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picard2bridge
And, I know three Jesus Christians, including Ash, the subject of the documentary. None are close friends, per se, but I would count them as friends.
When I first met these people I knew I had little in common with their brand of Christianity, and I wanted to be able to discount them as loony cultists, but it wasn't that easy. They were all really down to earth, friendly people who cared about the world and issues, and had the radical action mantra that many of us sang from the rooftops from our Uni days and still sympathised with. I know I was a member of Greenpeace, Friends of the Earth and so on.
I was impressed that these guys were willing to give so much time and effort to campaigning against the Australian government's appalling treatment of refugees, and I was intrigued by the kidney donation thing as I had contemplated this for myself in the past and to some extent still do. Of the three JCs I know, two have already donated kidneys and the third is Ash.
Picard, I could easily have been seen like this by you while I was with the JC's too. Remember, all us ex members were, at one stage, very excited and eager to join what seemed like a really idealistic and sincere group of people, who actually seemed to DO idealistic things and not just talk about them.
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On the other side, whilst none of them have ever tried to 'convert me' or even show me one of their books, I am sure I'd hate every word of them as I would view them as fundamentalist nonsense. But that's not reflected in the three JCs I know who are just decent guys, likable, thinking, caring, Alternative, yes. Eccentric, perhaps. But so what?
Now this debate has had its fair share of anti-JCs quoting madly from some of the bad press that JCs receive as if the perpetual repetition of the same bad press somehow goes to strengthen their argument against the JCs. It does not. There have been three or four odd incidents, certainly. It would appear that people have joined the group against the wishes of parents and rellies who have then spat the dummy. Now the JCs should have stayed away from minors in situations like that, and that shows an appalling lack of judgment on the part of their leader, which is shameful and may or may not be sinister. The mock trial and whipping business is just weird and also reflects very poorly on DM
But as for adults joining this group, in a democracy they have the right to do what they like, and join any group they wish. The three JCs I know are very clearly not being 'mind controlled' and don't seem to revere Dave McK as a guru.
You can only see the outside layer. We are all encouraged to present a good face to the world, to "cover" our leadership. Yes, they are all nice guys! Dave likes to prey on such. Initially, it seems like the community has a fair bit of discussion and democracy. It's a bit like being a frog in increasingly warming up water. You accept more and more crap because you think it's worth it because of the idealistic things you do. You start to realise how much control Dave has and how impossible it is to go against him in any major way. He will not give up in a group discussion until he wins. Group members learn that the easy way is to agree with him, then you can get some sleep. The members now are probably more compliant, in the past it was not unusual to have all night meetings that would go on and on until all resistance was crushed.
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And this forum debate has been very enlightening. RR and others seem to start from an a priori assumption that this is a mind control cult. I suspect that if I didn't know any of the JCs I would probably start from the same position. But there is a clear evidence of facts provided for this, just a rehashing of the same old bad press. And when one or two JCs like Fran come in they are accused of being apologists and their arguments discounted. Actually, Frans arguments were well put and thought out and showed no signs of apologistics, but she was treated quite dismissively by some on this forum who claim to be rationalist, but are as fervently fundamentalist in a way as those whom they oppose.
I was disappointed that Fran was treated dismissively. I thought the debate I had with him was good and fair. I hope that there is less "knee jerk" reactions against suspected apologists. It only entrenches positions.
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But then DM came on, and very quickly lost his cool and became petty and insulting, making little snipes at people. And that told me more about him than I previously knew.
Yes. Dave shows his colours pretty quickly and easily. He is a bully and very controlling and a micromanager. It's good he is so transparent, really, it has probably helped keep his recruitment down to such small levels.
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So my summary. Are the JCs a cult--dunno, maybe, but if they are there are far more dangerous cults out there, including the Pentecostals, Southern Baptists, Tridentenes and so on. Are they exercising mind control over their followers, influencing them to give kidneys and so on. Not from what I’ve seen. Does it occur to anyone that people with pre-held beliefs and sympathies might band together, rather than come in mindless and be given beliefs?
I was amused when Ash in the documentary says that people might think that he is naive, idealistic and so on. Indeed, maybe he is a little, but what exactly is wrong with that, within reason?
I think it's great that people are idealistic. I think it's horrible when that idealism is exploited and abused. There are many organisations that are not "total" organisations which I believe are much better avenues for idealism. Organisations that you can join and leave with a handshake and good mutual feelings at both ends. Organisations that are publicly accountable and transparent and democratic. Organisations commited to long term success instead of short term stunts. Organisations that tolerate and celebrate diversity. Australian Volunteers International are one such body. Uniting Church missions are another. There are many others.
More than anything, Dave brings hope for hurting idealistic youngsters for a father figure they have lacked in their lives. A man who cares enough supposedly to bring them in to his "family". This is the main attraction. This trust is abused and exploited. I can't think of one JC that has a good relationship with their father.[/quote]