Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 17, 2009 12:28AM

The Four Questions--Pesach


Introductory Question

Ma nishtana ha-laila ha-zeh mi-kol ha-lelot?
Why is this night different from all other nights?


First Question

She-be-chol ha-lelot anu ochlin chametz u-matza, ha-laila ha-zeh kulo matza?
Why is it that on all other nights during the year we eat either bread or matza, but on this night we eat matza?


Second Question

She-be-chol ha-lelot anu ochlin she-ar yetajit, ha-laila ha-zeh moror?
Why is it that on all other nights we eat all kinds of vegetables, but on this night we eat bitter herbs?


Third Question

She-be-chol ha-lelot en anu matbilin afilu pa'am echat, ha-laila ha-zeh shetay fe'amim?
Why is it on all other nights we do not dip even once, but on this night we dip twice?

Fourth Question

She-be-chol ha-lelot anu ochlin bayn yoshvin u-vayn mseubin, ha-laila ha-zeh kelanu mesubin?

Why is it that on all other nights we eat either sitting or reclining, but on this night we eat in a reclining position?


These Four Questions preserved history and did not obliterate it

These Four Questions did not end suffering

These Four Questions put suffering into a communal context.

These Four Questions replaced solitary affliction with communal meaning and the meaning is different for each person.

People, be vigilent

Do not allow someone to take your story away from you and replace it with their story.

That is oppression.

Our animal friends communicate and send signals.

As far as we know, human beings are the only life form on this planet that create and transmit stories.

And it may be one of the real malaises of today is there is not enough time, the texture of our days is not loose enough for the different generations to hang around and share stories.

Anything that separates you from your story dehumanizes you.

It may make you feel powerful, but in the long run, you're cut off from your core self, your communal self, a self that began with your forebears and was transmitted not just through DNA but through stories.

DNA is impersonal. Stories are personal.

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Byron Katie (the Work) and Torture Stories, who is the torturer?
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: April 17, 2009 12:58AM

and what is the meaning and the message, of these Torture Stories, by Byron Katie?
What's it about?

Message #1:
The first message is the same as before...that even under Torture, there is no such thing as "influencing" the decisions of a person!!! That is literally what she is saying.
Just on a factual level, that is obviously completely false, an utter fraud to insane proportions. Everyday people are tortured...and made to "admit" to things they did not even do, and they even sometimes start to believe they did it. Torture is a horrible crime against humanity, and it can be used to get almost any person to admit anything, even if they did not do it.

Has Byron Katie been tortured in her life?
Of course not. She is completely ignorant on the subject of torture. Ask Amnesty International [] or other groups, about what torture is about.
She is simply using it, as a metaphor that there is no such thing as "coercive influence" even using torture! Never mind the powerful influence techniques that she uses in her seminars and elsewhere, which can even be more persuasive than physical pain.
Of course, torture is coercive influence, and of course, powerful permissive persuasion techniques, when done by an expert on naive targets, can get them to do almost anything. This is what they are trying to distract from.

Message #2: Give the torturer what they want.

Who is the torturer? And what do they want?
Well, guess what. The BK LGAT system, and what lies beyond, is literally ultimately emotional "torture" for those who get into it deeply.
And the coded message here is, give the torturer what she wants.
What does she want? What does she ask for?

But it doesn't mean she is going to stop, even after she gets what she wants.

This appears to be the ugliest material out there today, in this area. It certainly is the worst anywhere, when one factors in who is being targeted.

BK talks about walking through dangerous neighborhoods...why? Same process. To train her audience to IGNORE their own internal warning signs which are telling them...DANGER DANGER, in regards to the BK seminars, BK systems, and the salespeople at BKI. BK is constantly trying to train people to ignore their own healthy internal warning signs for danger.

The Byron Katie Story plot makes perfect sense, when seen from the perspective of the emotional torturer...uh...seminar mugger...uh....LGAT seminar anti-guru.

Jay Cruise

At the end of this video BK on youtube tells to a young girl that even under torture we are responsible for our actions: What's the reality of pressure?

