Thank you to those who responded to my post concerning possible links between the Jesus Christians, the Order of the Solar Temple and Heaven's Gate, particularly in relation to David McKay's beliefs. I noted the material on wedding bands, but to be fair, it seemed inconclusive.

Nonetheless, I think that any mad/bad individual who preaches apocalyptic Christianity needs to be watched carefully, lest an apparently harmless religious community crosses the line and becomes a doomsday cult. I'm particularly wary of anyone who preaches end-time prophesy.

Look at Marshall Applewhite, leader of Heaven's Gate. An ageing cult leader with only a handful of followers. A massive ego, but somebody who (because of his years of effort and tiny membership) knew deep down that he was a failure - an insignificant little nobody. Murder/suicide became the only way that he could (in his deluded mind) make an impact and be remembered.

But look at that description of Marshall Applewhite again:

"An ageing cult leader with only a handful of followers. A massive ego, but somebody who (because of his years of effort and tiny membership) knew deep down that he was a failure - an insignificant little nobody".

Doesn't that sound like someone we all know?

Quote
zeuszor
Heaven's Gate was a group that believed that Marshall Applewhite ("Do") was an alien who had been inhabiting the body of the person that we call Jesus, and who had reincarnated on Earth 2000 years later in an effort to locate and evacuate with the other aliens/angels before the Earth was destroyed.

[youtube.com]

The woman in this clip was named Yvonne. She was a member of Heaven's Gate for less than six months when she was convinced to "exit her vehicle" (kill herself, commit suicide) so that she could board the spacecraft that had come to pick up "the class" and take them to The Kingdom of God. The group cultivated/recruited her via the Internet. Less than six months! That is the potency that this "snapping" phenomenon can have. That is how powerfully persuasive that these cult mind-control dynamics can be in the right circumstances! THAT is what makes McKay dangerous. A small group, for the most part cut off from mainstream society, nomadic, semi-communal living, a psychotic leader teaching potentially volatile doctrine, equals recipe for disaster. How many people had heard of Heaven's Gate before they all would up dead? We cannot trivialize or marginalize the JCs or DM because of their lack of numbers and high defection rate over the years.

I posted this back on page 179. Why write a whole new post? This one sum up what I'd like to say.

DM, though bad enough, does not appear to be nearly as deluded and demented as Applewhite was. I mean, this guy literally believed that he was Jesus returned. DM is not (yet?) apparently as totally schizo as "DO" was. I believe, after having done my share of research on HG, that Applewhite actually believed that UFO stuff. DM in my opinion is a cynical, conscience-free manipulator who only pays lip service to Jesus and the Scriptures in order to do what he does. But how many people had heard of Heaven's Gate before they were all gone? A handful of concerned parents, cult experts, and certain specialized academics? Robert Balch was writing about Heaven's Gate (then, I believe, with no actual name as a group, in the early "Guinea and Pig" days when Netlles was alive ) over thirty years ago, and even travelled with and lived among them for a while in their early days. Among them (HG) were a former Army Ranger and Desert Storm veteran, the brother of the woman who played Lt. Uhura on the original Star Trek, a bit-part actor in some old Westerns...they were all people who had their very lives taken away from them.

Mad or bad? "DO" was mad, but DM is just plain bad. But I do not speculate to know for sure, and that's all just my opinion. In closing, and in a mood of respect to the 39 souls who left this world in March of '97, here they are, with a short biography of each. This is a list of some of them. Let's not let it happen on our watch.

[www.corvalliscommunitypages.com]



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 02:10PM by zeuszor.

DISREGARD



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 02:41PM by zeuszor.

Quote
Malcolm Wesley WREST
On Wednesday April 16th, David wrote:

Ash is still in the group. Grace is still in the group. Ross is still in the group. What IS true is that Martin is working more or less independently now, but even he is still living by faith and distributing our literature full time. So you may have to cancel the dance!

Perhaps we'll have to briefly postpone those particular celebrations,....but it does appear as though we can all afford to break into raucously energetic dance, over the escape of Vicki, and the future lives that have now been won for her precious children.....

Mal, who is the Vicki of whom you write here?

It just occured to me...the world didn't have the Internet yet back in Robert Balch's day...what a potent tool it is for communicating and distributing information all over the world! Wow!

Sorry for three in a row, everybody, I am not trying to showboat here but only am trying to catch up on some correspondence. Bye now.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 02:43PM by zeuszor.

