Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: May 23, 2006 02:01AM
See this post on ex family from the groups website
[www.exfamily.org]
The following is an extract from the jesuschristians website by David McKay
'New Kidnapping Scandal,
May 20, 2006
It's like all our past nightmares coming back to haunt us, and yet it seems like this is going to be the pattern more and more in the days ahead.
Yet another enraged parent has decided to accuse us of kidnapping. This time it is Jared and Sheila Johnson, the same people who were responsible for bashing Reinhard so badly on Friday, May 5, that he ended up in hospital with a broken vertebra, many deep cuts to his face, smashed teeth, smashed glasses, and bleeding on the brain. Police who arrived at the scene after Jared and his stepson, John, had finished their handiwork and fled, said that Reinhard's condition was so serious that they would be charging Jared, a local high school teacher, with assault with a deadly weapon. This was in one of the rougher areas of Los Angeles, where violent assaults are almost commonplace.
But now the 'c' word has been mentioned by Sheila, and suddenly everything has changed. Once again (as happened in England and in Kenya) we are being treated as the enemy. The FBI has been called in, we have been told by the police themselves that there is little point in pressing charges against Jared and John, and we ourselves are being accused of kidnapping Joe.
Think about it. Reinhard received the beating when he turned up at the house with Joe, in an effort to meet with the parents. Is this the sort of thing that kidnappers do? Just after the beating, Joe was taken forcibly by his family to a motel where he remained for the rest of that day and the following day before walking out of the motel late on Saturday night and re-joining the community. We felt that he might not be fully convinced of what he wanted to do so we actually SENT HIM HOME early the next week to think things over. He spent a day or two with his family, watching TV, listening to their rants against the Jesus Christians, playing catch in the park, doing chores around the house, and then decided once again to come and ask to be a part of our community.
So why has the FBI been brought in? The 'c' word, remember? His parents said that the Jesus Christians are a cult. The general public hasn't got a clue what the word means... well, let's face it, no one does. It's a word without a meaning, but it conjures up something so despicable that even murder becomes justified by comparison.
The point is, that we are a cult. Or so they say.
So what is going to happen in L.A.? For starters, Joe is on the run. We have sent him off on his own, as we did with Betty in Kenya. If he is finally captured (and make no mistakes, it is really Joe who they want to capture, because they know that we have not kidnapped him) he will be captured on his own. Joe is not a minor. He is a very mature 18-year-old. There will be no legal reason to prevent him from making his own decision about how he wants to live his life.
But don't forget... we're talking about a cult here.
We have talked to parents who have consulted cult busters like Prince Sullivan, the one Jared and Sheilah Johnson contacted in Long Beach, California. They have told us that the cult busters start by asking them if they are willing to invent false charges against their son or daughter in order to get the son or daughter arrested. So far, the only parent to have done that was Betty's father, Fred Njoroge, In Kenya. But then no parent has ever attempted to kill one of our members either... before now.
We have advised Joe NOT to turn himself in to the police. They have no legal right to demand that he "come down to the station" unless they are going to arrest him, and so far they have not admitted that that is their plan. They have spoken to him on the phone and he has assured them that he is not being held against his will. But, like we said, they already know that. '
[www.exfamily.org]
The following is an extract from the jesuschristians website by David McKay
'New Kidnapping Scandal,
May 20, 2006
It's like all our past nightmares coming back to haunt us, and yet it seems like this is going to be the pattern more and more in the days ahead.
Yet another enraged parent has decided to accuse us of kidnapping. This time it is Jared and Sheila Johnson, the same people who were responsible for bashing Reinhard so badly on Friday, May 5, that he ended up in hospital with a broken vertebra, many deep cuts to his face, smashed teeth, smashed glasses, and bleeding on the brain. Police who arrived at the scene after Jared and his stepson, John, had finished their handiwork and fled, said that Reinhard's condition was so serious that they would be charging Jared, a local high school teacher, with assault with a deadly weapon. This was in one of the rougher areas of Los Angeles, where violent assaults are almost commonplace.
But now the 'c' word has been mentioned by Sheila, and suddenly everything has changed. Once again (as happened in England and in Kenya) we are being treated as the enemy. The FBI has been called in, we have been told by the police themselves that there is little point in pressing charges against Jared and John, and we ourselves are being accused of kidnapping Joe.
Think about it. Reinhard received the beating when he turned up at the house with Joe, in an effort to meet with the parents. Is this the sort of thing that kidnappers do? Just after the beating, Joe was taken forcibly by his family to a motel where he remained for the rest of that day and the following day before walking out of the motel late on Saturday night and re-joining the community. We felt that he might not be fully convinced of what he wanted to do so we actually SENT HIM HOME early the next week to think things over. He spent a day or two with his family, watching TV, listening to their rants against the Jesus Christians, playing catch in the park, doing chores around the house, and then decided once again to come and ask to be a part of our community.
So why has the FBI been brought in? The 'c' word, remember? His parents said that the Jesus Christians are a cult. The general public hasn't got a clue what the word means... well, let's face it, no one does. It's a word without a meaning, but it conjures up something so despicable that even murder becomes justified by comparison.
The point is, that we are a cult. Or so they say.
So what is going to happen in L.A.? For starters, Joe is on the run. We have sent him off on his own, as we did with Betty in Kenya. If he is finally captured (and make no mistakes, it is really Joe who they want to capture, because they know that we have not kidnapped him) he will be captured on his own. Joe is not a minor. He is a very mature 18-year-old. There will be no legal reason to prevent him from making his own decision about how he wants to live his life.
