Subject: How do we say 'no thanks?' to the Mormon Missionaries
Date: Dec 13 13:28 2002
We've felt a need and desire to incorporate (christian) religion into our lives, so ... when 2 Mormon missionaries knocked on my door a few weeks ago, I invited them in. After that first visit, I thought I might have found a church we would be happy with. Their message was positive, seemed to promote family values and a sense of community. Just the fact that two 19 year old, nicely dressed and polite young men were out doing "God's work" impressed me. ...
Well, with each succeeding visit, we've had more and more doubts. We are both analytical people so of course we turned to the internet to read everything we could find about the LDS ... something the missionaries asked us not to do. A week or so ago, they brought by a 2 hour video about Joseph Smith, which my husband and I watched together. I know the missionaries meant for it to inspire and convince us, but I'm afraid it had the opposite effect. It only confirmed my suspicions that Joseph Smith was just a con artist. One thing I did tell the missionaries straight up is that while we are firm believers in Christ, we are suspicious of the motives of man. Really, I guess I meant it as a warning ... if you're here to talk about Jesus Christ, you have my undivided attention, but if you're here to promote some bible thumping swindler, we're not interested. Indeed, the LDS seem really to just be the church of Joseph Smith: story teller, crackpot, adulterer, megalomaniac.
We're expecting the missionaries back this evening and as of their last visit, we're being pressured about baptism. We haven't been to any Sunday services but we did go with them to the temple visitor center just outside of D.C. ... I'm afraid we've encouraged them and now have no intention of joining their church. What really makes it hard is that we like these young men and hold nothing against them personally. Also, they showed up unexpectedly yesterday for a quick visit and my dog bit one of them. I feel bad!
(Corboy note: When in doubt, trust your dog. Dogs read non verbal information far better than we do)
Subject: "Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."
Date: Dec 13 14:35
Author: Pt Loma
It's just like when Toto pulls back the curtain of the wizard's control booth. All the information is out there on the net, so that you can make an informed decision, and the missionaries only want you to know THEIR version of the facts. If every investigator spent a little time researching this on the net, there would be VERY few baptisms of converts.
Subject: The commitment pattern
Date: Dec 13 14:15
The missionaries use a sales tool called the commitment pattern, ask them about it. Its steps are:
1. Build relationships of trust
2. Present the message
3. Ask for a commitment
4. While doing all of the above, resolve concerns.
It is very difficult to say no to missionaries, because during each of the first 3 steps above, they are trying to do number 4, and they believe that you are saying no because they haven't done a good job resolving concerns.
So, your choice is to either convince them that they are wrong, or just say know and let them leave feeling that they haven't done their job.
Subject: About telling you not to go to the internet?
Date: Dec 13 16:11
It's like a car sales man telling you not to check Consumer Reports and not to talk to others who the the type of car he sales.
Of course high pressure salesman want to be your only source of information. Think about why.
The Book of Mormon won't help you because it's a supposed history book. It contains very little doctrine. J. Smith wrote it before he formed the church or wrote the church rules and dogma. The Book of Mormon is more window dressing than informational about the church.
You must very clearly and consistently JUST say, "I am not interested in learning more about Mormonism" or . . .
Date: Dec 13 15:07
the missionaries will not stop bothering you.
They have GREAT SUCCESS with people who have trouble saying, "no", because they are very persistent. They are under enormous pressure from their Mission President to produce "baptism" statistics. You are a very important statistic to them.
Other posters are right. They will try to "understand" your concerns so they can "resolve" them.
This tactic keeps the door open to them.
They WILL have neighbor members call on you to keep the door open. Watch out for the Mormon LOVE BOMB.
What you described happened to my wife and I in 1974. We, too, were "impressed" with the missionaries. Joining Mormonism was the biggest mistake of our lives. Believe me, it is nothing as kind and nice as the Methodist Church.
They will give you the "milk" to get you baptized and then later give you the "meat".
The milk is only a nice appearance; the meat is really spiritually abusive.
Suggest you strongly say that you do not want to continue with the discussions. All of us on this board are some stage of emotional, spiritual, and psychological recovery from the damage Mormonism has done with our lives.
