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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: September 12, 2006 02:32AM


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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: September 12, 2006 02:47AM

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zeuszor
Are you saying that McKay believes and teaches that he is one of the Two Witnesses?


No. That is a quote from a review. Click on the link. Read the books. Decide for yourself.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Xenophone ()
Date: September 12, 2006 05:08AM

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zeuszor
I stand exhorted, brother. You gotta understand, for one thing I got out of the Army about nine months ago, with alomost a year in Iraq, and shortly after release found myself in cult not so dissimilar to the JCs. Look at the Trinity Foundation of Dallas TX board. You are right: I do have a lot of anger and other emotional issues that I am working through right now, but if I didn't want to get better I wouldn't be putting myself out here like this. I am asking for your help, brother, because I hardly want to alienate anybody. In that case, I'd be just like a cult of one, you know? Just like the JCs. So, yeah, I DO hate religion and all the hypocrisy and BS that is part of that territory, and have stepped on a land mine or two (so to speak), but have none in my heart for any individuals, at least as far as I can tell in myslef now. But I love Jesus and I love people. Please, I am asking for the support of the online community here. I want to get better. :cry:

Yeah, I understand that you are emotionally in a bad place, but why is it that you go from cult to cult? First it was the Hare Krishna. You were with them for a number of years then you finally realised they were bad news and left them. Then the Jesus Christians, which you didn't even joined, but more or less toyed around with the idea. Then you joined the Army, which you now call a cult and were discharged for having a personality disorder. From there you joined the Trinity Foundation which you are now condeming as a cult. Do you see a pattern here? For some reason you are choosing these groups, and I think you should ask yourself why. Perhaps you join these groups knowing that they are easy targets for you to critisize them later while at the same time getting sympathy from others for having been "victimized" by them.

The main thing is that you have been diagnosed with a mental disorder and you need to get help for it, and not make light of it. Forgive me if I'm wrong in assuming that you haven't seriously tried to get your personality disorder straightened out. You should be much better euquipped to serve God if you do.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: September 12, 2006 05:34AM

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Xenophone
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apostate
Hey, Apostate, go back a couple of posts. I already answered the question as to what kinds of ariticles are in the restricted access, so your scare mongering is a bit flacid. There is no Anointed Apostle aricle. BTW Like you I am an ex JC.

No scare mongering happening here Xenophone, so no need to be so defensive of a group that is obviously a cult. As I cannot upload the article in question I will cut and paste it below as evidence, so please excuse its length, but you know Dave... he loves to talk, especially when it is about himself. It is entitled "Divine Authority". I have highlighted the relevant parts to make it easier to see.