Some recent Dave doublespeak: SOURCE: [welikejesus.com]

“Bible prophecy is NOT of huge significance within the Jesus Christians, far from it... believe it or not”

I think not. Lets see... Dave believed the destruction of the United States was imminent in 1967 and fled to Australia with his heavily pregnant wife and son. He joined the Children of God with similar end time prophecies and wrote a manuscript on the book of Jeremiah, which Dave sees as a prophetic lament for the destruction of the United States. He traveled around the US with his son in 1981 wearing sandwich boards and flogging his book, The Fall of America, which references prophecies contained in the book of Daniel, Ezekiel, and Revelation. This was repeated some ten years later when the whole community went to the US and systematically covered the country in campervan teams to deliver the same doomsday message.

The 1998 Virgin Army article was based upon a passage in Revelation 7 which Dave used to suggest that members should not marry and those who do should not have children with some convoluted logic that this would make them spiritual “virgins”. This resulted in some single JC’s wearing wedding rings and some men getting vasectomies

More recently Dave has written a series of fictional books on the endtime, the distribution of which has been a main priority for some years.

The verichip is a hot topic of discussion as the ‘mark of the beast’, such that community members are refusing to get new passports that use microchip technology.

So if Dave thinks “BIBLE prophecy” is not of huge significance within the JC’s perhaps he means to say DAVE’S prophecy is, or perhaps he has lost faith in it all and it is just a nice little fiction which keeps the troops united and working for him.


“Now if you want to talk about the teachings of Jesus, then that's a different matter…”

Hmmm… I wonder what would happen if someone discussed Christ’s teaching about calling no man “leader”, because we are all brothers with one teacher in heaven (Matthew 23:8). I believe this is referred to as the “Malcolm Wrest heresy” and became the basis for expelling Dave’s own son.

Dave likes to use the difficult teachings of Jesus to condemn the church and to keep members feeling inadequate, but he certainly does not like individual discussion on the subject if it might lead people away from his control.

When individual JC’s discussed Christ’s teaching on “giving to those who ask” (on the Learning to Love thread) and of one member feeling convicted because a woman he was preaching to went to the aid of an elderly woman who had fallen, while he did nothing, Dave dismissed the homeless as unworthy, and the actions of the woman as insignificant as he urged the troops to focus their attention on the more important job of distributing his books and sending money to support programs he’s instituted in Kenya.

Most of what Jesus taught was directed against institutional thinking, and when the outsider “Samaritan” pointed out that Jesus emphasised the significance of observing “little things” like welcoming strangers/children, showing empathy toward the unworthy, and responding to the unscheduled interruption, he was ridiculed and challenged to prove his righteousness.

Dave like most of the “empire builders” he condemns seems more interested in the Teachings of Jesus as a platform from which to rule and as a club he can use against others rather than a standard, which humbles us all.


"See, what we do teach is that SINCERITY (i.e. "walking in all the light that you have") is the key to salvation.”

As long as that “sincerity” results in people recognising the authority of Dave and observing his instruction on every “little thing” (like correctly spelling “a lot”). Dave just dismisses anyone who doesn’t as walking away from the light, as he has with his own daughter and family who continue to observe the JC ideal of “living by faith” and “working for love”, but who Dave has estranged and labelled as "enemies posing as friends".


“…I wish you would stop calling it "my community". There is a group called Jesus Christians. They do not belong to me. They are under no obligation to believe me, follow me, obey me, or agree with me.”

I recall an email from Dave posted on the RR forum in which he declared himself as starting a new community that required each JC to apply to join, where he spelt out his executive role and which was elaborated in articles in which he described himself as the “anointed apostle”, “Captain of the Ship” etc, with executive power to rule with the "rod of correction" etc.

Dave can project himself as egalitarian and offer all kinds of liberties to try and lure people into his circle of control, but then when someone does disagree with ANYTHING they are routinely bullied into submission. The whole reaction against Tofferer for politely stating that he was taking some time out to reconsider some differences is just a taste of what one can expect in the doublespeak domain of Dave.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/27/2008 05:05PM by apostate.

Thank you, Zueszor, for your response to my latest post on possible similarities between David McKay's beliefs and those of Heaven's Gate and the Order of the Solar Temple.

Of course, there's nothing wrong with belief in end-times and indeed such predictions are a feature of many world religions. The problem arises when people believe Armageddon is imminent and it's this belief that seems to have triggered murder and suicide in a number of cults. That's why the first part of Apostate's last post is so disturbing, because it suggests McKay has the same sort of apocalyptic end-times belief system that has been associated with previous tragedies. The situation is even more dangerous if McKay genuinely believes he has some special part to play in events.

