Holy tamoley!
You guys sure like to argue.
That's one of the reasons I stopped posting on here a year ago.

Cara is not being a "bitch"...she's just had her life turned upside down.
As ex-Chris devotees, we all had our lives turned upside down...
which if you all recall, was a way NO fun experience...trauma to the max.

Everyone is free to form their own opinions of
the other people who are posting on here...
I think we can all agree on that...yes?
But to use this particular forum to scream and
yell at one another seems to be counter productive.
Wanna scream at somebody...send them a PM.

If someone seems suspicious to you on here,
and you think they are in fact still associated with
Science of Identity in any way...
would it not perhaps be better to privately contact the moderator
of this forum? Tell them exactly "why" (facts, not imaginings)
you think this person should be checked out.
I'm sure all who are posting here want to feel safe,
and if it is their desire, also completely anonymous.

Maybe I just have some idealistic notion that what
this forum is for, is number one: information about a cult...
one that we all happen to know about first hand.
And also perhaps to help one another heal by relating our stories...
i.e. we are not alone, we could help one another.

There are going to be people on here,
as there are every where in life...
who are into gossiping, being noisy, agitators,
looking for dirt on someone else, like arguing,
like pressing their point of view, ADD infinitum!!!
There are also people on here wanting to sincerely help.
We were a highly varied group of humans when we
were all involved with Chris...we still are ;)

Can we ALL agree life with Chris sucked....yes?
Okay:
We tell others looking at this forum WHY it sucked.
We hope that anyone considering being involved with any cult
will find this information helpful.
We can also hope that anyone still involved with Chris might
find encouragement to leave.
We can give hope to ex-devotees, or those thinking about leaving,
that life after Chris can be OK...happy and productive.
We hope to warn the general public what businesses,
public figures, etc are indeed directly connected to Chris.

When I first posted here a year ago, I was just so jazzed
to find other ex-Chris folks to talk to. There were many
remembrance type post back and forth. And things like,
'oh my god, I didn't know that's what was happening'.
That was good for me personally at the time.
Now, if I am to continue to post here at all, I feel (for me)
that getting out information to others is the key...
and it can be done in a variety of ways.

All of our needs are different. For some folks, just to connect
with other ex-Chris devotees is paramount in their lives.
For others, to read and "listen" to what's being said is most helpful.
For some, being outspoken advocates against Chris' organization is key.
Let us please allow everybody their space.

This is not a boxing ring.
We don't need to one-up the other guy.
Save your mental gymnastics to help your kids with their homework ;)

When I left Chris' organization...my new mantra became:
Please let me live an ordinary everyday life.
A life without daily drama, major trauma,
and that sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach.

Please...
let us be kind to one another.
This one life experience we have all shared, has NOT been ordinary.

Peace be with you all.

This is just a list of further allegations Zelig. You have not explained anything I asked you.

On top of intimidating and agressively attacking current followers and alienating them you now include allegations of attacking ex-followers aswell. It's fairly clear that all your accusations are aimed at one person which is consequentially disrupting her time and attempt to expose SIF. She was just asking questions about Gabbard's past and it turned into a long criticism of her from you. Gabbard has knowingly MISREPRESENTED his past and for her to stop asking questions based failing dubious memories of someone painting him as such a swell guy makes me wonder why his history is so off-limits. (*You should know Cara that as soon as you mention names on this thread you will begin to hear a lot of 'noise.' Very few were even posting here before you started asking questions about Gabbard. Interestingly.)*

Zelig you are now claiming that members of this thread have accused exes of being the enemy, cult apologists, brainwashed and cowards. Giving the impression that 'if you are not with us you are against us.'

Please show me the speculations about unknown, private people in the cult.

You have accused members of this forum of not gauranteeing confidentiality. This is perhaps the most serious allegation that would be a concern for many people on this thread and you might like you to provide evidence of this.

*Who* has asked you to embellish and not tell the truth? *Who* is claiming to represent all the ex-followers?

Please provide evidence of your claims, your mounting allegations, against such calous personalities.