Article begins:
___________________________________________________________

"Divine Authority
More needs to be said about the actual gift of leadership. I have tried all my life to convince myself that anyone can be a leader; but no amount of effort on my part has been able to get some people to see past following whoever happens to be shouting the loudest at the time, regardless of whether they are right or wrong in what they are shouting. We can't put all the blame onto bad leaders if people are silly enough to follow them unthinkingly; but then, if the issues are complex and the bad leader is clever with words, I'm not so sure that we can put all the blame on the followers either.
The ability to lead is a gift, that can be used for good or evil. But you need to learn how to choose good leaders over bad ones.
I can't help but feel that if I had better access to some people, I could get them to follow me in preference to their churchy leaders. And I feel that if I could them to follow me, I could eventually get them to follow Jesus. BUT MAYBE NOT. Maybe some people are just attracted to rebellious leaders, and it was just a matter of time before they would find one to follow. At any rate, it is important to realise that, merely being a gifted leader does not guarantee that a person will not abuse that gift.
There is something else that I'll call divine authority, which is something quite apart from gifted leadership. Every leader will claim some kind of authority, which seems to be almost synonymous with being a leader. But DIVINE authority is different, and it can only come from God.
It is something like the difference between pride and confidence. People often confuse them, but one is the counterfeit of the other. A confident person has the respect of others; but is actually humble enough to accept criticism. A proud person tries to demand that people respect him or her, and a proud person hides from criticism.
Rebel leaders are like this. They hide from criticism and teach their subjects not to criticise them. But having such power does not say anything about whether they have God's authority to be leading. In fact, as a general rule, the worst leaders are usually the ones whose so-called authority needs to be most protected from ciriticism. And the best leaders are the ones who are most tolerant of criticism.
I have always tolerated a great deal of criticism, even criticism from rebels, ex-members, and outright enemies. But don't forget that I am the captain of this ship. I know where we are going, because I am getting my orders from God. I don't have to preach long sermons on it or abuse people in order to make it clear. Nor do I need to hide from confrontations with critics. For the most part, [b:ba226ae787][i:ba226ae787]my record will speak for itself, both in showing my authority from God[/i:ba226ae787][/b:ba226ae787] and in showing my ability to take criticism. But the bottom line is that I am here because God has given me a job to do, and I must do it. I'm not here to promote myself in opposition to someone else. I'm here to get God's work done.
I would like to think that each one of you could leave this community and start another community all over again, as Cherry and I did from scratch; but unless you did so under clear direction from God, you would almost certainly be led astray if you tried, just as has happened with others who have left our community. The problem is not that they lacked ability, but only that they lacked authority from God to do such a thing. "Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that do it." And being clever with words and having a stack of my teachings won't amount to anything if you aren't being led by God. For the time being, [b:ba226ae787][i:ba226ae787]God has put me here to lead you, and you are not free to just declare yourself to be the leader and automatically expect God to honour your decree.[/i:ba226ae787] [/b:ba226ae787]
I rebelled against the "covering" doctrine in the churches, because they were saying that, right or wrong, people have to follow church leadership. No way! If the leaders are wrong, you must not follow them; but if they are right, it's a different story. [b:ba226ae787][i:ba226ae787]If you rebel against a "right" leader, you rebel against God, and he will lift his anointing and protection from you. The reason you would fail would not be because I'm so special, but just that any kingdom divided against itself will not stand. God is not stupid. If he has appointed me to lead this work, then he will expect others [in this movement] to work in submission to me.[/i:ba226ae787] [/b:ba226ae787]
He may have other leaders out there (whom we haven't met yet) who also have his authority; but he is not going to anoint two leaders in opposition to one another. Even completely separate ministries must be willing to submit to one another in love.
[b:ba226ae787][i:ba226ae787]God has at this time and in this corner of the world, anointed me as his apostle[/i:ba226ae787][/b:ba226ae787]. As long as I am doing my job right, he is not going to anoint someone else to rebel against me. If I get away from God, then I will lose my anointing and God will give authority to someone else to take my place. But beware! Just because you get a chance to start a rebellion, doesn't mean that you have authority nor that I have lost mine; and if I catch you rebelling, I will wield the rod of correction in obedience to God, since it is really God that you are rebelling against when you do that.
For many years in the churches, I listened to sermons from desperate men trying to keep their troops together. They preached submission to themselves in sermon after sermon, week after week. Because of that I more or less vowed not to preach such sermons in my community, and I urged followers to think for themselves and not to be afraid to question me. But over and over the very people I have taught this to have turned on me when they got out of the spirit, and argued that I was power hungry and cruel, just as they have argued with God.
All that was bad in all those preachers has come out through the lips of those who have rebelled against my leadership. They have become obsessed with protecting themselves from criticism, and refusing to talk to anyone who criticises them. Now I see that, in over-reacting to a false teaching, I had missed an element of truth in it as well. People are given a choice between leaders who welcome criticism and ones who outlaw it, and they end up attacking the ones who tolerate criticism, because they know we will be tolerant of their outbursts.
I now see that, in an effort to do what is right myself (i.e. to accept criticism), I failed to teach respect for divine authority. So gutless followers who are too frightened to stand up to really dictatorial leaders, will turn on the gracious one because they know that he will take it. And if he doesn't, then they'll quote his own teachings back to him in an effort to get him to justify their actions. It is time to put an end to this misconception. Just because I am willing to listen to criticism (and my critics are not) does not mean that the critics are right. In fact, most of them are eternally wrong.
What I am saying does not exempt you from a need to develop a strong conscience and personal accountability before God. These things are especially important in the event that I do go off the rails. But I am ruling out everyone running off with their own opinions and saying that they have as much right as me to say what is right. The plain truth is that you don't. You don't all have the "divine authority" which God has, at least for the present, given to me, to lead this movement.
What I am saying here also does not make me infallible, nor does it exempt me from criticism, as I've already said above. But it does say that if you are going to take a grievance against me, you had better be sure before you start that you are right, or you may be dealt with harshly for taking a false or frivolous grievance. We need to put an end to all those vexatious litigations that I used to almost encourage, in order to make it clear that I wasn't trying to railroad people on issues.
I have authority from God, to lead this movement back to obedience to Jesus, and back to living by faith, in preparation for the return of Christ. There is a difference between divine authority and the political manoeuvrings of those who seek power for selfish purposes. The political empire builders are like blithering idiots when confronted with someone who is sincerely looking for the truth. And when they're not spreading hatred against me personally, they are running in fear that they will have to answer for something that they have said. The truth is that they are running from God, to whom they will have to answer for their actions, no matter how much they run from me.
I want to especially thank those of you who had the courage to act on authority from God in confronting rebellion even when I was guilty of trying to be soft on it (in order to make myself look like a "nice guy"). Confronting rebellion of your own initiative is the kind of action that makes you true leaders. Mind you, it doesn't guarantee that you too might not be lifted up with pride one day; and that's why God has put me over you for the time being. But it does show that you have a certain amount of divine authority already, which will just simply make way for itself if you continue to sincerely and humbly follow God."

