Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: corboy ()
Date: March 29, 2009 01:16AM

Here is something to look at.

Note how 'A' stated in her report on Jodys forum that BK actually seemed to WELCOME persons who arrived showing signs of mental instablity.


I'd have thought Katie would have screened more carefully to reduce her liability in these cases, but she actually seemed to welcome the more severely disturbed. I was aware that no deliberate or careful screening of mental and physical problems appeared in on-line registration. Signing up involved giving demographic info, sending money that would not be refunded, and not much else. We was not asked about diagnosis or medication until we arrived...a bit too late to shoo away people who had come from all over the world.

1) Most folks who struggle with mental illness tend to be shunned or disbelieved. So to be 'welcomed' as described by the informant quoted above, might by itself be intense
love bombing for someone who doesnt usually get a lot of affirmation, let alone from someone who has turned herself into a celebrity, meaning her photos on books are everywhere, including pop up adverts online, fliers on bulletin boards and new age stores health food marts and yoga studios, issues of throw away monthly mags that serve the new age scene.

And ---all the various Dharma/Yoga industry magazines. Those mags need to survive by selling advert space. People like BK have the dough to BUY acres of advertisting space and that means her face and name show up all over the place in new age venues.

(Just because someones advert is in a Buddhist magazine, does not mean they are Buddhist. All it means is they have the money to pay for advertising space in that particular magazine.)

Okay, so BK, by the definition of media exposure alone, rates as a celebrity. Ubiquitous marketing.

That's power, folks. Dont deny it. Ever meet someone you've only seen in the news but then you see them face to face?

Its trippy. Its powerful. Even if you can resist it, you still feel a tingle.

Now, here you are, mentally ill, feeling shame ridden already, used to people ignoring you, tuning you out--and someone whose face is all over the media is PAYING ATTENTION TO YOU.

Welcoming you in a way most of the non famous people in your life dont do.

Yowza. Thats looks like mega love bombing.

2) (This is sinister, but Ive been in homeless work and can vouch for this being true, too true)

If you are already mentally ill, when arriving at the hotel due to pre-existing biochemical and traumatic loading, or you later become destabilized as a result of the hardhships of the LGAT, here is the problem:

Suppose a crazed and dishevelled subject/victim to tell the police or the people at the hospital (whether they arrive during the workshop or afterward) that they need to be rescued from the celebrity leading the events or whose name is on the event literature.

The cops or the intake people at the hospital may only know of BK because they see her face on books ubiqutously displayed at stores, posters on the health food stores where they shop.

BK's face is as much in display in the new age scene as Barack Obamas face is in the mainstream media.

So...the cops or intake personell are likely to assume these people are not victims, but are crazed and that BK is part of their delusional system! They'll risk being ignored or taken to the hospital and snowed down with meds until they shut up.

You can get away with a lot if you decide to attract a following of disturbed people because they belong to a socially stigmatized catagory where no one wants to be with them or believe what they say.

Anyone who does 'welcome' them will seem like Jesus.

For those who want an idea of how hard it can be for mentall ill people or people crazed temporarily by stress to be believed, go read Rosenhans classic 30 plus year old paper paper entitled 'On Being Sane in Insane Places.

Rosenhan and several non psychotic accomplices did a participant observation experiment. They pretended to be crazy, contrived to be admitted to mental hospitals, and once there, they behaved eminently sanely.

While in the hospital, everything they did was labelled nuts. Making your bed neatly was labelled obsessive compulsive. Not making your bed was labelled disorganized, and so on. They were scapegoats. (This was 30 plus years ago when there were sufficient funds to keep people in psych hospitals).

Now, if the organizers of the Work event find the police pounding on the hotel door...and BK happens to be leading it, she will probably know how to cool things down. And maybe the cops see her picutre a lot, figure shes famous and knows what shes doing.

And even if BK isnt leading the workshop (Janaki noted some people think BK will be leading a workshop, pay thorugh the nose arrive and find out BK isnt there in person, but is giving the talks via Skype and that counts as her being present).

In that case, its up to the facilitators to deal with any problem.