"You know someone could torture me and as an intelligent human being, but before you do that what do you want? That could save you a lot of trouble and me a lot of pain. And that doesn't mean they won't torture me anyway, but as an intelligent being, I make the choice. I make the choice. If they are torturing me and I say it, I give them what they want because they tortured me. Who made the decision? I did. I can't say "they tortured me, they made me do it." I did it. It's an intelligent decision. And it doesn't mean they're gonna to stop. I cannot, cannot not take responsibility for my own mind and action. Because until I take responsibility the world is my problem." []

Her idea of freewill exists under all circumstances. She often says that she wouldn't mind walking through dangerous neighbourhoods at night, which is not taking into account the safety of her followers who might follow her example. What's worse is that there is no way someone so interested in profitting off her followers would ever put themselves in danger.

So her followers are told not to worry about possible consequences of their actions, not to be concerned if something terrible happens to them and to consider themselves the perpetrator when they feel victimized. She's losing the plot.

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 01:04AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 17, 2009 04:51AM

In the 1970s, there was a very shitty joke that was not a joke.

It took the form of slogan buttons and in some cases, bathroom graffiti.

'Stop rape. Say yes.'

People who have been traumatized cant stand the horror of powerlessness and betrayal and will often pretzel their own minds to get a sense of false empowerment by convincing themselves or allowing the perpetrator to convince them that they 'asked for it' or 'wanted it.'

The article on projective assault by Stanley Rosenman describes this process all too well.

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Byron Katie (the Work) and Steven Sashen
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: April 17, 2009 05:25AM

another thing about the Steven Sashen and the Duh promotion.
You will notice in his video, he starts to cough right at the beginning, and makes other mistakes in the video, but he left them all in. Why? He could have just shot another web-cam video, that didn't look so amateur.
After all, he charges over $150 a hour, which are high-rates.
Why did he leave all the mistakes in? Because that is his "performance style", acting casual and indirect. Its a deliberate choice to leave the "mistakes" in.

Also, you can see his eyes darting around, and how he is giggling to himself, and how the video closes with a forced laugh. It reminds one of the TM Transcendental Meditation people, and how they giggle when they are pitching their meditation product, like the Giggling Guru himself.
When Sashen was shooting this video, he was alone in his office, yet he almost makes it seem like he is hanging out with "his girlfriends".
Also, from his BK days, you can see he mainly targets females.

and contrary to the self-giggling, he is being very forceful, to get people to sign up for his Twitter account, etc. He almost commands that part...which gives him a platform.

So is this just being done for fun?
No, its self-marketing, for him to try and get a book-deal, and also to try and promote his "coaching", and he sells numerous types of "coaching".
No one needs this type of so-called coaching, costing over $150 an hour, over the phone.
People can look back in this thread, and seem some very unpleasant information from about Steven Sashen's "coaching" and how he uses the BK Turnaround on people, in very harmful ways.

About Steven Sashen:
Check this out: []
It looks like the guy loves to hear himself speak, and thinks he is very funny.
I actually heard that at some point BK threw him out herself, after he had been working for her. She used to make fun of him behind his back.

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Byron Katie (the Work) and free will, advanced sales techniques
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: April 17, 2009 06:08AM

It interesting how Byron Katie talks about Free Will, and freedom of choice.
How she says there is free choice even under torture, and under a Nazi's gun. (obviously that is totally false...but)

Even putting aside symbolic meanings...
even professional trained military soldiers, are not necessarily held accountable for what they say under torture. REAL torture, not yuppie Stories at a Byron Katie seminar.
Real torture exists for a reason, because its a powerful form of terror influence. Even Galileo was just SHOWN the torture instruments, and he recanted that the earth orbited the sun. Talk about Influence.
Anyone, like BK, who says that torture isn't powerful extreme coercive influence, is simply lying to an audience that has no experience in that area, luckily for them.

So its really just a cover-story for Byron Katie, to deal with some of the inner doubts her followers are having. They are feeling manipulated, tricked, lied to, coerced, from the dozens of techniques she is doing to them...yet at the same time they are confused. So she is telling them...its all Voluntary, you have not been persuaded at all.

The mind-blowing thing is that people BELIEVE her!
Its like saying at noon, there is no sun in the sky.

For those who have attended dozens of advanced influence/sales seminars, you learn there are dozens and even hundreds of advanced influence techniques.
For example, at most of these advanced sales seminars, its usually about 50% real estate agents.
So obviously, Byron Katie being a real estate pro for years, would have attended many of these sales trainings. Often companies like RE/MAX give tons FREE TICKETS to their people, as they know the techniques work!
If there is one seminar that might be worth attending, its an advanced sales seminar, to learn about reality. (never bring any money, or credit cards, as they WILL sell you things you don't want or need).