I hope you can hear our hearts, and God bless you.
My main symptom was that I could never quite think, or do things "right" --- I felt and thought that something must be terribly wrong with my mind, because significant others could always set things "right" for me, therefore, I must be "stupid." It was implied that my problem wasn't shared by others; I was told that it was I who needed to change. I believed this assessment. But if I needed to change, how could I --- if I didn't know what my problem was. My search began with three questions: What was wrong with me? What was my problem? Does it have a name? I was willing to abide by whatever I found to be true. What I found through a trial and error search, following threads and connections, was a pattern of behavior I finally identified and named The Pattern of the Double-Bind.
What I also discovered was that I was not alone in my dilemma; as I continued on, the Pattern began to assume Universal implications. At first, I found that my loved ones, and others in Mormonism, were also trapped inside it, unknowingly, the same as I; this created an urge to find its origins.
It was in this extended search that I found that The Pattern went way beyond my own personal experiences in Mormonism.
The Pattern is not obvious, the reason being that its insidious nature operates silently with powerful cultural taboos and customs contained within it: one must not see, hear, speak, or question anything contrary to its unexamined "truth."
Once I had discovered The Pattern in my own life, it was particularly painful to realize that I had "voluntarily" cooperated, as an "accomplice," in perpetuating a lie --- a lie masked as a truth.
Mormonism is not the only corporation of its kind to be based on this Pattern, but it is where I first discovered it.
In extending the ramifications of this Pattern to its logical end it is found that it causes the very problems it claims to be able to cure ... by the use of the cause!
It is a circular system used to control others which reverses the possible evolution towards intellectual integrity ... a form of de-evolution, and in its extreme form leads to mental havoc and possible madness. Yet, at the same time, it claims to be the means of obtaining peace of mind through "intelligence."
In other words, The Pattern is a form of illogical "logic."
Needless to say, I found out what was "wrong" with me; my ability to think rationally, to question, was condemning me; reason is the enemy of the Mormon church.
The cure for this madness is its opposite ... it is to be able to reason without fear. This is made possible by the exposure and understanding of the cause, hence, the aim of this book ... to expose the nature of The Pattern and to show how it is possible to live a life relatively free from its web of deceit
Finally, I outline How to Free Oneself from The Pattern; the last few chapters introduce a positive orientation to life that is possible when free from The Pattern's destructive influence. Another book, one of a series (in process), will further document the Pattern's early extended historical origins. The finding, knowing, and understanding the original principles connected with the history of the Double-Bind help to clear and lift the mind and emotions to an aerial view where it is possible to more fully claim one's own personal Identity, which the use of The Pattern destroys --- whether that use is perpetrated consciously, or unconsciously.
What follows is my attempt to explain this illogical logic ... logically.
Take a peek at this article, especially the section labelled 'The Reversal'
Hi Carol and welcome. :-)Quote
Wow! What an article! I've only read through it once and have printed it to study more. I also want to read the author's examples in the link provided at the end of the article.
S/he articulates so much of my own experiences. I also recognize where I have (at times) been the binder. :-(
Wow, that's really something that you feel comfortable sharing that about yourself! I do hope you will find this forum supportive. I sure have.Quote
I'm Oneperson what has posted some over on guruphiliac. I haven't read this entire thread, but have been trying to keep up with the last 10ish pages. Thanks for the insights... :-)
Thanks for the welcome h2t.
I can't say I understand the article completely, but many points really hit home. I shared it with a therapist this morning who after reading it suggested I might enjoy Janja Lalich's book Bounded Choice. I've read one of her (co-authored) books, but not that one.
Where I saw myself as a 'binder' were certain things I've done in parenting. Part of what underlies that (I think) was certain doctrine(s).
As far as stating who I am...well...I'm not necessarily comfortable with it. *chuckle* Plus, for my own 'coming out,' I've been steadily ridding anonymity....simply a personal choice. That said, I'd have the same screen name here as the other forum, except that when I tried to join here as 'oneperson,' I discovered I'd already joined under a different screen name. ha!
I must confess I've stated (elsewhere) that this site can be a bit overboard for me. But the more I read the more I'm discovering that it is quite helpful.