Where is all this information that is available about SIF besides that researched and posted on this forum and the anit-SIF site? Zelig you have been involved on this thread for a year and have offered very little by way of links to any verifyable info which might back-up your "experience". 99% of links you post have nothing whatsoever to do with SIF. Again, interestingly! If this information is available as you assure me it is please provide this promptly.

You've simply offered the hierachy of needs which is a weak suggestion of how to convince people to come out of the cult. We should tell people in the cult how great our lives are to tempt them out. Not going to work Zelig with the potential you are suggesting as people in the cult don't perceive this as being wrong and you Zelig are the demoniac, insane freak for leaving or even being concerned about your own hierachy of needs. You're evil for seeing you have needs outside pleasing Siddha, see?

Private members? Members of SIF have a whole history of denying the existence of their cult and go to the extent of changing it's name in seperate countries to hide the fact that they are even linked. Confidentiality and secrecy surrounding SIF and it's guru is the one thing that is maintaining this organisation. People in the cult don't openly admit to it's purpose, structure, location or even existence. The only time that SIF is in the public eye is through it's politics and businesses and they provide little contact details to the recruitment centers with no elaboration on who they are. [u:e3819cd35d]Not pubishing information about these businesses and the private individuals who run them is exactly what the cult wants.[/u:e3819cd35d] They don't want us to know who they are. So let's post as much information and blow their cover by providing MORE knowledge of the cult members and it's movements. You would be correct that this could cause harm to some people's reputations sure who are actively funding and maintaining the cult Gabbard will cry "gay conpiracy" that we are "demonizing" his families good name. SIF will send more letters claiming villification and "religiously intolerant" people are maliously destroying their "wonderful organisation." But this IS a cult and people are going to be hurt far more by not exposing them. To bake a cake breaking eggs is completely unaviodable and [u:e3819cd35d]your suggestion if followed would be a complete Godsend to Siddhaswarupa[/u:e3819cd35d]. They stay in business and we demons sit on the net convincing members "demon life" is great. "Way" to stand by and let them be.

Your claim that people in the cult you knew were all so good is as absurd as those claiming the people were all average. Anyone who had been in this cult would know that it harbours some of the worst people you have ever met. SIF emphasizes any dark characteristics a person may have.

No artistic, intellectual, musical people come out of this cult because the mental programming created by Chris Butler is designed to eliminate individuality and creativity. The only successful individuals that I know of in regard to SIF are those who remained distant but remained friends with members going to chants on very occasionally. The rest may have been something before joining, not after. All the artistic endeavors of the cult are generic versions of popular culture. This cult never encourages innovation. Noone ever follows Siddhaswarupa's instructions perfectly as his teachings are impossible to ever live up to. Then the extreme contradictions cause distress for the followers as they are left in a confused state of mind as to which teachings to follow. Siddhaswarupa doesn't wish for anyone to follow his teachings perfectly as that is not what keeps them under his thumb. By making impossible goals he programs people to loose self-esteem and doubt themselves. There are terrible people but how terrible they would be without SIF is the question? Despite the personal value of individuals (intelligence, compassion, creativity, potential, humanity) which varies in members, *noone* chooses to be brainwashed. This is the propaganda and generalities that certain harmful people would like us to focus on. "People in cults are to blame", "they are ignorant hicks for joining", etc.

For you being close to Siddha perhaps it wasn't so bad. Those in the inner circle receive certain benefits and keep the rest of the flock inline, they are exploiting those who by your description who had it far worse. Gabbard is the senator setting his family up for life with a slaves who do the work for him and paid for him to get into office. *If he actively worshipped a gay/tilly hater in the early 80s that is what he was. Siddha hated tilly's in the 70s so followers of that time were actively following a tilly-hater. It's not just gays either in the cult I was taught that everyone was evil outside of SIF. Everyone I spoke to from disciples to students agreed that meat-eaters were absolute demons. That is what we were all programmed to beieve.*

The people you say Siddha thought of as pathetic, that he didn't tolerate, was not you. He had certain respect for those he could use, in your recollection Zelig. I'm sure it wasn't all that bad for you. Outside that inner-circle is the slaves. These are not those managing businesses and living comfortably. They are factory workers. They did not receive the moonlit chaitanya lectures you so adoringly portray. That is not "SIF" and it has not been SIF for an awful long time. This changed dramatically in the middle of your involvement (late 70s) when priorities changed. All you have really is a period during the 70s where you want to suggest that everything was wonderful and ontrack to being a legitimate spiritual path.