So in reality, Byron Katie trying to say, there is no such thing as powerful influence, is simply misdirection, directed at her own people.
As a matter of fact, that is what Byron Katie actually IS. She is not just some lady with books...she is one of the most advanced practitioners of social influence on the scene today. What makes her especially damaging, is the audience she has chosen.
She wouldn't get anywhere with an audience trained in these methods, which is why she picked an audience who seemingly haven't heard of any advanced influence and sales techniques. (its a multibillion dollar business, by the way).

For example, if she actually believed what she said about Free Choice, then anyone could go on her website and post links to the threads explaining her seminars, and other techniques. Why won't she allow that?
Because she is afraid the facts will "influence" people. This is why they closed their internet open forum.
If she really believed in Free Choice as she says, then someone could cross-post these posts right into their forum. But they won't allow anything like that, as they have to control the INFORMATION flow, as that creates the influence.

So those who are higher up in the BK system, who see what is going on, its time to speak out, and pay heed to your conscience. Since enough info has come out, they won't be able to say 5 years from now..."I didn't know what was happening".
When people are getting hurt, and others know about it and do nothing...

Information can be placed on
Blogs can be set up, posts can be made, exposing the facts, and the truth.
Detailed information can be sent to the media.

If people are REALLY going to have a Free Choice, they need full freedom of information, and full disclosure.
this is why BK has hidden the seminar information, as it serves like a surprise bushwacking. LGAT's all hide their techniques, as if they don't, they don't work very well.
Are insiders going to allow this type of manipulation to go on for years to come? How many more innocent people are going to get bushwacked?
Or are those who know the insider facts, going to speak up, and tell it like it is?

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 06:12AM by The Anticult.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Jay Cruise ()
Date: April 17, 2009 08:02AM

Blame the Victim : Pity the Perpetrator

While Byron Katie says tortured jewish people in concertration camps and sexual abuse victims are to blame/responsible for their own actions and victimization and are free to choose between punishment and obedience, here's what she has to say about perpetrators:

[] "Our Innocence"

They're innocent! Clearly they had no choice! Zero choice! That corrupt witch!!

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: April 17, 2009 08:23AM

Thanks for that, Jay.

Byron Katie in that video: "Life comes out of your imagination."

Yeah, right. I'll try that one on my landlord at the end of the month: "I'm not paying you rent anymore. I've just been imagining you."

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 17, 2009 09:48PM

Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity

(Okay, has this caught everyone's attention? Good. It is the title of an article from a medical journal. Peer reviewed. Adult world. Printed on paper. No one can make it disappear by flushing it down the cyberspace toilet.)

Jay, thank you for that. You put something complex into a nutshell

Blame the victim, pity the perpetrator

There is a double standard Ive seen for years. The New Age scene reeks of it, and so does the Dharma Lite scene.

My opinion, is that many persons affected by trauma, whether in person, or transmitted through family suffering, try to deal with that trauma by becoming seekers.

Unfortunately, in the New Age/Dharma Lite scene, they are given a message of false empowerment--take care of the perpetrator.

Win a prize in the Compassion Olympics by cooing over the poor pathetic perpetrator.

The victim--nah. Too obvious. But to feel compassion for someone who continues to abuse thier power...that gets you the New Age Gold Medal for Compassion.

In this scene, people try to sidestep trauma by playing language games, by dissociatively splitting off from the horror they cant stand to face inside themselves, splitting off from the betrayal they cant stand to recognize.

Folks, I know I sound mean and nasty.

But I know how it hurts to face the ghastly truth of being radically lied to by people I loved and trusted. Found some stuff out two years ago and I had 5 months of stress induced insomnia that was so severe that I nearly went nuts. If I had had the slightest bit of genetic loading for schizophrenia or bipolar, I wouldve landed in the hospital.

As it was, I was so batshit from sleep deprivation that I felt like I was on a wobbling boat at sea while walking down the sidewalk, typing errors piled up higher by the day as I wrote stuff, and my eyes stared and my face grew haggard and looked 20 years older.

