chuckle* Plus, for my own 'coming out,' I've been steadily ridding anonymity....simply a personal choice. That said, I'd have the same screen name here as the other forum, except that when I tried to join here as 'oneperson,' I discovered I'd already joined under a different screen name. ha!

I must confess I've stated (elsewhere) that this site can be a bit overboard for me. But the more I read the more I'm discovering that it is quite helpful.

Thanks again,
~carol :-)

I tend to oppose protecting the guilty. ~Fred Poole

for those who are interested, the latest in a long line of BK spin-doctors...who generally fall off the BK Talking Points wagon pretty fast...is posting in the other thread on IDEAS on how to KICK-OUT byron katie from your mind.
Perhaps his viewpoints will also help to eliminate Byron Katie from the brain, forever.

Jim Dodds [forum.culteducation.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 09:17AM by The Anticult.

JimDodds has been banned from the message board.

Thanks, RR.

Eek, I can only imagine what Jim tried to post before he got the boot.

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jchpiper
Thanks for the welcome h2t.

I can't say I understand the article completely, but many points really hit home. I shared it with a therapist this morning who after reading it suggested I might enjoy Janja Lalich's book Bounded Choice. I've read one of her (co-authored) books, but not that one.

Where I saw myself as a 'binder' were certain things I've done in parenting. Part of what underlies that (I think) was certain doctrine(s).

As far as stating who I am...well...I'm not necessarily comfortable with it. *chuckle* Plus, for my own 'coming out,' I've been steadily ridding anonymity....simply a personal choice. That said, I'd have the same screen name here as the other forum, except that when I tried to join here as 'oneperson,' I discovered I'd already joined under a different screen name. ha!

I must confess I've stated (elsewhere) that this site can be a bit overboard for me. But the more I read the more I'm discovering that it is quite helpful.

Thanks again,
~carol :-)

Janja Lalich! I recently purchased her co-written book, "Take Back Your Life". I started it but then got sidetracked with other reading material. I'm glad for the reminder about that book, will put it back on the top of my pile of stuff to read.

As for your example of the "binder" role in parenting, I can relate, having been a step-parent. (I imagine being a parent to one's own children is even more of a challenge.) I can recall at least one icky event where I really lost it with my stepson and... well, I don't even want to dip into that memory further, it was so unpleasant. I could hardly believe my behavior. Fortunately, my stepson and I were able to work out a friendly relationship over time. (Those first few years were terribly hard. I'm glad they're over!)

When I ended up divorcing his dad after being involved with him for 13 years, my stepson was astoundingly supportive to me. That was amazing.

Oops, getting off on a tangent...

I agree that this board can be a lot to take in. In the beginning when I read some people's stuff here, it felt so over my head that I ended up skipping over some of their longer posts. (Eventually I went back and read them.) Maybe it was because I had been so convinced Byron Katie was a genuine healer at the time and I didn't want that threatened? Who knows. Anyway, the more I read here, the more I opened up to the possibility that Byron Katie was NOT what she and her organization were trying to present her to be. I'm now convinced that her methods are actually a form of mind rape, soul rape. That is my emphatic opinion, based on my direct experience of The Work, including sessions with a "facilitator".

I realize there may be people reading these posts who will find my use of those terms extreme: mind rape, soul rape.

However, I believe the terms are quite fitting. As I said, I HAVE done "The Work".

Anyway, thanks for joining in the discussion. It's nice to get a new perspective. :-)

Regards,
H



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/29/2009 09:18PM by helpme2times.