But don't forget... we're talking about a cult here.
We have talked to parents who have consulted cult busters like Prince Sullivan, the one Jared and Sheilah Johnson contacted in Long Beach, California. They have told us that the cult busters start by asking them if they are willing to invent false charges against their son or daughter in order to get the son or daughter arrested. So far, the only parent to have done that was Betty's father, Fred Njoroge, In Kenya. But then no parent has ever attempted to kill one of our members either... before now.
We have advised Joe NOT to turn himself in to the police. They have no legal right to demand that he "come down to the station" unless they are going to arrest him, and so far they have not admitted that that is their plan. They have spoken to him on the phone and he has assured them that he is not being held against his will. But, like we said, they already know that. '
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: May 24, 2006 03:48AM
The following is an extract from the jesuschristians website by David McKay and It raises some questions.
'New Kidnapping Scandal,
May 20, 2006
For a definition of the word 'cult' see the main site here at culteducation.com or www.freedomofmind.com. The JC group probably fits the category.[/color:6e45496578]
'New Kidnapping Scandal,
May 20, 2006
Creating nightmares through breaking up families seems to be Dave's speciality. Not very Christ like.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
It's like all our past nightmares coming back to haunt us,
Dave has decided to be more aggressive (if that is possible) in the matter of recruitment.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
and yet it seems like this is going to be the pattern more and more in the days ahead.
Dave does not like parents because they get in his way and perhaps he has not been very successful in that role himself.If they are all accusing him of the same thing, perhaps there is some substance to the allegation?[/color:6e45496578]Quote
Yet another enraged parent has decided to accuse us of kidnapping.
I hope the victim makes a full recovery and no one should condone violence. The leader should also be asking what it is about the way his group operates that elicits such extreme behaviour from relatives. Are there any news reports to substantiate this record of events?[/color:6e45496578]Quote
This time it is Jared and Sheila Johnson, the same people who were responsible for bashing Reinhard so badly on Friday, May 5, that he ended up in hospital with a broken vertebra, many deep cuts to his face, smashed teeth, smashed glasses, and bleeding on the brain. Police who arrived at the scene after Jared and his stepson, John, had finished their handiwork and fled, said that Reinhard's condition was so serious that they would be charging Jared, a local high school teacher, with assault with a deadly weapon. This was in one of the rougher areas of Los Angeles, where violent assaults are almost commonplace.
The police do not generally decide these things on the basis of the word 'cult' and if they have Dave's lawyers will already be on the case. Dave has already admitted that he hid a 17 yr old from her parents in India until she reached the legal age of consent when she was formally recruited. The whole account is recorded in one of Dave's articles called 'The Great Escape' Some people in india considered that to be kidnapping too.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
But now the 'c' word has been mentioned by Sheila, and suddenly everything has changed. Once again (as happened in England and in Kenya) we are being treated as the enemy. The FBI has been called in, we have been told by the police themselves that there is little point in pressing charges against Jared and John, and we ourselves are being accused of kidnapping Joe.
Hang on a minute. This is where the story loses its essence. Dave was concerned about violence yet he sent him home? Or maybe Dave was not worried about violence but needed to get some information. [/color:6e45496578]Quote
We felt that he might not be fully convinced of what he wanted to do so we actually SENT HIM HOME early the next week to think things over. He spent a day or two with his family, watching TV, listening to their rants against the Jesus Christians, playing catch in the park, doing chores around the house, and then decided once again to come and ask to be a part of our community.
.Quote
So why has the FBI been brought in? The 'c' word, remember? His parents said that the Jesus Christians are a cult. The general public hasn't got a clue what the word means... well, let's face it, no one does. It's a word without a meaning, but it conjures up something so despicable that even murder becomes justified by comparison
For a definition of the word 'cult' see the main site here at culteducation.com or www.freedomofmind.com. The JC group probably fits the category.[/color:6e45496578]
A selective quote there, a fruedian slip.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
The point is, that we are a cult.
Dave made similar statements during the Bobby Kelly case, claiming (on air) at one stage that he didnt know where BK was, yet all the time he was with group members in a campsite in Surrey( where the Police finally found him) In other words Dave lied. Interesting that he uses the word captured rather than rescued. Could the lying be habitual? [/color:6e45496578]Quote
So what is going to happen in L.A.? For starters, Joe is on the run. We have sent him off on his own, as we did with Betty in Kenya. If he is finally captured (and make no mistakes, it is really Joe who they want to capture, because they know that we have not kidnapped him) he will be captured on his own. Joe is not a minor. He is a very mature 18-year-old. There will be no legal reason to prevent him from making his own decision about how he wants to live his life.
Why would a parent have to contact a cult buster, and what exactly is a cult buster anyway? Did the Kenyan /other parents tell Dave this or is it what it sounds like; a total fabrication.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
We have talked to parents who have consulted cult busters like Prince Sullivan, the one Jared and Sheilah Johnson contacted in Long Beach, California. They have told us that the cult busters start by asking them if they are willing to invent false charges against their son or daughter in order to get the son or daughter arrested. So far, the only parent to have done that was Betty's father, Fred Njoroge, In Kenya. But then no parent has ever attempted to kill one of our members either... before now.
The Police have a role in protecting society and are not limited to just arresting people. Joe should call in there to find out as much as possible about the groups history before commiting himself.[/color:6e45496578]Quote
We have advised Joe NOT to turn himself in to the police. They have no legal right to demand that he "come down to the station" unless they are going to arrest him, and so far they have not admitted that that is their plan.