If I had not had access to medical care, I'd have been in seriously deep shit.

Thats the price of owning a previously dissociated trauma. And I think I paid a milder price than many people do.

Rather than have this horror, people often prefer to buy some notion that there is no such thing as power abuse.

They split off from their own suffering and allow themselves to be convinced their suffering is illusory. But all too often this happens in relation to the guru teaching them this escapism:

Your suffering is illusory--thats the spoken and written message.

But...nonverbally, in the day to day routine of the ashram or online, there is subtext:

Only the gurus suffering is real. Only the guru ( or powerholder) is considered worthy of compassion. Thier surgeries get spoken of, cooed over. Your much greater illnesses are illusion.

The person on the receiving end of the abuse, the dumpee, is to blame.

One author has a most interesting personal definition of charisma:

'I am using the term 'charisma' here in a special sense to denote that numinous personality change deliberately infused into the victim'.

This was written about 30 years ago by Leonard Fischer/Agehananda Bharti in his Memoir, The Ochre Robe. He lived through the Nazi occupation of Europe and was horrified by the effects on people. Later, in India, he was perturbed by how many people he met who considered Hitler an avatar, reasoning that because he had attained so much power, Hitler must have had superb karma. Power equalled legitimacy. Those with this opinion had no ablity to make any distinction between legitmate/benevolent power and power stolen using lies and used for evil purposes.

Power equaled legitimacy. It is a very primitive state of mind, yet can co-exist with a high IQ and considerable social charm--in which case run for your life.

What is yet more interesting is that decades after Bharati wrote this in Ochre Robe, a psychoanalyst named Stanley Rosenman seems to have identified a similar process and describes it in detail.

Stanley Rosenman has written about how identity and even emotions are interfered with when someone else inserts thier own introject into targeted persons--victims.

Rosenman examined this only in the context of traumatic assault, such as rape or prolonged torture.

He didnt consider that this could be done by seduction, persuasion, by presenting oneself as a guru and securing peoples attention by promsing priviliged access to the ancient heritage of India.

But we are free to ponder this. Rosenman has suggested that a self impaired perpetrator may seek immortality by injected shards of his or her introject into others.

This article is worth reading. Therapists can get it through subscription to PEP. Others may have to look for it at a psychoanlytic institute library.

But I think Rosenman manages to describe the same process alluded to by Bharati:

'I am using the term 'charisma' here in a special sense to denote that numinous personality change deliberately infused into the victim'.

I took some rough notes on Rosenman's article.

Rosenman, S. (2003). Assaultive Projective Identification and the Plundering of the Victim's Identity... Journal of the American Academy of Psychoanalysis., 31:521-540.

(abstract of article)


A destructive mode of projective identification is delineated: a predator's catastrophic attack calculated to cause the victim a stress disorder marked by a disarrayed identity. This discomposure enables the perpetrator to aggrandize a manifold inroad upon the victim's identity to imprint, intrude, mingle and/or lodge his representation into it; to ravage, steal from, impoverish, and/or corrupt it; finally to have his representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. The victim's debased integrity is manifest in the symptoms of his ensuing posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD)."



"The article was grim reading, but very, very informative. The Rosenman article is an updated version of the material presented by Lapin.

Rosenman made use of testimony from people who had survived parenting from adults traumatized by war and persecution, and from persons who had survived prison atrocity, torture and other forms of prolonged, grievous assault. (This is not good stuff to read within an hour or two of bedtime--learned that the hard way.) (My note - any trauma the parent suffered would count).

The stuff that jumped out at me is that many times perpetrators present a very pathetic wounded child aspect of themselves while simultaneously intruding on and damaging vulnerable targets. ((Though Rosenman does not say so, this wounded pathetic child aspect of the perp is probably flip side of the vibrant charming child aspect of the perp when he or she is being sunny and seductive.))

The pathos literally disarms us--both before we are assaulted--and it disarms us after we are assaulted, by shaming us into distrusting our anger and revulsion at being trust busted.