Judging from previous tragedies, the danger sign seems to be a sudden upsurge in material about an imminent apocalypse. Something to watch for in McKay's writings, perhaps?

I am very happy for Vicki, whom I met personally in Los Angeles and liked very much. She is a lovely woman with two beautiful, smart daughters. I thought about the three of them often and could not fathom why they would spent their time working (slaving) for Dave. Vicki had also just donated a kidney when I met her. Maybe we'll hear from her on this forum? That would be delightful.

Viki, if you are reading this, please PM. Welcome.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/28/2008 08:58PM by Dogmother.

Dear Tamalsca,

Your comment that:

Look at Marshall Applewhite, leader of Heaven's Gate. An ageing cult leader with only a handful of followers. A massive ego, but somebody who (because of his years of effort and tiny membership) knew deep down that he was a failure - an insignificant little nobody. Murder/suicide became the only way that he could (in his deluded mind) make an impact and be remembered.

...is perspicious. Looking over the course of the decades (with for example Barbiedolls' recent relevationsin mind), he has obviously only become worse with time, and to watch him now even stooping to qualify the ONLY thing that he once claimed he stood for, (literal obediance to Christ), it's clear that really there is nothing other than "himself" that is of any real concern now.....as Apostate notes above in this regard: Dave like most of the “empire builders” he condemns seems more interested in the Teachings of Jesus as a platform from which to rule and as a club he can use against others rather than a standard, which humbles us all.


I would agree that Bible Prophecy is NOT of huge significance for David (on those occasions where he cannot somehow twist it into self-attention!....the teachings of Christ are of no huge significance either, where they do not serve to justify David's authority)


...hence the "Marshal Applewhite" scenario is not beyond possibility, although I'd still like to think that is (currently!) improbable.....from the experiences Barbiedoll has just related (David's scandalously inaccurate prevarications that are intended to "discredit" her among anyone who cannot access an alternate opinion, are not challenged whatsoever by those in the UK team who know full well they are simply lies )....we can anticipate, that Roland and Sue (and the rest of the UK team?) would ultimately, just dutifully drink the "poisoned Kool-Aid" when instructed, thinking themselves thereby to have faithfully served "God" to the death, by so doing.....it only has to be couched in the "right terms" (He who loves his life will lose it....whereas...he who hates his life will keep it....!) to "trigger" the obedience that is stealthily conditioned into them...(...if you're not content to obey David, you must be at fault!)

Prior to "HeavensGate" Marshall Applewhite probably would have "modestly" described himself as the leader a small group of sincere Christians, too...and only those who had any personal knowledge of what went on, behind the facade would have questioned the whole thing more deeply.

It scares me somewhat when i think about what time has shown us other cults.

This is really just a plea to Sue and the others in the UK team (because you are the ones i cared for when i was with you) please dont drink any poison or do anything that is so obviously NOT what God wants you to do.

You have to remember what you first wanted to do when you first joined the Jesus Christians. Was it not to have a close relationship with your father? Was it not to make a difference in the lives of many around you? Even if Dave TELLS you that you are making a difference you need to look at what that difference is.

For me i like to walk alongside someone in thier walk with God and let my light shine out. It is not to be sad on the streets handing out NOVELS that have been written by a man who lets face it is a "little bit crazy".

Sue you know how much i care for you and you know how much our friendship meant to me and i know that it meant a lot to you, if ever you find yourself not wanting to be in the community any longer then look me up. I will of course welcome you in to my family.

One can make a difference and one can do that without being a jesus christian. It is possible you know to be a "real" Christian without being so angry at the world.

Best wishes ALL of you in the UK team.

To the person who sent me a PM on the 17th. Have tried to reply, but unfortunately your inbox is full. You need to clear/delete some of your mail in order to be able to accept new mail.

Hopefully, I am up to date with replying to everyone else.

I will take this opportunity to give my best wishes to everyone, your efforts are appreciated.

I do believe even some of the longer term members are really starting to think about the whole concept of being a book seller for Dave. Somehow it is not what they imagined Jesus wanted from them. There is definetely a lot of chatter about people feeling disgruntled and acknowledging what they read on this site rings true. They have tried Dave's way for a number of years and at least some are thinking, maybe now's a good time to explore other options.