Why on earth would any young man be scared to speak to the police in person? Was Betty afraid too? Was Bobby afraid? Is there a pattern emerging here? [/color:6e45496578]Quote
They have spoken to him on the phone and he has assured them that he is not being held against his will.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
sunset
()
Date: May 30, 2006 09:01AM
Link to Makay's open letter to FBI which he has posted on his website.
(Perhaps it is worth remembering that McKay actually believes that his group will rule the world one day soon )
Please be aware that it has been claimed that the website collects the email addresses of those who visit.
[cust.idl.net.au]
Extracts from McKay's letter to FBI agent
'We would be silly to co-operate with them or you either one while this continues. As I said on the phone, we sent Joe, who is legally an adult, away from Reinhard and Jeremy, on his own, so that there would be no doubt about the fact that he was not being held if/when you finally find him. He has, however, had some contact with members of our community since then.
In our first phone conversation, I asked you if Joe could just show up at some police station, letting them know that he is free, and you immediately started back-pedalling. That wasn't good enough. You wanted advance warning about which police station he would turn up at. I had to ask myself why you would not agree to that, and it seemed that what you wanted was a meeting at which you or the parents would be present, so that they could then press charges against him for some false crime. He has, however, now given a report at another police station, sharing face-to-face at length with a couple of police. We have their names and the name of the police station. So you can be sure that if you continue with this charade, and particularly if any arrest is made, then we will be using this letter and that police report if we decide to take action against you for false arrest.'
'Once again, I have to ask you if this sounds like something kidnappers would do? Have you even bothered to question the family about the veracity of these claims? You see, if you haven't bothered to question them, then it becomes obvious that you are not really interested in the facts
'
(Perhaps it is worth remembering that McKay actually believes that his group will rule the world one day soon )
Please be aware that it has been claimed that the website collects the email addresses of those who visit.
[cust.idl.net.au]
Extracts from McKay's letter to FBI agent
'We would be silly to co-operate with them or you either one while this continues. As I said on the phone, we sent Joe, who is legally an adult, away from Reinhard and Jeremy, on his own, so that there would be no doubt about the fact that he was not being held if/when you finally find him. He has, however, had some contact with members of our community since then.
In our first phone conversation, I asked you if Joe could just show up at some police station, letting them know that he is free, and you immediately started back-pedalling. That wasn't good enough. You wanted advance warning about which police station he would turn up at. I had to ask myself why you would not agree to that, and it seemed that what you wanted was a meeting at which you or the parents would be present, so that they could then press charges against him for some false crime. He has, however, now given a report at another police station, sharing face-to-face at length with a couple of police. We have their names and the name of the police station. So you can be sure that if you continue with this charade, and particularly if any arrest is made, then we will be using this letter and that police report if we decide to take action against you for false arrest.'
'Once again, I have to ask you if this sounds like something kidnappers would do? Have you even bothered to question the family about the veracity of these claims? You see, if you haven't bothered to question them, then it becomes obvious that you are not really interested in the facts
'
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: June 03, 2006 09:38AM
Just heard of another case in the UK about 6 years ago where 3 of the JC's convinced a young mother to leave her husband and empty their joint bank account. They took her and her children to a camp site in their van. She wanted to return the husbands share of the money but after consulting with the leader, the group objected very strongly. She eventually grabbed the cash and ran off, never to return to them.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Fran
()
Date: June 17, 2006 10:46PM
Hi everyone. My name is Fran. I am a member of the Jesus Christians. I have visited your site frequently to see things from your perspective. I am not sure how much freedom of speech is allowed in this forum (ie. whether someone like me - a member of the targetted group - is writting). Since some of you have asked people to provide objective evidence, I thought I would contribute some based entirely on the fact that I AM a member, so I know what things go on and what does not go on in the Jesus Christians.
I would like to answer some of the issues raised (although I am a bit rushed at the moment for time, so I won't be able to contribute very much). I hope I can clarify some of the questions that people have, even though I realise that we may not all see eye to eye, and that we may still agree to disagree.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
I often wonder why people do not mention that David was only a member of the Children of God for three months, and that he specifically left when he found out that they were teaching sexual immorality (Flirty Fishing). And yet, those three months seem to continually be used as evidence that David is an inheritly evil man.
I personally have not been a member of that group, but I have done some pretty dumb things when I was young! I suppose people can use that as evidence that I can never be a Christian, but I would seriously question such reasoning.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
I have donated one of my kidneys. It is true that I first found out about the possibility of donating a kidney through Dave (who had watched a movie about it on a plane to Australia). However, I would be stupid to make such a serious decision on the basis of a suggestion from someone else. One of the things that we encourage people to do is to think for themselves, and to be ready to make a stand against anyone if you feel they are leading you to do something that goes against your conscience and what you feel God is personally saying to you.
Just as all you moderators would not donate a kidney simply because Rick Ross told you to do so, neither did I (nor any other JC that I know of) donate because of suggestion from someone else.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
I was not aware that people had to be so formal to be Christians. Neither am I aware that everyone in the world has to produce such public records. There are only around 25 Jesus Christians in the whole world. Such formality seems excessive. Nevertheless we have clear budget records of how every cent is spent between ourselves. We also DO have a democratic process when it comes to how to use funds or what project we are likely to invest time in.
By the way, do you publicly post an account of every cent that you spend? It wouldn't be fair to ask others to do something you don't do yourself.