This matches with how many abusive gurus (like my doctor, warped's doctor\bf, all our abusers) go into pathetic grand opera mode when feeling misunderstood--the pathos. It brings their defenders out of the woodwork (their relatives, friends, followers). Even those grievously victimized by Cohen still feel afraid to be disloyal and this has greatly muzzled the survivor's community and prevented it from becoming an effective agent for reform. Despite knowing how cruel and dangerous Cohen (one particular "guru" we've been following in CA) had been to them and that he was continuing to do this, most of the survivors pull their punches and feel afraid to be disloyal or hurtful-even a woman who was pressured and tormented to surrender over 2 million dollars still felt this hesitation. IT all fits with what Roseman describes--the seductive pathos of the tormentor.

In using pathos,the perp sets it up so the victim gets shamed and conned into feeling parental and loyal to the wounded child in the perp--and in feeling protective of the wounded child in the perp, the victim is simultaneously conned into disowning his or her own violated innocence. In this scam, its the powerholder/perp who gets the compassion and the victim ends up shafted with disorientation, shame and self loathing.

Two, Rosenman notes that perps feel soiled by what they've been through and some get a temporary sense of renewal and invigoration by disrupting the innocent happiness of their target and witnessing the person succumb to the shock that the perp went through. Rosenman noted that survivors of atrocity may resent and envy their children at having a chance at happiness and may force the children to become privy to the parent's grim outlook on life--a kind of misery loves company dynamic. (my note - they HATE our happiness. My doctor, and the LGAT he tried to suck me into, try to persuade clients that they don't know just how miserable their lives are. Many alternative practitioners use this underlying unhappiness as the "hidden cause" for illness).

So the identity and emotional life of the perp get transferred into the targeted victim and takes over the victims inner life. IF you're a child, you dont feel free to explore life on your own terms. You feel your own energy and happiness are taking something away from your parents. Roseman noted that some perps get a sense of immortality, or at least a sense of mastery (the vampire) by taking over the inner lives of their victims and (to quote the abstract) 'have (the perp's) representation emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning. '

Now...doesnt this sound exactly like an LGAT's agenda--'emerge as an internal regulator of the traumatized prey's functioning.' The set up is a socially engineered assault/disorientation that punctures boundaries and fosters injection of the LGATs' "representation" so that it then takes over and runs the targets inner life for them--and sets up a conflict between true self and the foreign and predatory material injected by the LGAT. (my note - we both have had experience with either gurus or LGATs, but this injection applies to abusers in general - they become part of your internal workings).

But Rosenman's article describes another part of the process--the way perpetrators use thier pathos, their woundedness, to feel entitled to leech from others---and use their pathos to charm their victims into parenting them--and shame thier victims to ignore their own valid revulsion at being leeched from. When someone is pathetic, its hard to face that they are dangerous and using pathos as a cloaking device.

The tip off when perpetrators abuse others this is that:

*Only the perpetrator's childhood pathos and suffering gets respect.

*The perpetrators adult agency in continuing the legacy of abuse--is ignored, trivialied--or given a spiritual rationalization.

*The perpetrators adult agency is foisted onto the victim.

***And the shattered powerless victim (often groomed and pre-selected by the perp because he or she is vulnerable, is conned into parenting and nurturing the wounded child in the perp while the adult voice of the perp cons the victim into feeling responsible for the perps actions. The victim feels powerlesss and craves a sense of agency, so may accept the perpetrators definition of agency---"You made it happen. You made your own abuse." Its only abuse because you CALL it abuse.
And a false sense of agency in feeling parental toward the the poin

***The victim is conned a sense of false empowerment by parenting the perpetrator.

The predation being done in in the present moment is denied. The experience of the victim suffering in the present moment is given no respect whatsoever."

Stamp out rape. Say yes.

As I wrote elsewhere:


In New Age and Dharma Lite circles, there is a phobia against honest, frank speech.

And it may be that people who allow themselves to be emotionally spayed or neutered may at an unconscious level get off on following a leader or guru with anger management problems, because the leader gets to indulge the anger and other behavior forbidden to the followers.

One also sees this where a guru or leader milks his or her sufferings for pathos, and monopolizes compassion, while the followers are forbidden to see their own pain as equally valid.

The followers care for the guru while failing to give a damn about their own well being and fail to give a damn for the well being of each other.

All compassion is monopolized by the leader, while denied to the followers.

The leader becomes an insatiable black hole, absorbing all the emotional energy and vitality of the group. The leader is allowed to be angry. The leader is allowed to be cared for. The leader's sufferings (even when its just something that can be remedied by surgery) is exaggerated as drastic.