_____________________________________________________________

Article ends.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: September 12, 2006 05:45AM

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zeuszor
Xenophone, I recieve with gladness your exhortation and thank God for it. I have been meditating and praying on this and it occured to me: first off , OK, I'm not Jesus, I'm not John the Baptist, nor am I Paul or some prophet. I am Jesus' disciple, as are you. Jesus is our example in matters of faith, dependance on God, as well as in the area of behavior and conduct (1 Peter 2:21). Now, all of the above, Jesus, John the Baptist, Paul, the Prophets, all at some point or another looked around at what was going on and got pretty irate and started engaging in name-calling! John the Baptist called the Pharisees a "brood of vipers". (Mat. 3:7, Luke 3:7) as did Jesus Himself (Mt 12:34, Mt. 23:33). Jesus saw what was going on in theTemple and started shasing people around with a whip (John 2:15). And let's not forget he "woe unto you" passages in Mt. 23. Paul wasn't afraid to call a false teacher a false teacher, nor a false prophet a false prophet, either. (2 Peter 2:1-3). Not to mention some of the OT Prophet's tirades warning Isreal. And these are just examples I remember just off the top of my head. Paul constantly exhorted the churches to study things out and to speak the truth boldly, but in love (2 Timothy 2:15). So what is wrong with my calling a spade a spade, or a false teacher a false teacher, or an abusive church a synagogue of Satan, or a cult leader a sick, narcissistic snake? I speak the truth boldly, yes, and if I cross the boundary out of speaking it in love, then I repent of that (1 John 4:20). It seems like we both have some baggage we're both carrying around here, Xenophone. You were a JC for five years you said, right? Sititng uder that twisted, sick Dave McKay guy must have polluted your soul more than you realize. I only knew Ole Anthony for four months and left with a bad taste in MY mouth. So let's be friends, brothers, and learn and grow together. Please, don't write me off. I refuse to bury my head in the sand and repeat over and over, "Judge not!" That's how all these creeps in the Church get away with what they do. It's because bold Christians don't speak up and call it what it is.
I speak in love brother. If I step away from the mercy seat and get carried away by my flesh, then of this I repent. Humbly,
B

Hey zeuszor, relax. no need to bend over backwards repenting here. Time to back yourself. You are saying nothing wrong.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: September 12, 2006 06:08AM

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cultmalleus
zeusor, I can tell you one of the secret teachings is called "Honest to Whom" which is basically a justification for lying to "systemites" who, really, boils down to anyone who is not in their group. Indeed, it is one of the JC's most fundamental teachings that you must learn to lie to protect and defend the group. They start from the idea that Bible smugglers into Communist China may have to lie to cross the border but end up using this to justify widespread and constant lying by the group to outsiders. Group members always "cover" their leadership and pretend that decisions are by consensus when really decisions are made by Dave wearing down opposition by meetings that can go on practically all night long. Dave has frequently embarked on deception and lying to try and make a media controversy, for just one example, witness "Anita" [www.guardian.co.uk]

The "grievance system" is the way to ensure conformity by Dave enlisting everyone else to peer pressure the odd one out and to enforce starvation ("fasting and prayer") as punishment if they do not conform. Unity and loyalty are absolute imperatives. Intelligent and independant thinking members have eventually left in disgust. Of Dave's 4 children, 3 are completely alienated from him and want nothing to do with him.