[b:cfda774099]muppet: [/b:cfda774099]
I would have to disagree with this statement, particularly because it incorrectly generalizes. Most of the JCs, including myself, have a good relationship with our parents. I have spent weeks living at my parents place any they have visited us when they have been near where we are. However, my parents didn't propagate lies about me or the Jesus Christians in the media, nor did they threaten with or use any physical violence. They just accepted that as an adult, I was free to choose what I want, and are confident that if I decide to do something else, then I will. But not all parents have that confidence with their children and so some react irrationally out of fear. Unfortunatley this often creates a self-fullfilling prophecy in that it causes us to hide when we think that someone is going to hurt us.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
I am not sure what experience you have had in living in Developping Countries, but there are some things that are very different. In a predominantly Hindu and somewhat fundamentalist environment, what would you do if a 17 year old told you she was being sexually abused by her relatives and that she wanted to become a Christian? It is precisely because the Jesus Christians are willing to risk their own lives to protect such people (and to allow them to practise their religion freely) that puts them in such situations which present questions as to how best to deal with it. But, ehem, didn't Rick Ross physically and forcefully detain a 19 year old against his will? The Jesus Christians have never held anyone against their will. That's a big difference.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. That's the kind of attitude we have often encoutered with people who like to demonise us. No, Dave didn't need any information. Joe went home because we were not convinced that he had thought through all the issues involved in joining the community. You see, when parents falsely accuse us, print lies about us, and persecute us, it puts the person who is thinking about joining us under a lot of pressure (caused by the parents, media, etc. and not by us!). They often feel like they should joing straight away, whereas we want them to make a rational decision after having considered all the issues.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Dave did not know where Bobby Kelly was. Just because Bobby was with members of the Jesus Christians does not mean that Dave knew his whereabouts. They purposely did not tell him so that he would not know. So, no, Dave did not lie.
[b:cfda774099]muppet[/b:cfda774099]:
As I said before, we have never held anyone against their will. It was Bobby who did not want to be made a ward of state and to be manipulated by his pastor or the "exit-counseller". So, the police, acting on the basis of lies having been told about us, physically removed Bobby from where he wanted to be. I could hardly call that "rescuing".
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
I don't know why parents would have to. It is certainly something what we have not pressured parents to do! However, there are some people who want to manipulate parents for their own agendas. We often call them cult-busters, but they themselves often prefer the term "exit-counsellor". I think Rick Ross has had experience with this, so maybe you can ask him why parents have requested his help to remove their sons and daughters from religious groups they don't agree with.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Joe in fact has spoken several times to police in person. He has gone to different police stations and certified that he has not been kidnapped and has spent hours talking to police officers one on one about his situation. However, his parents, in cooperation with an exit-counsellor want him to go to a SPECIFIC police station, so they can detain him against his will.
The same thing happened to a young man in the U.K. The police called him on our mobile to inform him that he had been reported missing! When he went to a police station to confirm that he was not in fact missing, he was told that he had to go to another specific station. When he turned up at that specific station, he was met there by his mother, cousin and friends who all tried to physically detain him against his will. In the end his mother was arrested and held overnight for her behaviour.
Yes she was. Kenya is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and it is common knowledge that police can be bought for a price. So why shouldn't she be skeptical?
Well, that's all for now. Fran.
I would like to answer some of the issues raised (although I am a bit rushed at the moment for time, so I won't be able to contribute very much). I hope I can clarify some of the questions that people have, even though I realise that we may not all see eye to eye, and that we may still agree to disagree.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Actually the group called "Jesus Christians" appears to be little more than a personality-driven cult led by a former member of the notorious "Children of God" named David McKay.
I often wonder why people do not mention that David was only a member of the Children of God for three months, and that he specifically left when he found out that they were teaching sexual immorality (Flirty Fishing). And yet, those three months seem to continually be used as evidence that David is an inheritly evil man.
I personally have not been a member of that group, but I have done some pretty dumb things when I was young! I suppose people can use that as evidence that I can never be a Christian, but I would seriously question such reasoning.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Many members donated their kidneys to people at the suggestion of their leader McKay.
I have donated one of my kidneys. It is true that I first found out about the possibility of donating a kidney through Dave (who had watched a movie about it on a plane to Australia). However, I would be stupid to make such a serious decision on the basis of a suggestion from someone else. One of the things that we encourage people to do is to think for themselves, and to be ready to make a stand against anyone if you feel they are leading you to do something that goes against your conscience and what you feel God is personally saying to you.
Just as all you moderators would not donate a kidney simply because Rick Ross told you to do so, neither did I (nor any other JC that I know of) donate because of suggestion from someone else.
[b:cfda774099]rrmoderator:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
I am not aware that Jesus Christians has any mandated democratic process through a formal constitution, any government through an elected board, or financial transparency through a published independently audited financial report that details the groups buget and expenses.
I was not aware that people had to be so formal to be Christians. Neither am I aware that everyone in the world has to produce such public records. There are only around 25 Jesus Christians in the whole world. Such formality seems excessive. Nevertheless we have clear budget records of how every cent is spent between ourselves. We also DO have a democratic process when it comes to how to use funds or what project we are likely to invest time in.
By the way, do you publicly post an account of every cent that you spend? It wouldn't be fair to ask others to do something you don't do yourself.
[b:cfda774099]muppet: [/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Dave does not like parents because they get in his way and perhaps he has not been very successful in that role himself.If they are all accusing him of the same thing, perhaps there is some substance to the allegation?