Let's not focus on this nostalgia of a brief period in history which seems a little biased. They are a cult and always were a cult *period* beginning in the mid 60s. There are more reports of Siddha being a whacko in the seventies, besides your portrayall, even from his own guru.

You are asserting you are scared of these people and that your children have been saved from this abusive cult. Stay in character Zelig as your story changes like your isps.

Anyone in a cult - is the cult itself. Without their involvement there would be no cult. But that is not to say despite actively maintaining and propagating it that they are evil. Given the right circumstances anyone can be programmed. It's not a sign of weakness but of a conspiring leader. All parents, religions, schools, corporations, media, advertising and goverment agencies adopt some form of programming. Sending a child to their room is an attempt to alter their behavior. It just depends on intencity of this control that shows if this is an attempt to develop blind followers or decent values in an individual.

Siddhaswarupa's order that followers fast for six months shows he is a programmer of the worst kind attempting to create miserable, blind followering servants. He was involved in practicing programming techniques as early as the sixties with his psychic sleep and he continued to hypnotize his followers while he was involved in ISKCON. There is a video on the indiadivine site where he describes programming, mentioning a pioneer of mind control (you also brought up) who he has obviously studied and without going as far as admitting this is what he is doing he tells followers to program themselves into his cult. What is the difference?

How he learnt to brainwash people in the first place is curious. A surfer bum on an island beginnings hypnotizing his fellow surfers to gain submissive worship is interesting. The way Siddha repeats his sentences using different phrasing over and over, and suggests that followers should listen to his lectures regularly certainly shows that he is expoiting those who come in contact with his cult searching for knowledge by indoctrinating them and turning people into his personal slaves. Curious people who are new to this religion are shown how attractive the philosophy is, then fed up with delicious foot-water cooked food, seranaded with nice music, taught relaxation techniques to have them feeling good before playing a mind control tape which turns them into robots. If you are new how would you know the leader is adept at brainwashing people? No cults recruit followers from their compounds with men standing at the entrance way with guns. That all comes later.

So let's have less criticisms of Cultreporter and more posting of information that is actually relevant to SIF. Post whatever the hell information you think you have to provide Zelig following your supposed ethics and CultR can follow her own ethics. I sincerely look forward to your abundantly substantiated information about SIF, that you assure me is freely available to the public sans long rants about Cult in your next post Z.

Seems to me that Cara / Cultreporter has more moxie that most of had
when we left Chris' group! At least more than I certainly had.
I just wanted to run away as far as I could get.
But she's out there, in Science of Identity and Chris' face.
Trying all avenues she can think of to expose them.

I say, YOU GO GIRL !

Leave this woman alone...let her do her work.

I would not have to say anything if not for being personally attacked here by Zelig and co now would I? I like being cast in the comical conspiracy and oooh called a bitch :roll: and having long diatribes about my motives and credibility presented. The funniest thing is that anyone that [b:fe76093227]knows[/b:fe76093227] me knows that I have a very short attention span and that there are other things I would (once have) rather devoted my life to than activist pursits and if the cult of butler had not tried to play heavy handed games and still control my life I would have given up ages ago :P All the upset over the naming of names just makes me wonder which one you are on the list Z and what blood is on your hands that just wont wash off - and never will.

Wikipedia is considered as an unreliable source of information because with the anyone can edit button it is a collection of anyone's ignorance, misconceptions, sloppy research and information agendas.