The followers are forbidden anger, forbidden care when suffering, told to 'turn it around' when they feel perturbed, forbidden to defend themselves or see thier own perspective as valid.

Only the leader's perspective is valid. Only the leader's experiences and emotions are real.

But from Janaki's account, the leader never has to turn it around.

A guru who is greedy and nasty can become a emtional surrogate of sorts, carrying and acting out impulses and emotions forbidden to the followers.

In Janaki's case, she mentions being in some Indian gurus ashram at age 14, then she follows Muktananda, then gets involved with BK.

That is a very very long time to be in guru-land. That very likely meant she was socialized to disown emotional boundaries early on and then rationalize this disowning of valid anger and emotional boundaries under the guise of spiritual rationalization.

The poison of an LGAT is that you think you are fully autonomous when in fact the toxic introject of the forum leader has been downloaded into a subconscious part of yourself and is working you as a puppet so as to defend the LGAT, disrupt dissent by trolling, or by earning money and running PR.

Stanely Rosenman--has spent a lot of time counseling and writing about the issues faced by survivors of the Nazi holocaust but also the impact the parental trauma has had upon children and even grandchildren of those who survived.

Dr Rosenman has not 'lost the moon'

Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 10:13PM by corboy.

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Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: April 17, 2009 10:22PM

Things to Make and Do

Make a T-shirt and wear it to some New Age jamboree:

Proud Victim


Unrepentant Victim

Unashamed Victim

(Come on, maybe we can come up with more--lets have a T shirt contest. Just dont knock each other over, running off to Cafe Press to market it.

A guy in New York once got crabby and manufactured a Fuck Yoga T shirt for himself. So many people begged to know where he got it, that he began to sell them. I was bored one night, typed fuck yoga into Google and found it. Dont know if he survived the recession or not. )

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/17/2009 10:24PM by corboy.

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Byron Katie (the Work) voluntary free-choice, advanced sales tech
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: April 17, 2009 11:45PM

its interesting how the Byron Katie LGAT system, and other thought-reform systems, make the claim its all about voluntary free-choice.

But, you can't have voluntary free-choice without proper disclosure.
You certainly can't have voluntary free choice, with extreme SECRECY, and outright misdirection, and dishonesty.

So if groups, like the BK LGAT system, really did believe in voluntary free-choice, they would not conceal what they are doing. They would disclose it openly.
But instead, what they do is hide what is really going on, and even program their own people not to tell others what went on in the seminar. (that is literally the first step in training people to lie for them).

So in reality, in order for people to make a voluntary free-choice, they need to understand what is going on. They need to be aware of the dozens of persuasion techniques being used on them.

How many people who attended a Byron Katie seminar in the past, had ever even heard of an LGAT seminar, and its techniques? If someone asked that question at one of her seminars in the past, there is a good chance that ZERO people attending would have ever even HEARD about these seminars.
Never mind understanding the powerful persuasion techniques being used.

There is no voluntary free-choice, when there is powerful persuasion engineering bombarding people from every side at once. There is no free-choice in unawareness. There is no free-choice if the FINE PRINT is hidden, and not disclosed.
Only after a person understands how the dozens of precise persuasion techniques work, can they make a real voluntary decision and free choice.

The interesting thing here, with the Byron Katie system, is that their own words, if studied, reveal what they are doing. The very fact they have gone to such great lengths to hide their persuasion methods, shows that they understand that conscious awareness of these methods effects the persuasion process.
Once people can see exactly how someone is persuading and manipulating them, it really doesn't work very well. That is well studied. It can still work, but its probably 90% less effective on most people. Which is why they always try to distract the "thinking mind" from thinking about the techniques being used!
In this case, they even go so far as to pretend there are no techniques.

Many other LGAT's, will admit to SOME techniques to fill the minds of the attendees, while hiding the more powerful techniques, to retain their full power.
But its rare they try to hide all of their techniques. The only way to really do that, is to claim the seminar leader is some mystical intuitive savant, who never read books or seminar manuals, or attended many dozens of seminars, and copied their methods, then customized them!

But there is no free-choice, when the consent is being carefully engineered.
That is what the art of persuasion is.

The ability of the leader to get people to do what she wants them to do, and have them think it was their own idea.

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