I would have to disagree with this statement, particularly because it incorrectly generalizes. Most of the JCs, including myself, have a good relationship with our parents. I have spent weeks living at my parents place any they have visited us when they have been near where we are. However, my parents didn't propagate lies about me or the Jesus Christians in the media, nor did they threaten with or use any physical violence. They just accepted that as an adult, I was free to choose what I want, and are confident that if I decide to do something else, then I will. But not all parents have that confidence with their children and so some react irrationally out of fear. Unfortunatley this often creates a self-fullfilling prophecy in that it causes us to hide when we think that someone is going to hurt us.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Dave has already admitted that he hid a 17 yr old from her parents in India until she reached the legal age of consent when she was formally recruited. The whole account is recorded in one of Dave's articles called 'The Great Escape' Some people in india considered that to be kidnapping too.
I am not sure what experience you have had in living in Developping Countries, but there are some things that are very different. In a predominantly Hindu and somewhat fundamentalist environment, what would you do if a 17 year old told you she was being sexually abused by her relatives and that she wanted to become a Christian? It is precisely because the Jesus Christians are willing to risk their own lives to protect such people (and to allow them to practise their religion freely) that puts them in such situations which present questions as to how best to deal with it. But, ehem, didn't Rick Ross physically and forcefully detain a 19 year old against his will? The Jesus Christians have never held anyone against their will. That's a big difference.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Dave was concerned about violence yet he sent him home? Or maybe Dave was not worried about violence but needed to get some information.
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. That's the kind of attitude we have often encoutered with people who like to demonise us. No, Dave didn't need any information. Joe went home because we were not convinced that he had thought through all the issues involved in joining the community. You see, when parents falsely accuse us, print lies about us, and persecute us, it puts the person who is thinking about joining us under a lot of pressure (caused by the parents, media, etc. and not by us!). They often feel like they should joing straight away, whereas we want them to make a rational decision after having considered all the issues.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Dave made similar statements during the Bobby Kelly case, claiming (on air) at one stage that he didnt know where BK was, yet all the time he was with group members in a campsite in Surrey( where the Police finally found him) In other words Dave lied.
Dave did not know where Bobby Kelly was. Just because Bobby was with members of the Jesus Christians does not mean that Dave knew his whereabouts. They purposely did not tell him so that he would not know. So, no, Dave did not lie.
[b:cfda774099]muppet[/b:cfda774099]:
Quote
Interesting that he uses the word captured rather than rescued.
As I said before, we have never held anyone against their will. It was Bobby who did not want to be made a ward of state and to be manipulated by his pastor or the "exit-counseller". So, the police, acting on the basis of lies having been told about us, physically removed Bobby from where he wanted to be. I could hardly call that "rescuing".
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Why would a parent have to contact a cult buster, and what exactly is a cult buster anyway?
I don't know why parents would have to. It is certainly something what we have not pressured parents to do! However, there are some people who want to manipulate parents for their own agendas. We often call them cult-busters, but they themselves often prefer the term "exit-counsellor". I think Rick Ross has had experience with this, so maybe you can ask him why parents have requested his help to remove their sons and daughters from religious groups they don't agree with.
[b:cfda774099]muppet:[/b:cfda774099]
Quote
Why on earth would any young man be scared to speak to the police in person?
Joe in fact has spoken several times to police in person. He has gone to different police stations and certified that he has not been kidnapped and has spent hours talking to police officers one on one about his situation. However, his parents, in cooperation with an exit-counsellor want him to go to a SPECIFIC police station, so they can detain him against his will.
The same thing happened to a young man in the U.K. The police called him on our mobile to inform him that he had been reported missing! When he went to a police station to confirm that he was not in fact missing, he was told that he had to go to another specific station. When he turned up at that specific station, he was met there by his mother, cousin and friends who all tried to physically detain him against his will. In the end his mother was arrested and held overnight for her behaviour.
Quote
Was Betty afraid too?
Yes she was. Kenya is one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and it is common knowledge that police can be bought for a price. So why shouldn't she be skeptical?
Well, that's all for now. Fran.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: June 22, 2006 06:54AM
Hi there
Most christians have made mistakes so I doubt that you will be criticised for that.
It is encouraging to hear that your fellow members might think for themselves. Are there any examples of maverick thinking in the group?
rrmoderator: Quote:
I am not aware that Jesus Christians has any mandated democratic process through a formal constitution, any government through an elected board, or financial transparency through a published independently audited financial report that details the groups buget and expenses.
Religious communities are different from private individuals. All information regarding the workings of the group should be available to members befroe they join. Any group who litnesses to the extent that your group does, collects a lot of money. It would also be in your own interests to have a public record of that and other items.
Do you operate as a charity and do you have any exemption from taxation? If you collect money from the public then as a group you should be liable for taxes if you are not a charity.
Does anyone in your group including the leader and his family claim benefits from any country or government?
Does the group have medical insurance for its members? What happens if someone experiences severe problems as a result of a kidney donation?
Dave does not like parents because they get in his way and perhaps he has not been very successful in that role himself.If they are all accusing him of the same thing, perhaps there is some substance to the allegation?
Are your parents happy with your decision?
I
There are a number of charities operating in India who could have helped a young girl in the circumstances you describe. Your group went to great lengths to lie about her whereabouts to the parents and to recruit her into the JC's. What counselling did you provise? Was it wise to take her out of the country?
I am unaware of the situation with the 19 year old. Was he one of your members? you seem unsure of your facts here so Is this an allegation or a fact? Seems doubtful.
She was so pressurised to stay that she ran off. She was given no time to think over the issues.