(Note: If you are a facilitator and a Situation happens and BK isnt around to take care of it, YOU gotta take care of it. And if YOU happen to have a clinicians license and the doo doo hits the fan, your license is possibly on the line. BK doesnt have a clincians license, so she doesnt have one to lose. Ever talk to your lawyer about this?)

As for the therapists and nurses who might hypothetically take care of hospitalized people who have been Worked to breaking point, they may be too overworked or untrained to see the salient differneces between genuine cognitive behavioral therapy and this stuff.

Who are the cops, or the ER charge nurses or the shrinks in PES gonna believe?

The crazed sleep deprived people, some of whom may be off their meds to purify themselves, and with circadian disruption due to lack of sleep and in some cases, being thousands of miles from home who say that they lost it in a Work program associated with BK, whose photo is on all the brochures and books at the stores? (and online, too?)

The cops and intake people are far more likely to assume these folks are merely garden variety nuts and BK is part of their delusional system.

If they try to tell people what BK did to them, it will be written off as part of their 'delusional system.'

Finally if any of these poor people beg for help from passers by to be rescued, they are likely to be ignored.

People who work or routinely go through areas full of homeless people tend to get hardened and shut down. Especially those who have tried to help and have been scammed too many times.

And..if you want your Work subjects wandering the streets, the smart thing is take em to an area where the neighborhood is already innundated with crazed people whom everyone already ignores.

Because, if you had a sudden influx of crazed, starving sleep deprived people tipped out onto Rodeo Drive in Beverly Hills, the merchants would go batshit and call the cops.

Finally, even if a local hospital were to catch on that something strange is happening, they cannot by laws governing confidentiality, say anything. They are professionals.

Meanwhile, BK the nonprofessional reportedly, from this account, oversaw this , as described by March 2009 participant:


At all times, there was a staff member in the back of the room speaking very softly into a dictophone, recording every story and event. Katie's books are largely made up of these stories and a release is signed at the beginning, giving permission for your stories to be used. One could literally feel the next book taking shape in that room. It might have been a "voluntary" exploitation, but exploitation it was, nonetheless.



The Shame module was perhaps the most disturbing unit in the School. I believe this took place in the morning of Day Three, although I admit to losing track of what day it was (we were always either in the windowless conference room, on the 30-minute silent and led walks around the blocks nearby, or, briefly, on the grassy lawn in front of the hotel or in the halls of the hotel when we were set free to do The Work with a partner).

(corboy note: lack of exposure to sunlight can be very disruptive to circadian rhythm and is very bad for anyone genetically loaded for bipolar)

In the Shame unit, we were instructed to write down the thing we'd done in our lives that we were most ashamed of, then take the mike and tell the whole group, then do The Work on it with a partner. Shaming is a subtle but powerful component of psychological abuse used in every torture and mind control process. People stood up and, sobbing or preening, revealed everything from bestiality and zoophilia to embarrassing physical features, infidelity to poor parenting that bordered on abuse. Many people told of having been abused and shamed by that.

The reward for producing a novel or particularly painful shame experience was Katie's cooing, warm approval and attention.

This was such a powerful exercise that, for the next few days, Katie would interrupt whatever exercise was in process to say that so-and-so desired to tell about their shame. Folks who had kept quiet during the Shame module apparently could not resist being part of it all, taking that microphone, and joining Katie's "family."

Although Katie said, after the confessions had begun, that we should not reveal anything illegal, many seemed not to understand that bestiality, child abuse, etc., were illegal in the US

(Corboy note, if BK 'doesnt read books' according to her husbands interview comment, *why should anyone take her advice on what can be talked about vs what is illegal?*

Note: some things are not only illegal, there is no statute of limitation, meaning you can be prosecuted any time in the future if a complaint is filed and there is enough legally admissible evidence to support a case for the prosecution. )

Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 01:46AM by corboy.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Moving the Word
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 29, 2009 03:40AM

Hi Christa:

I think maybe I didn't communicate properly, as I do agree with what you are saying.
I think the reason that most cult experts haven't clued into certain specific techniques, yet, is simply that they have not had that specific training. Its too expensive!
They may have had other training, and other experiences, but not that specific kind.

