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JoshQuote
Do you still consider yourself a Christian Apostate?
In the big scheme of thing Josh, does it really matter what an individual "calls" themselves? What difference does a badge make in the end, except to make fellow badge wearers feel more at ease with each other. I think that such things are inconsequential, and as a result I will answer your question in a similar fashion to Gandhi. "I am a Hindu, a Christian, a Muslim, an atheist, a Jew, a Siekh..." Being part of something invisible Josh, one does not look for walls of division, only actions of unification.
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How do you guys define Christianity, and what does a group have to do to qualify as being Christian?
First I would say that Jesus was NOT a "Christian". That being said, it would logically follow that many non Christians are doing good, good enough to bypass "pharisees" on a road leading to life. So if Jesus was NOT a Christian I would encourage people to not look for ways to "qualify" on how to be a "Christian". I am more concerned on whether such groups are doing right by each other and those outside their ranks than whether they qualify as "Christian". If I determine that such groups are not doing right, then I would say that they are unhealthy and as such generate more discord and harm than good. I consider the group which calls itself "Jesus Christians" to be a group which is currently generating more discord and harm than good.
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Malcom
I imagine that the Kingdom of Heaven will be as close as possible to a "pluralistic, inclusive democracy"
If it's not too much of a departure from the subject of this thread. How did you come to that understanding? I admit I like the sound of your kingdom of heaven better, but all I've found in scripture describing the government would be "the Messiah ruling with an iron scepter". I can't be sure exactly what is meant by "ruling with an iron scepter", but it's never sounded very egalitarian to me.
Hmm, does it matter if something is not egalitarian to you Josh? Are you a person who believes in a principle of equality amongst humanity? If so how do you respond to the above scripture you quoted. Is the above scripture enough to cause you to turn away from a principle of equality amongst humanity?
In answer to how I came to this understanding... by empathy. Imagine being on the receiving end of an "iron scepter" for a moment. In order to weld and "iron scepter" one has to either dehumanise the person subjected to it, or to use "end justifies the means" approaches.
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I have learned to be slow to judgement, especially about people who I only know via an internet forum. The way you type doesn't sound stupid to me, and as far as I can tell you seem to at least believe what you are saying is true as do the Jesus Christians believe what they're saying is true. I am not judge between you and them and don't care to be involved in the fight you guys have going on since having absolutely no knowlege of the situations being fought over I am in no position to add anything to either side of the argument.
Thank you Josh. I respect what you have said, and am happy to answer your questions.
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The reason for my questions (I probably owe you guys that much) is because it seems strange to me how you guys and the Jesus Christians could come to such a radically different understanding of how their group operates.
In some ways Josh it could be comparable to a family which looks good on the outside, but on the inside a different story is revealed by members of that family. On the outside you may hear words like "autonomous" "Free" "democratic" "equality" describing life in the group but quite a different picture emerges once one is inside the group.
I think the different perspectives result from a definite power imbalance between the one claiming "divine authority" along with those that accept such a claim, and those who do not. If one accepts that exercising power from a "top down" position is the best way to go then that belief will naturally generate a different perspective to those who favour a "bottom up" position and way of operating. Those coming from a "top down" position will deem their actions benevolent and for the "good" of those beneath, while those beneath will view such actions as paternalistic and disconnected from reality. Those coming from a "bottom up" position may see their actions as being based upon concepts of equality, while the one in a position of power deem such actions as being the work of "rebels". It is a common political pattern which repeats itself endlessly. For myself I operate froma "bottom up" frame of reference and am prepared to be branded rebel as a result.
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From what I can tell the members of the Jesus Christians seem quite happy where they're at and quite excited about the work they're doing.
Being happy and excited about what one does is all well and good, but it is possible to be happy and excited and in error.
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I have met a few of them in person and they didn't seem crazy or brainwashed or anything. They weren't at all pushy with their beliefs which surprised me since I think my own mainline Christian denomination is more pushy to have people join than they were.
I would think if the group is on the street 6 days a week pushing their beliefs by distributing literature they would not find a need to be so pushy after hours.
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I want to understand why the Jesus Christians seem to work well for some people but not for others. I'm already speaking to the people that the Jesus Christians are working well for, so I decided to hear from the others.
As mentioned earlier Josh, I think it comes down to what a person is prepared to accept in this life. If a person has lower standards of equality and sees that it is justifiable to use "top down" "end justifies the means" approaches towards others then such people will see it as working well for them. Those who do not will not.
Please feel free to ask more questions Josh. It is good to have a healthy discussion about these matters.