That is laughable. ..so Dave took the 'dont tell me so i wont be responsible ' attitude. Actually he denied that BK was with the group at one stage too. He lied.
He also lied when he tried to stir up some media interest in the group at the beginning of the kidney transplants. Jon ronson wrote a story about Dave clainmingto be Anita and lying to the press.
Would you say that the Police in the UK are more/ less understanding than in the US?
Did you write this contribution or did your leader have any input?
What charitable works do you do for the poor?
how long so you intend to stay in the group?
I believe thae leader is approaching his 70's
What will happen when the leader dies?
Is it true that he adopted somone in India who then married into his family?
Thank you for responding.
That is really encouraging!Quote
Since some of you have asked people to provide objective evidence, I thought I would contribute some based entirely on the fact that I AM a member, so I know what things go on and what does not go on in the Jesus Christians.
Why are you rushed?Quote
I would like to answer some of the issues raised (although I am a bit rushed at the moment for time, so I won't be able to contribute very much). I hope I can clarify some of the questions that people have, even though I realise that we may not all see eye to eye, and that we may still agree to disagree.
.Quote
I personally have not been a member of that group, but I have done some pretty dumb things when I was young! I suppose people can use that as evidence that I can never be a Christian, but I would seriously question such reasoning
Most christians have made mistakes so I doubt that you will be criticised for that.
Quote
I have donated one of my kidneys. It is true that I first found out about the possibility of donating a kidney through Dave (who had watched a movie about it on a plane to Australia). However, I would be stupid to make such a serious decision on the basis of a suggestion from someone else. One of the things that we encourage people to do is to think for themselves, and to be ready to make a stand against anyone if you feel they are leading you to do something that goes against your conscience and what you feel God is personally saying to you.
It is encouraging to hear that your fellow members might think for themselves. Are there any examples of maverick thinking in the group?
rrmoderator: Quote:
I am not aware that Jesus Christians has any mandated democratic process through a formal constitution, any government through an elected board, or financial transparency through a published independently audited financial report that details the groups buget and expenses.
muppet: Quote:Quote
I was not aware that people had to be so formal to be Christians. Neither am I aware that everyone in the world has to produce such public records. There are only around 25 Jesus Christians in the whole world. Such formality seems excessive. Nevertheless we have clear budget records of how every cent is spent between ourselves. We also DO have a democratic process when it comes to how to use funds or what project we are likely to invest time in.
By the way, do you publicly post an account of every cent that you spend? It wouldn't be fair to ask others to do something you don't do yourself.
Religious communities are different from private individuals. All information regarding the workings of the group should be available to members befroe they join. Any group who litnesses to the extent that your group does, collects a lot of money. It would also be in your own interests to have a public record of that and other items.
Do you operate as a charity and do you have any exemption from taxation? If you collect money from the public then as a group you should be liable for taxes if you are not a charity.
Does anyone in your group including the leader and his family claim benefits from any country or government?
Does the group have medical insurance for its members? What happens if someone experiences severe problems as a result of a kidney donation?
Dave does not like parents because they get in his way and perhaps he has not been very successful in that role himself.If they are all accusing him of the same thing, perhaps there is some substance to the allegation?
Quote
I would have to disagree with this statement, particularly because it incorrectly generalizes. Most of the JCs, including myself, have a good relationship with our parents. I have spent weeks living at my parents place any they have visited us when they have been near where we are. However, my parents didn't propagate lies about me or the Jesus Christians in the media, nor did they threaten with or use any physical violence. They just accepted that as an adult, I was free to choose what I want, and are confident that if I decide to do something else, then I will. But not all parents have that confidence with their children and so some react irrationally out of fear. Unfortunatley this often creates a self-fullfilling prophecy in that it causes us to hide when we think that someone is going to hurt us.
Are your parents happy with your decision?
I
Quote
am not sure what experience you have had in living in Developping Countries, but there are some things that are very different. In a predominantly Hindu and somewhat fundamentalist environment, what would you do if a 17 year old told you she was being sexually abused by her relatives and that she wanted to become a Christian? It is precisely because the Jesus Christians are willing to risk their own lives to protect such people (and to allow them to practise their religion freely) that puts them in such situations which present questions as to how best to deal with it. But, ehem, didn't Rick Ross physically and forcefully detain a 19 year old against his will? The Jesus Christians have never held anyone against their will. That's a big difference.
There are a number of charities operating in India who could have helped a young girl in the circumstances you describe. Your group went to great lengths to lie about her whereabouts to the parents and to recruit her into the JC's. What counselling did you provise? Was it wise to take her out of the country?
I am unaware of the situation with the 19 year old. Was he one of your members? you seem unsure of your facts here so Is this an allegation or a fact? Seems doubtful.
The JC's put pressure on a young woman to join in the UK and pressurised her to hand over her own and her husbands money. the pressure came from Dave who threatened to excommunicate the some of your members if they gave the young woman her money back.Quote
Damned if you do, and damned if you don't. That's the kind of attitude we have often encoutered with people who like to demonise us. No, Dave didn't need any information. Joe went home because we were not convinced that he had thought through all the issues involved in joining the community. You see, when parents falsely accuse us, print lies about us, and persecute us, it puts the person who is thinking about joining us under a lot of pressure (caused by the parents, media, etc. and not by us!). They often feel like they should joing straight away, whereas we want them to make a rational decision after having considered all the issues.
She was so pressurised to stay that she ran off. She was given no time to think over the issues.
