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Fran
When I spoke of being present with the 19 year old, I was talking about the case when we went to the police station in the U.K. and his mother was arrested for assaulting him and later for biting one of the police officers
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muppet
Fran I have checked the details of this case and you are sensationalising events and telling outright lies.
The only sensationalism in this thread has come from you. I have not told outright lies. I was an eye witness to what happened that night, so I am basing my statements on facts. Furthermore, the rest of my information comes from the woman in question herself, as she later stayed with us in our flat in Australia and told us the story herself. You are most likely basing your facts on newspaper cut outs, hence your distorted version of reality.
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Muppet
The mother in question was arrested but it did not involve an assault of any kind either.
If she was not arrested for assault, then what for, muppet? I was there when she physically grabbed Kyri and tried to stop him from leaving the police station. The police gave her three warnings and ordered her to let go of Kyri. When she refused she was handcuffed and taken into the police station.
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muppet
No police officer was bitten.
This is the hardest part for me to verify, because I am only going on what the woman herself told us later. She said that after they had put her in the cell she was very emotional and agitated. She said they were about to release her that night, but when they opened the cell she started abusing the police officers and tried to bite one of them (yes, perhaps she didn't actually bite him). Because of that, she was put back in the cell and only released the following morning.
As I said, I only know that particular detail because the woman told us herself about it. Maybe she was lying, or maybe the 'source' of your information is inaccurate.
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muppet
It appears that the woman was arrested after allegations were made by you or your group members.
I guess this makes it clear that you are not going on any facts, but just conjuring up your own version of the story based on how things "appear" to you.
No allegations were ever made by us against the woman. Quite the opposite is true. Although she knew her son was with us, she reported him missing to the police and told them that we had taken him against his will and brainwashed him. Kyri went to a police station to report that he was not in fact missing, but he was told to go to a specific station. Upon arriving at the station, his mother, cousin, and friends were waiting for him and immediately started their campaign of hate and fear. The first words that Kyri's mother ever said to me after I said hello were "you are Satan incarnate".
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muppet
Dave's fascination with 'Moses David' is well known as is the fact that Dave kept and treasures a letter he received from David Berg years ago.
Well known by who? You seem to be a thousand times more facinated with the Children of God than Dave McKay does. I hardly hear Dave even mentioning the COG or Berg, and when he does it is usually a criticism of them. As far as this treasured letter you mention, I am inclined to believe it is either a figment of your imagination or at the very least not as significant as you want us to believe. In fact, I don't know that I can trust anything you say, seeing as you continually base statements on hearsay whilst denying the facts.
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muppet
I think it is clear that your leader modelled his group on the children of god and modelled. His leadership style is also modelled on that of Berg.
Yes, you think many things. But most of what you think, as clearly seen in this thread, is untrue. Our group bares little resemblence to the way the COG operate. And Dave McKay's style of leadership is very different from Berg's as I have stated before.
The thing is, it is very important to you to compare us to the Children of God, because then you can imply that the same immorality and degeneration of the COG exists in the Jesus Christians. You want to damn us in any way you can, and since you have a hard time damning our teachings, you resort to comparing us to the COG on the basis that Dave spent three months as an associate member 30 years ago!
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muppet
Everyone knows about his objection to the sexual practises of the CoG but his alternative (celibacy) is equally manipulative.
I find this statement very comical. For one thing, as you must know, celibacy is encouraged in the Bible by both Jesus and Paul. Secondly we do not forbid marriage (in fact, I am married myself).
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muppet
Members of your group are disuaded from having children.
Just as we do not forbid marriage, neither do we forbid children. However, having children bring a lot of new challenges and responsibilities. It is up to each matrimony to decide whether they want to take on those challenges and responsibilities. Due to the nature of our lifestyle, most of us are not ready to have children yet. Is that so bad?
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muppet
How many have had operations to prevent procreation?
And how many times do you use a condom when having sex? Such questions are personal matters and not appropriate for public forums.
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rrmoderator
Can you name three things Dave has done or said as the leader of "Jesus Christians" that you consider wrong?
I asked you to clearly show an example the group following Dave on something that contradicted the teachings of Jesus. You have produced not such evidence. Instead, you deflect the question by putting it back to me.
I can name more than three things I have disagreed with Dave on. But since my disagreements were with Dave, I talked with Dave about them. Why should I air my disagreements publicly? Are you going to resolve them for me? I don't think so.
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rrmoderator
How is Dave accountable to the group members?
The same way we are all accountable. If anyone has a disagreement, they can talk with him privately about it. If he doesn't accept it, they bring in two or three witnesses to discuss it. if he doesn't listen to them, we call in the whole community. And if he won't listen to the whole group, he will be asked to leave. This is based on Matthew 18:15-18
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rrmoderator
Is there a democratically elected board or some type of oversight he submits to?
It seems I have to continually remind you that we are only 25 members world wide. We are all the "elected board", if you like.
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rrmoderator
The kidney donations demonstrate the degree of compliance and submission within the group.
No, they demonstrate Christians who are willing to donate organs to save other people's lives.
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rrmoderator
The complaints and concerns about "Jesus Christians" is not simply about Dave's historical ties to "Children of God," as the news articles about the group reflect.
Since the basis of the earlier sensationalist hate campaigns against us were based on our correlation with the Children of God, it doesn't say much for the articles. Every subsequent article was based on the previous one, so that they are all based mostly on exaggerations and outright lies. And I doubt, by the way you guys are carrying on, that that is going to change.