Also, its a tricky subject. Most of them would want to avoid terms like "hypnosis" as that can be taken the wrong way in the media and public, with various misunderstandings. The probably try to focus on more obvious problems for clarity?

Personally, the main reason for spending time on the BK story, is that no one has really clued into what she is doing, yet. The media seems to be mainly staffed by blind monkeys with typewriters at this point.

Also, I do agree the detailed knowledge is not going to be known by the general public, so it has to be explained in more common terms.
For example, Dr. Robert Cialdini has a good book called INFLUENCE, hopefully there will be more books like that, on these specific topics.

The best way to spread info in this thread, is by making various links and posts to the thread around the internet. Once there are many links, then the search engines work better.

Also, it would be helpful for former BK members, to make their own blogs, or posts, in their own words, something that current BK members can identify with.
As these companies target audiences who are not generally critical thinkers, which is a deliberate marketing tactic...knowing the customer.
but its hard to compete with companies who are spending a lot of money to have dozens of blogs and ads pumping their advertising BS.

It might also be a good idea to make another BK sub-thread here, maybe, with copies of the first-hand reports from the BK seminars, with minimal commentary, and info about certain topics put together in a logical fashion? but that might make it more confusing...

There is so much information in the thread, it is overwhelming.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. I completely agree with TAC about the importance of hypnosis (and I do understand hypnosis to be a form of focussed attention and increased suggestibility) in lgat recruitment and maintenance.I know perfectly well TAC wasn't exaggerating.

When I said experts, I meant experts who write about cults, not experts in separating people from their money, like Stever. I KNOW Stever's not going to do anything but pick my pocket, and I know he's not going to interfere with his income stream, or more accurately, income ocean, by explaining to me how he does it.

I meant, why didn't any of these cult experts, many of whom have had cult experiences, write about the fact that the mind control starts at the first handshake, or even the first eye contact, and that we all have to be mindful of that? I truly don't believe they're propagandists or liars; a lot of these people were writing about their own horrible experiences, and they had gone to great lengths to understand the nightmare that befell them. I really think they didn't know the whole story of what happened to them, the fact that what they understand to be mind control starts from the get-go. That puzzles and worries me.

I'm not sure the kind of in-depth education that TAC describes is necessary in order to warn people to WATCH OUT. I don't have that kind of education, and I feel very equipped to warn people about the dangers of malicious persuasion. I now know for sure it exists, and (sadly) I know how dangerous it is. I think years of study are necessary to explain how it all works, but that's a different issue. And yes, lgat sales techniques are a big part of selling people into these groups. That's another topic that I would like to see future books elaborate much more fully, and it's also a topic that these threads do a great job of explaining.

I agree that the (mis)use of hypnosis/persuasion needs to become an area of formal public education, but that's in the future. Right now, today, we have great, easily available, informal public education right here on this site. I've learned a graduate seminar's worth of lessons from this thread alone. Is there a way we could get people to look at the information here _before_ their lives are devastated? That's what I'm wondering.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Jesus Christ II
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 29, 2009 04:33AM

Good work, anyone can see the techniques and patterns even in this older book.
As mentioned in the book, Byron Katie went over literally every word in that book with a fine tooth comb.

They are pumping the EYE-GAZING technique even then, as mentioned. That appears to be her primary method. You can see the Suggestions right in the text, framing how people are to interprete her "eyes". They talk about the eyes "shining/blazing" over and over. Obviously, the human eye receives light, and does not shine! She took that from the new testament, in Revelation, where there is some similar talk about shining eyes, etc. The quotes are similar.

QUOTE from REVELATION 1:14: "His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire" []
(notice the hair color matches too! what a comedy).