His fruit is rotten.

Hey hey hey, Cultmaleus, remember those times the community all sat around writing out bogus job applications to get unemployment benefits, and the leaving behind a wad of signed blank cheques for the treasurer to be able to access the funds while some members were out of the country? Yep "Honest to whom" was a beauty. I know for a fact that Dave would deliberately lie as a way of sowing "misinformation" to the "enemy", i.e. those outside his group.

By the way, Cultmalleus, my understanding is that the grievance system that you and I remember has now been replaced by a panel of "leaders" who make judgements.

Good to hear from you again. We could chin wag for ages... and what better location than a cult busters website. Shine a little light on Dave McKay's nonsense, eh.

I think the one child Dave has left behind in the group is more about her trying to please him and win his favour than anything else. It really is quite sad. Dave does not show love or acceptance to his other kids, as his "fatherhood" towards them is dependent upon them being completely subserviant. What a pity. He is missing out on so much.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: apostate ()
Date: September 12, 2006 06:25AM

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Xenophone
Perhaps you join these groups knowing that they are easy targets for you to critisize them later while at the same time getting sympathy from others for having been "victimized" by them.

Wow, what an accusation, are you prepared to concede that perhaps he does not?

Why put the word victimized in quotes? Is it a way of saying he was not a victim of a predatory cult?

Do you think they are a cult in the destructive sense of the meaning? (Just curious)

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: matilda ()
Date: September 12, 2006 06:37AM

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apostate
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Xenophone
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apostate
Hey, Apostate, go back a couple of posts. I already answered the question as to what kinds of ariticles are in the restricted access, so your scare mongering is a bit flacid. There is no Anointed Apostle aricle. BTW Like you I am an ex JC.

No scare mongering happening here Xenophone, so no need to be so defensive of a group that is obviously a cult. As I cannot upload the article in question I will cut and paste it below as evidence, so please excuse its length, but you know Dave... he loves to talk, especially when it is about himself. It is entitled "Divine Authority". I have highlighted the relevant parts to make it easier to see.



Thank you for posting that Apostate. Do you remember one about deception or deceivers and truth ?


Xenophone you must have heard that teaching in the JC's. Were you ever 'hot seated' ?

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: zeuszor ()
Date: September 12, 2006 07:10AM

First of all, I never said that the Army is a cult, I said it is cult-like, and that a lot of the same dynamics of control are in place between that type of training and cult training. If you disagree wit hme, spend a few years in the Army and then try and tell me that. Second, if being treated for major depression and anxiety, if being in a shrink's care, being diagnosed with Obsessive-Complusive Disorder, and taking Prozac is a crime, then I am guilty. You have no idea how stressful and anxiety-producing Iraq was. The Army sucks, man. War sucks. Give me some credit, pardner. If I was that far off my rocker I would have never made it out of Basic, much less into the sandbox. For me to have been labeled as having a "personality disorder" by sadistic and abusive people like that is, like, a compliment. I resisted their sadistic bulls**t and they let me go, Praise God. Third, why the cult-hopping? You know, I was thinking on that today. You tell me, man. I also have a tendancy to drink too much and in the flesh am as cynical and angry at the world as McKay, Anthony, or any of the rest of them. So I ain't trying to play-Mr. Self-Righteous here. If thinking for myself and not just uncritically accepting whatever some joker wants me to swallow makes me somebody with a "personality disorder" then like I said before I'll wear it like the Medal of Honor.

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Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by: Xenophone ()
Date: September 12, 2006 07:15AM

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apostate
No scare mongering happening here Xenophone, so no need to be so defensive of a group that is obviously a cult. As I cannot upload the article in question I will cut and paste it below as evidence, so please excuse its length, but you know Dave... he loves to talk, especially when it is about himself. It is entitled "Divine Authority". I have highlighted the relevant parts to make it easier to see.

Sorry, I should have heard you out. You're right, he did write that he is an anointed apostle. I do remember the article you pasted.

Personally I don't have a problem with the idea of an anointed leader. The problem I have with the JCs was that they had the teaching of Dave's divine authority at the same time they come down hard on other churches for following their leaders.

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