The reason why I dont consider this forum to be accurate or even a relevant source of information for anyone is because I read it [b:fe76093227]before[/b:fe76093227] I joined the cult, which was August 2005. There was nothing here then but a little sugguestion of homophobia which is nothing considering that the official version of Homosexuality : An Identity Crisis (which I also read via a link) isnt a true reflection of CB's [u:fe76093227]actual [/u:fe76093227]teachings about homosexuals or an indication of the massive hate campaign he has orchestrated. All religions and I have seen most of them up close condemn homosexuality. Personally I do not, but then I dont consider myself a spiritual authority either, hence the seeking of a guru. Guru owned a few businesses, but the official version of that was sellable, doing anything costs money and it seemed an ethical enough business. So I dont want to wave away anyones self righteous or proprietary haze but you had all the experience of CB you were ever going to get then and your telling of it amounted to pffffft. You actually sold at least one person in instead of out and people are still joining today.

People do not respect internet forums as reliable sources of information because they dont know who the people are, you may as well walk up to a busstop to ask an opinion and who does that? This thread is good because I made it good and anyone who doubts that can go back before I came along and it was only 30 pages in three times the amount of existence since I did. Whoops I seem to have forgotten all about lower than the straw in the street - well fuck my critics I [b:fe76093227]am[/b:fe76093227] fabulous. I know that noone else has done jackshit because I have seen first hand what happens when you do and how even a blog can upset the great and powerful Oz. I am being a bitch not because my life has been turned upside down, although it has, but because I couldnt sleep at night from thinking about those people that are being held in that cult, especially the children. Gandhi said "Be the change that you want in the world" While Baez said "Action is the antidote to despair" I dont know who said that all it takes for evil to prosper is for good men to let it, and yes Zelig in that instance then the ex followers are all [u:fe76093227]veeeery good [/u:fe76093227]arent they? People go on with their lives and why not, that is their perogative, but that vetos your right on the ground of simple decency and logic to criticise how you could've, would've, should've done it but [u:fe76093227]didnt[/u:fe76093227].

In the case of cult awareness information is of course the hottest commodity. As Alex Jones well knows the battle is fought and lost by control of information and awareness and through this the future history of action is written. As it is Science of Identity is one of the most widely spread and destructive cults that there is and all of the cult experts missed it. That is not a criticism since it is easy enough to do and there is certainly no shortage of prominent cults to occupy anyones time but here in this carefully constructed Wikipedia of the forum on this site we have no shortage of editors who are damn determined that you think otherwise. Nevermind reading between the lines, read between the posts. Most of the "information" here is just cult propoganda.

Shanti, I am sure that your life was full enough with what you went through, kids to look after and a broken heart. Loving the wrong guy can certainly change your life. What sort of A*hole leaves his pregnant partner in the name of becoming a better person? The men there even if they did get out will never know what that is like or what women put up with fullstop.

The KC movement was nothing but a burgeious social experiment poo-pooing hedonism while being the epitome of it. What is more hedonistic than just sitting in a corner and chanting for your own salvation, tripping on LSD rolling up another joint and subjugating women in a sick parody of family values rather than actually being useful and constructive members of society? Of course there were a lot of artists and musicians and save the trees - what there wasnt was a lot of doctors or firemen or social workers. Even food for life wasnt out of concern for people that were hungry but wanting to shovel prashadam into people so that they would join Krishna's Army. The musicianship was to get people chanting, the art was to get people to look at Krishna and the environmentalism was to jump on the fad of the day to be real cool man - there was a twenty year war going on, black people were still second class citizens and gay people were treated like garbage but Krishna wanted his trees and the good ol chanting boys had more repect for an egg than they did for their fellow human beings.

Chris Butler's album is [u:a6898de30b][b:a6898de30b]atrocious shit[/b:a6898de30b][/u:a6898de30b][/color:a6898de30b]by the way. In the era of the best music ever - The Doors, The Beatles, John and George's solo stuff, Led Zepplin, David Bowie, The Rolling Stones etc etc the direct link to gawd couldnt even carry a tune in a bucket. What was the point of Dear Fanatic - to start a new trend of (toe-the) line dancing? Is that wtf Wai Lana is doing at the end of her videos?