So even back then, she was preparing her subjects before her first meeting, in the same way Stephen Mitchell and others do now in blogs.

there is much more here to look at, and to come back too...

but notice how Byron Katie makes Christin Lore Weber think she is Jesus Christ II? She knows Christin was a christian mystic, so she pressed that button with ambiguity, encouraging her to Project her WomanChrist idea onto her. But notice how she does it in a permissive way, asking questions, and allowing the subject to come to their own conclusion? That is much more powerful, and is well-studied.

With someone who follows an eastern Guru like Swami Muktananda, she did the exact same technique.

Jay Cruise
Anticult Katie's first book has a good example of the staring. In A Cry in the Desert author Christin Lore describes meeting Byron Katie and feeling like a mouse in a field being preyed on by hawk. This is obviously somewhat staged by the author under Katie's direction because the whole book is setting Katie up as Jesus beginning with this first meeting. She lays it on way too thick. It is written from the perspective of a new student which leads the reader through the authors reactions, inner emotions and finally onto these desired conclusions.

After pressuring Christin to expose her thoughts and fears and making her clearly uncomfortable she procedes to inject her philosophy into the student which begins with is "all the beliefs you've constructed.. are unnecessary.. only illusion.. Unlearn those beliefs."

From page 16:

All at once Byron Katie looked straight at me. "I'm Byron," she said and smiled.

Never had I seen eyes like that. Later Sandra called them "see-through." Someone else called her the "lit lady." I thought her eyes looked silver. To another they looked turquoise. The thing about which we all agree is that Byron Katie's eyes shine.

"I'm Christin." That was as far as I intended to go, at least untill I found out more about her.

She locked onto me. She seemed like a hawk, I later thought, soaring in on me, and no matter how I dodged she wouldn't let me get away.

"What are you thoughts?" She smiled and waited. What a strange question. Answering it could take all night - a lifetime, maybe. That's why I write books: My thoughts are manifold. I pour them out. Package them. Store them on shelves.

I decided to be careful. It's so easy to be fooled.

"I thought about that on the way over and decided that I want to learn." These were my words. I had actually thought: I'll just sit there and listen and learn. I'll only say something after I'm comfortable and then only if I really have something to say. I don't want to risk too much; I feel too fragile. I don't want anyone to know about the fear that popped out the other day.

"Ah, you are a student." She seemed pleased.

I wasn't a student anymore. I had graduated - lots of times. I had degrees. I had written books, taught classes, lectured, done all sorts of things. I used to be a student. Being called a student reduced me to a beginner in the work to which my whole life had been devoted. On the other hand, just the other day I had felt three years old and as frightened as if I had never learned a thing.

"You might say that," I admitted.

"Tell me your thoughts. What is it you would like to learn?" She leaned forward. Those eyes radiated. She looked like a female Buddha, but also like the hawk.

I started to feel like a mouse in a field. The hawk soared. "I would like to learn about fear," I blurted out. Caught in the open. No place to hide. The screech of the hawk; the shadow of the wing.

"Fear results from the belief that you are going to lose something or not get something you want. There is no exception to this, even as your ego attacks itself." So simple. But it felt like she was reading my heart. She said more, but I can't remember it. Her words hit home. I felt tears slip down my cheeks. My fears seemed childish but at the same time gripping. I was embarrased to admit them but felt powerless to escape them.

"Now tell me about your fears." She waited.

I took a deep breath. "Pretty much what you said. I'm afraid of losing what I love."

"And exactly what is that?"

My mind said no, you can't say your fear aloud. You can't admit you fear childish things. Only uneducated people fear such things. You know better. What will all these people think of you?

"In front of all these people?" I laughed a little, "These strangers?"

"There is only One. There are no strangers here." She spoke with authority. "Now, tell me your thoughts about fear."

I started blurting out a tangle of stuff that caused my heart to race even as my mind rejected it. I ended by saying I felt I was on a threshold of something, but if I stepped over, everything I had believed and accomplished all my life would be shown to be an illusion and I would lose myself. There would be nothing. I knew I was sounding crazy, hysterical. I felt three years old and about two inches tall.