Quote
Dave did not know where Bobby Kelly was. Just because Bobby was with members of the Jesus Christians does not mean that Dave knew his whereabouts. They purposely did not tell him so that he would not know. So, no, Dave did not lie.
That is laughable. ..so Dave took the 'dont tell me so i wont be responsible ' attitude. Actually he denied that BK was with the group at one stage too. He lied.
He also lied when he tried to stir up some media interest in the group at the beginning of the kidney transplants. Jon ronson wrote a story about Dave clainmingto be Anita and lying to the press.
If he wanted to be with you he would be with you. Is he with you? NoQuote
As I said before, we have never held anyone against their will. It was Bobby who did not want to be made a ward of state and to be manipulated by his pastor or the "exit-counseller". So, the police, acting on the basis of lies having been told about us, physically removed Bobby from where he wanted to be. I could hardly call that "rescuing".
You should address these questions directly to Rick Ross if you are making such serious allegations.Quote
We often call them cult-busters, but they themselves often prefer the term "exit-counsellor". I think Rick Ross has had experience with this, so maybe you can ask him why parents have requested his help to remove their sons and daughters from religious groups they don't agree with.
Why were they arrested? Was there an assualt? What was the mother charged with?Quote
The same thing happened to a young man in the U.K. The police called him on our mobile to inform him that he had been reported missing! When he went to a police station to confirm that he was not in fact missing, he was told that he had to go to another specific station. When he turned up at that specific station, he was met there by his mother, cousin and friends who all tried to physically detain him against his will. In the end his mother was arrested and held overnight for her behaviour.
Would you say that the Police in the UK are more/ less understanding than in the US?
Did you write this contribution or did your leader have any input?
What charitable works do you do for the poor?
how long so you intend to stay in the group?
I believe thae leader is approaching his 70's
What will happen when the leader dies?
Is it true that he adopted somone in India who then married into his family?
Thank you for responding.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Fran
()
Date: July 03, 2006 07:46PM
I came back to the site, hoping to contribute more to the thread and clarify any genuine enquiries. However, I was totally overwhelmed by the amount of questions you have asked, muppet, and also by your overall tone.
It seems that anything I say can and will be used against the Jesus Christians, so why should I bother now to spend so much time answering your questions. For example... "why are you so rushed"? Does it matter? Perhaps I needed to go to the toilet, or perhaps I just wanted to do other things with my time besides written at length at a website that brands me as a brainwashed cult member.
All I can add briefly is that it is quite clearly a no-win situation here. (yes, I would like to get other things done today and spending so much time answering people who are only looking for dirt is not really high on my priorities).
You say that my comments about the 19 year old must amount to only allegations because I didn't write every single detail of the account. No, they are not allegations or second handed comments. I was, in fact, an eye witness to these accounts (and in many cases the only eye witness from the Jesus Christians). So, I am reporting what I know from experience, as i explained in my earlier post.
On the other hand, you then include comments about that woman in the U.K., but you were not there, so you are only going by word of mouth. Yet you state it as fact.
But yeah, your entire post clearly shows that you are not interested in genuinely finding out whether the Jesus Christians are really as dangerous as you falsely say we are... instead you are only interested in continuing to look for dirt. Why should I invest more time into explaining things to people who only want to see the worst in us regardless of anything else.
It seems that anything I say can and will be used against the Jesus Christians, so why should I bother now to spend so much time answering your questions. For example... "why are you so rushed"? Does it matter? Perhaps I needed to go to the toilet, or perhaps I just wanted to do other things with my time besides written at length at a website that brands me as a brainwashed cult member.
All I can add briefly is that it is quite clearly a no-win situation here. (yes, I would like to get other things done today and spending so much time answering people who are only looking for dirt is not really high on my priorities).
You say that my comments about the 19 year old must amount to only allegations because I didn't write every single detail of the account. No, they are not allegations or second handed comments. I was, in fact, an eye witness to these accounts (and in many cases the only eye witness from the Jesus Christians). So, I am reporting what I know from experience, as i explained in my earlier post.
On the other hand, you then include comments about that woman in the U.K., but you were not there, so you are only going by word of mouth. Yet you state it as fact.
But yeah, your entire post clearly shows that you are not interested in genuinely finding out whether the Jesus Christians are really as dangerous as you falsely say we are... instead you are only interested in continuing to look for dirt. Why should I invest more time into explaining things to people who only want to see the worst in us regardless of anything else.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
muppet
()
Date: July 10, 2006 07:08AM
Quote
I came back to the site, hoping to contribute more to the thread and clarify any genuine enquiries.'
Well I can see how you are disappointing oyurself then Fran because you placed yourself in a position claiming to be capable of sussing out the genuine enquiries from the not genuine. And no doubt about it in your mind ...you can do it...you can sort out the time bandits form the sincere and such bullshit. For the sake of the general public I will explain. When Fran refers to 'genuine' enquiries he is referring to possible recruits. If you are not a possible recruit the JC's will not waste a split second on you.
If the leader had not instructed him to be on these boards , he would not be here.
Nice diversion tactic with the attack on whatever caused these questions to be asked.... but I can see you just cant face answering the questions asked on the board!! is it because you would lose members?
What ARE you implying about yourself in relation to Rick Ross? if you have something to say jsut say it otherwise why come here in the first place?
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
Fran
()
Date: July 14, 2006 04:22PM
Quote
muppet
Well I can see how you are disappointing oyurself then Fran because you placed yourself in a position claiming to be capable of sussing out the genuine enquiries from the not genuine. And no doubt about it in your mind ...you can do it...you can sort out the time bandits form the sincere and such bullshit.