"That's right," Byron responded. She assured me that yes, this would be the end of the world as I experience it. Her eyes blazed. Clean. A pure light. Indescribable. A combination of love and white heat that evaporates impurities. I no longer remember the continuity of what she said. When I try to repeat the words, they sound bland compared to the way they felt when she directed them to me.

"That's right," she said, "all the beliefs that you've constructed to protect yourself throughout your whole life are not needed, unnecessary. You are afraid because you think you are a body. You think you are a body, and you are afraid of death - afraid of nothing, only illusion, belief systems. There is no death. You are using you mind to scare yourself. To shame yourself. You cannot lose the ones you love. It is impossible. You are the one you lost. Others don't belong to you. But you obliterate them in your mind. You are the one who says they die. You are experiencing your own death through the thought. Your fears turn into realities, you create them, you materialize them. Unlearn those beliefs. Do you understand?"

"Who are you?" I asked. Her words sounded like a combination of New Age Jargon and esoteric wisdom. But my ming and its critical functioning felt bypassed. I believed her. Tears ran down my face, and I didn't bother with them. I'd never met a human being like this woman. In a flicker of memory I thought of those disciples of Jesus who came to him in wonder, asking the same question, and he simply said, "Come and See."

"Who do you think I am?" Byron Katie smiled at me. Jesus said that, too, didn't he? "Who do the people say that I am?"

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Moving the Word
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 29, 2009 04:59AM

The Anticult
It might also be a good idea to make another BK sub-thread here, maybe, with copies of the first-hand reports from the BK seminars, with minimal commentary, and info about certain topics put together in a logical fashion? but that might make it more confusing...

There is so much information in the thread, it is overwhelming.
That is a great idea. I'll start a thread for that.

Options: ReplyQuote
Byron Katie (the Work) Lauren Gard, deceit in marketing - PR
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 29, 2009 07:01AM

There is so much information in the thread, it is overwhelming.
That is a great idea. I'll start a thread for that.[/quote]
...might have to ask the moderator at times to monitor that thread, as the BK propagandists are getting more organized, and could try to disrupt it?

For example, BKI is doing more PR currently. This one looks like a Josh Baran PR job.

They obviously went and "aquired" some "freelance writer" named Lauren Gard to write an advert-article for them. This is common method these days. A PR company gets a writer to write the Story they want written, then they give the "article" to the media company, or even pay the media company to run it. The media company loves it, as they get free content, and even get paid good money to run the content.
They put it in the Girlfriend Getaways section, which is obviously the paid advertising fake-article section for travel companies to target women.
Fast(ing) friends meet for detoxifying retreat By Lauren Gard []

This one is trying to undersell the BK seminar as a "girls weekend". Its somewhat akin as saying lets spend a Girls Weekend in Mexico smoking crack and doing hard drugs. Its almost unbelievable that "writers" would pimp themselves out like this, to make a few bucks. Maybe Lauren Gard should spend 5 minutes researching her "story" before writing it? Oh yeah that's right, if she did, she would not get paid. Notice the details about flight costs, and Googling Katie, etc, name-dropping Oprah's name, etc. All planned out, and written out very carefully.
Again, sounds like Josh Baran is working some overtime.

The only correct point in the entire piece of drivel, is Lauren Gard admits that the BK people forbid you to drink what you want to drink. The BK "Staff" block caffeine consumption without ANY notice, which will cause severe heachaches in many people, which is intentional, of course.
So it ain't "voluntary", none of it is. If you want to stay in the seminar, they force you to do what they tell you to do. It starts small, and builds from there.
Like when Werner Erhard EST wouldn't let you take a pee, "voluntarily", same thing.
That is how you do it, start small, and build up.

Notice the PR angle. They are trying to make it sound like some casual $100 a day cleansing retreat for ladies who lunch, where you take time to go shopping, and skip-out early to go to Starbucks, get your nails done, etc.

COMPLETE UTTER BLATANT BALD-FACED conscious deception. They want to try to snare some ladies who have some serious cash floating around, to come in (they think) for a casual cleanse, maybe lose some weight, go shopping, and other pop-psychology platitudes.
Then these innocent folks arrive at the Byron Katie LGAT seminar, and get hammered between the eyes, with over 100 of the most powerful mass-persuasion techniques on the face of the earth, capable of literally carving a person's psyche into pieces in hours. Its Soul Surgery alright.

This is a Scientology level of deception. The people behind this article, know its complete bullshit, but want to lure people in, tricking them into thinking its some casual thing.
One of the most important criteria in determining if something is cult-like, is the use of DECEPTION in recruiting and luring people in.
They are now getting systematic at it.

Meanwhile, as just linked to, this recent review of the Byron Katie School [] the reality of the Byron Katie LGAT seminar is starting to come out in more detail. This new report, shows it is actually much worse than has even been stated so far. The main clarification to make so far, is not that people are being encourage to disintegrate, its being engineered into them, by the specific techniques described here. Its not happening by itself. People are being systematically broken-down using all of the common, and uncommon LGAT techniques on the market today.
This LGAT School is not the end of the process, its just the beginning. Those who get broken down, go into the BK "aftercare" program, where they take it even further, and move them into the 4-6 year seminar system, free labor, Turnaround House, and everything else.
There are literally millions and millions of dollars being extracted from this dis-assembly line of human psyches.

Options: ReplyQuote
Byron Katie, Michael Katz, San Francisco Zen Center, sex
Posted by: The Anticult ()
Date: March 29, 2009 08:09AM

The San Francisco Zen Center from Suzuki Roshi, then Richard Baker, was also involved in serious money and sex scandals.
Shoes Outside the Door: Desire, Devotion, and Excess at San Francisco Zen Center by Michael Downing

What were the connections between Michael Katz, and Richard Baker?

Holy Shit Batman! Mchael Katz edited that Lindisfarne book, and Richard Baker-roshi is in it!!
Richard Baker-Roshi is still out there. What other connections are there?
- Zentatsu Richard Baker, Zentatsu Baker-roshi, Crestone Mountain Zen Center,
- Abbot and Head Teacher Zentatsu Richard Baker-roshi, Dharma Heir of Shunryu Suzuki-roshi.

Earth's Answer: Explorations Of Planetary Culture At The Lindisfarne Conferences (Paperback)
by Michael Katz (Editor), William P. Marsh (Editor), Gail Gordon Thompson (Editor), Richard Baker-roshi (Contributor),

Jay Cruise

Suzuki Roshi, Michael Katz's long-time zen master, opened the San Francisco Zen Center in the early-60s which has close ties to Esalen. From the book Religon and Psychology:

"Eastern adepts like D.T Susuki (Rinzai) and Shunryu Suzuki Roshi (Soto) gathered around them notable groups of Western followers (eg Allen Ginsberg, Jack Kerouac, Gary Snider, Alan Watts, Richard Baker, Timothy Leary, Aldous Huxley). The latter, in turn, helped establish a series of centers and retreats (eg., the San Francisco Zen Center; Esalen)."

Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/29/2009 08:16AM by The Anticult.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: March 29, 2009 11:24AM

Oh, thank you, Anticult. Now I think I understand what you were saying :-)

And that understanding leads me back to a point you made on March 3, 2009, in the Guru 1.0-5.0 post. (At this rate, this is going to be the first thread in history with footnotes and bibliography)

I've had a huge insight about my own situation because of the last couple of days' posts, so this post might be scattered. I'm still picking myself up off the floor long enough to type, and I feel like I need to just get this out.

Little has been written about Guru 5.0 (These gurus seem to mutate like the Ebola virus.) They're a contemporary phenomenon, so writing would mean reporting, and yes, "blind monkeys with typewriters" about describes the situation.

The bulk of the books I've read deal with Gurus 2.0-4.0. Looking back on them, I certainly think some authors omitted discussions of hypnosis for lack of training, or for the desire to focus on other things and to avoid mushy words like "hypnosis." But Katie is among the first to use the techniques we've been learning about on this thread with worldwide success, and I now believe that authors didn't mention these methods because gurus didn't use them to the degree that they do now.