I was disappointed, not because I can't answer questions, but because you are not interested in the answers, as is clearly evident. You have already made up your mind that we are evil, so you see evil in even the most innocent and insignificant things (e.g. that I was rushed at the time of writing the letter).
Quote
muppet
For the sake of the general public I will explain. When Fran refers to 'genuine' enquiries he is referring to possible recruits.
Not only does it appear that you are not interested in hearing anything that would refute your slanderous accusations, but you also have the nerve to tell the general public what it is that you think I mean when I say something. No, I am not referring to possible recruits. If you know anything about the Jesus Christians, you should know that after 25 years of existence we have only about 25 members.
A 'genuine' enquiry is someone who is genuinely interested in the answers. It is definitely NOT someone who has already made up their minds to see evil in everything we say and do. It has nothing to do with regard to whether you want to become a member. It just has to do with common decency in listening to the other person and showing some common respect.
Quote
muppet
If you are not a possible recruit the JC's will not waste a split second on you.
Another slanderous and untrue statement. Why would I come to a website that labels us as a cult to look for recruits?? And what would you say to the many friends that we have who do not want to join our community? But you are not interested in that. You just want to paint us as being evil regardless of the facts.
Quote
muppet
If the leader had not instructed him to be on these boards , he would not be here.
Wrong again! Nobody instructed me to come to this message board. And Dave, as far as I know, has not even seen these posts, let alone contributed anything to them. I came to the board because I was personally curious about them. Period.
Quote
muppet
Nice diversion tactic with the attack on whatever caused these questions to be asked....
We all know what caused the questions to be asked. And that is your own campaign to paint us as being evil regardless of the facts. You are not interested in the answers to the questions, because as soon as I answer any of them, you will ignore all the ones that refute your slander and latch on to any that you can twist to support your case. Even claiming that I am using diversion tactics is your attempt to manipulate in getting what you want (ie. painting us as being evil)
Quote
muppet
but I can see you just cant face answering the questions asked on the board!! is it because you would lose members?
Why would we lose members by answering questions? The more you post, the more I can see how little you really know about us. My guess is that you have never personally met any of us. Isn't that the case? Yet you claim to be an expert on what we believe. And when someone who has met us comes to refute you, you just say that they don't know what they are talking about. Pathetic.
Quote
muppet
What ARE you implying about yourself in relation to Rick Ross?
I think this is a genuine misunderstanding. When I spoke of being present with the 19 year old, I was talking about the case when we went to the police station in the U.K. and his mother was arrested for assaulting him and later for biting one of the police officers. Rick Ross was in no way associated with this. Sorry for the confusion, I posted it under the wrong quote.
I don't really know much about the case with Rick Ross other than what I read on the internet. It may very well be just allegations, but I heard that he forcefully removed a 19 year old from a group the parent's of the man didn't agree with, and that Rick Ross was later sued. I heard that he filed for bankruptcy and had to close down his website and later started another one. As I said, these may just be allegations.
I could spend more time trying to answer all the questions you raised, muppet, but as I said, my feeling is that you are not keen to hear answers. Perhaps if you could express a commitment to really wanting to know the truth, it would encourage me to believe that you would listen. As I mentioned before, I don't expect you or anyone to agree with how we do things, but I do expect you to stop telling lies about us.
Australian cult: Anyone recognize this?
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: July 14, 2006 07:45PM
Fran:
You are here as an apologist, which is obvious from your posts.
You are referring to the Jason Scott case, which ended ten years ago.
Scientology lawyers used Scott as a puppet plaintiff to sue me. In the end Scott said he was "used" and settled the suit largely for 200 hours of additional consultation. He also left the group that had drawn the concern of his family and reconciled with his mother.
Sadly his wife divorced him after he left the group and remains a member with his two daughters. Last I heard they are estranged from their father largely because of the influence of the group and its teachings.
Anyone interested in the Scott case can read about at through the archive on this database.
See [www.culteducation.com]
There is a complete section at "Cult Deporgramming."
There was never a previous website that was shut down.
There have been attempts to shut down this website, but they have all failed.
Attempting to attack me personally won't change the fact that many people view your group as a "cult" and consider your leader (a former member of the notorious Children of God) a controlling and manipulative man.
Have you given up one of your kidneys per Dave's teachings yet?
You are here as an apologist, which is obvious from your posts.
Quote
I heard that he forcefully removed a 19 year old from a group the parent's of the man didn't agree with, and that Rick Ross was later sued.
You are referring to the Jason Scott case, which ended ten years ago.
Scientology lawyers used Scott as a puppet plaintiff to sue me. In the end Scott said he was "used" and settled the suit largely for 200 hours of additional consultation. He also left the group that had drawn the concern of his family and reconciled with his mother.
Sadly his wife divorced him after he left the group and remains a member with his two daughters. Last I heard they are estranged from their father largely because of the influence of the group and its teachings.
Anyone interested in the Scott case can read about at through the archive on this database.
See [www.culteducation.com]
There is a complete section at "Cult Deporgramming."
Quote
I heard that he filed for bankruptcy and had to close down his website and later started another one.
There was never a previous website that was shut down.
There have been attempts to shut down this website, but they have all failed.
Attempting to attack me personally won't change the fact that many people view your group as a "cult" and consider your leader (a former member of the notorious Children of God) a controlling and manipulative man.
Have you given up one of your kidneys per Dave's teachings yet?
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