To employ TAC's new taxonomy of gurus (genus Exploitus Betrayus), I was exploited by a version 4.5 guru, and to help me recover I went to books whose subject was gurus 2.0-4.0. I skipped 1.0-- those books didn't resonate, and I didn't focus much on 3.0--not relevant.

But version 4.0. Ah. Or should I say, Om.

(Although it wasn't that kind of cult. Chanting would have been too weird.)

Byron Katie is very similar to the woman who "led" the psychotherapy cult I was involved with. For now, let's call her Iedna. I figured that out a few years ago, when I briefly met Katie, and I kind of dropped it there. A dispiritingly high percentage (but fortunately a low number) of the people I know who have left that psychotherapy cult are interested in/involved with Katie, but I'm no longer in touch with them, so I have no dirt. But I had wondered. It's been festering in the back of my mind. And now 95% of it makes sense.

When I read Anticult's March 3 post, I immediately placed Iedna between 4.0 and 5.0. I know --now-- if only I'd known then-- that Iedna worked with top NLP people, Milton Erickson, took est (and probably socialized with Erhard) and was very involved in the whole 60s-70s Esalen scene. On top of that, she had a very extensive professional psychological background THAT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT TO DISAPPEAR.

I even had the thought that Iedna almost seemed a transitional figure; that dealing with her was like dealing with Katie 10 or 15 years ago. It all came together for me with that March 3 post. Iedna is very slick, but she's no Byron Katie. Iedna is IRC; Katie is Gchat.

Iedna's no Byron Katie in part because she's saddled with credentials. No one could ever say Iedna never reads books-- she's written them. Plus, it's hard to imagine her subsuming her intimidating brilliance to any goal, even the goal of fawning followers, international influence, and a life of unmerited ease and opulence. Although I doubt it occurred to her that hiding her intellect was the way to go. Katie (possibly in league with several over-credentialed wannabe gurus) had that demonic flash of insight.

I have to say here that Iedna voluntarily GAVE UP her hard-won MFCC/MFT licenses decades ago. Most people think that she committed some indiscretion, was forced to give the licences up, and then just lied, but as of today I think she was attempting to move in the Katie direction. This thought chills me to my core.

Also, and importantly, Iedna did not want to deal with really broken, really crazy people. The major-personality-disordered people that the latest insider report tells us Katie prizes did not interest Iedna. Possibly she saw them as too much trouble for not enough return? Possibly the people who prey upon those kinds of people are just a different breed of sociopath (corboy? comments) Possibly she hadn't completely figured out that rich people will pay big money to get their psychotic-yet-moneyed relatives out of the family's hair? I don't know. But she definitely didn't want them.

Furthermore, Iedna hadn't totally worked out her techniques before she plunged off that guru deep-end where the salvageable come to their senses and flee, the true believers stay, and no newcomers enlist. (I was gone by then, but I heard.) No doubt about it, though, she's a transitional figure from 4.0 to 5.0. I would not be at all surprised if Katie went to one or more Iedna's events. Off the top of my head, I can think of 3 people they know in common; there might be dozens. And the timeframe works.

I need to think this over some more, but I think the fact that Katie is a woman is very important and requires more elucidation.(Anticult, when I came to post this I saw your latest post.) So I'll throw out some thoughts. A male guru simply could not take this approach with Katie's particular audience (really any audience) and succeed; for openers, the whole "honey, darling, sweetheart" thing would fall flatter than a cockroach under a steamroller.

Speaking for myself, I do not believe (and no one who knows me believes) that I could have been deceived by a man running the scams Iedna ran. I wasn't susceptible to a male guru, perhaps because I know I need have my radars up and bullshit detectors on around men who are on-the-make in some way. I believed that men are more likely to be dangerous to people like me (women) than are other women: men are bigger than me, more prone to violence, exploitation, and criminality, and they could hurt me or rape me or just violate me in some terrible way. I had a screen or a defense or something that functioned with men and didn't then function with women (lesson learned the very hard way) and Iedna was able to exploit that vulnerability in a way no man ever could have. (In case it's relevant, I'm heterosexual.) I think Katie exploits the same vulnerability, though I don't yet understand how. I find that hateful.

I think everything Anticult has been saying about NLP, hypnosis and especially the combining of techniques, the running of 50 techniques at once, is very important. Iedna used hypnosis and NLP, especially the stories and the rapport building.

I think the predation of the extremely wounded, and maybe especially extremely wounded female survivors of sexual abuse, is important.

I think the idiot-savant -I'm- just- an- average- gal -who- woke-up -- you can too! thing is important, maybe the second biggest innovation of all. All of the Western gurus I can think of have some sort of "expert" thing going. L.Ron Hubbard barely made it through a couple of college courses and yet claimed to be a nuclear physicist. If only he'd known the trend would go toward claiming to be someone who can't even spell nucular physicsist.

I think the whole "Hitler killed your baby and that's God" is important. Iedna became very big on that. I left for good when Iedna stated that the Holocaust was meant to teach Jews not to be such weak cowards. It was horrifying. But everyone else, including many Jews, nodded their heads and stayed.

Most of all, I fear the thorough-going concealment guru 5.0 has achieved. Maybe that's the masterstroke. I don't know. The guy in the hoodie with his pants around his knees rarely gets beyond knocking off liquor stores for a few hundred bucks; no one's going to gift-wrap plane tickets, credit cards, the family jewels and hand them over to him. The cheesy infomercials don't separate us from too much of our cash (ShamWow, anyone? Some brand manager needs to tell that guy not to use the word "sham" in the actual name of the product. For criminy's sake.)

But the friendly, attractive, Eileen Fisher-clad woman with the shining eyes who loves us exactly the way we are? We open our hearts and our wallets to her. Willingly. The guy in the hoodie can't even begin to dream of making a Katie-size haul. Besides, it'll be years before he's out on parole; anyone he attacks will immediately feel like a crime victim and yell for the cops. Why does it feel different when gurus rob us? Because they tell us there are no victims? Can that be right?

I dread thinking the damage Iedna could have done if she'd had Katie's skills; the damage she actually did is horrific enough. But the comments on this thread are very much on the right track. Katie represents a new, more virulent strain of guru; a super-guru, a weaponized guru. A disruptive innovation in exploitation. And I spent years up close and personal with one of the prototypes. I feel stunned and sad and scared.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Jay Cruise ()
Date: March 29, 2009 11:34AM

Some quotes from Katie

"Thoughts are a good thing until they're not." Byron Katie interview.

"Losing the Moon" is gibberish:

"To go to the "No thing - I'm God - I'm a song, but I won't come out and sing," is like halfway. The No One and No Thing - ach! Re-enter! You may as well. It's what you're doing, pretending not to. You know these spiritual people, the ones that say "There's no One and Nothing" - it's a great concept. I really understand the teachers who are silent, who stay silent. It's noble. And thus one speaks. It had to go all the way. It had to take all the risks. It would not let any concept of "I should reach it all" stop it. The inquiry won't have it. It says you and me, and that's where the scam began. It came out as a liar - for love. I will do anything for love - say anything, do anything. It's what it is. It would die for it. And that's over and over and over. It would sell its peace. It has no caring for itself. It will join. It will join because it is it already. It dies for itself. Lives for itself."

"There's not ever anything legitimate going on inside me."

"You can say that everything here is a lie. But only everything."

"You have a built-in mechanism that let's you know when you are not playing with a full deck. It's called feeling."

"I don't believe anything about you. That's love."

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by: Christa ()
Date: March 29, 2009 04:34PM

I don't believe this has been posted--


Footage from the School. IMPORTANT TO WATCH the last 40 seconds.

Options: ReplyQuote
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) YouTube of Los Angeles
Posted by: helpme2times ()
Date: March 29, 2009 09:13PM

I don't believe this has been posted--


Footage from the School. IMPORTANT TO WATCH the last 40 seconds.
Actually I think this was posted a while back.

But it's so blatantly culty and creepy, I'm glad it's being shared again. Thanks!

Options: ReplyQuote

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.
This forum powered by Phorum.