Don't get your knickers in a knot, lovely creatures! Zelig has made many worthywhile, researched and intelligent contributions here, so give credit where its due.

If you babes gang up on him down there on shady Maple Street, he might not post anymore, then you will only have yourselves to agree with.

Respect other peoples opinions, even if they aren't the same as yours.

I always have time to read his posts, a fine and imaginative intellect there, and he is no "git".

You can't accuse others of being draconian, when you stomp a bit harder than necessary! Tap away, but don't ground your five-inch stilettos all the way in!

Maybe you should say sorry to him for saying "fuck off". That wasn't very nice, was it?

One of the best posts I have read from Bond Girl:

"The KC movement was nothing but a burgeious social experiment poo-pooing hedonism while being the epitome of it. What is more hedonistic than just sitting in a corner and chanting for your own salvation, tripping on LSD rolling up another joint and subjugating women in a sick parody of family values rather than actually being useful and constructive members of society? Of course there were a lot of artists and musicians and save the trees - what there wasnt was a lot of doctors or firemen or social workers. Even food for life wasnt out of concern for people that were hungry but wanting to shovel prashadam into people so that they would join Krishna's Army. The musicianship was to get people chanting, the art was to get people to look at Krishna and the environmentalism was to jump on the fad of the day to be real cool man - there was a twenty year war going on, black people were still second class citizens and gay people were treated like garbage but Krishna wanted his trees and the good ol chanting boys had more repect for an egg than they did for their fellow human beings."

aka self serving hippy shite. They served themselves up on vege food, treated women like disposable crud or consumable flesh to suit their own agenda and desires, danced the night away to the drums, chanting the days of their lives away to be first in line to sport some more in that supreme place of "enjoyment" called Goloka Vrndavana when they were just plain lazy ass never made it in society 4th raters, musicians, hippies, surfers and drop outs.

It just wasn't cool man to be do some real life schlepping like fight for equal rights, and liberate the oppressed, pay any attention to the "meek" (that was for uneducated waaaay down on the spiritual ladder Jesus people) or do social work, after all their "in the dark" fellow men were just karmi dog shite, let them pick up and engineer the pieces of social justice: "Lazy Ass Pure Hedonism and Enjoyment" dressed up, packaged and sold as "Advanced Spirituality" with a surfboard thrown in.

"Chris Butler's album is atrocious shitby the way. In the era of the best music ever - The Doors, The Beatles, John and George's solo stuff, Led Zepplin, David Bowie, The Rolling Stones etc etc the direct link to gawd couldnt even carry a tune in a bucket. What was the point of Dear Fanatic - to start a new trend of (toe-the) line dancing? Is that wtf Wai Lana is doing at the end of her videos?"

Yes, jump on the band wagon unoriginal, not so inspired, hardly creative, copy the riff, just like the rest of the groovy cat ninja and hip hop stuff. But what the hell, it's at least a bit of a try, what?

Not to say these lazy self serving hypocritical asses don't have potential, they just need to work their act up a bit and start paying more attention to the real word of the holy books i.e. teaching, living and practising the true word of God.

Hey Shanti. I was shocked to read of your awful experiences with Jivan. I had met him once and it's true, he is revered as a Christian scholar among the devotees. Last I heard he was running a full-on brahmachari program in Sacramento.

Also I recall a certain chanting tape that was banned because there was a chant on it performed by Jivan accompanied by a woman who apparently had been offensive to JG. As memory serves I think it was a real nice rendition of Madonna Mohana Murari. Sound familiar?

I just heard that JG has a new book out that attributes the root cause of all environmental issues to meat-eating. I guess he is trying to put his spin on the global warming issue that is gaining popularity due in part to the work of people like Al Gore. A politician. Hmmmmm.

In JGs lectures he often mentions that the true gurus and acaryas lead by example. Well look at the example he is setting. No wonder things are a mess with SOI. I aspire to be rude, angry, deceptive, condescending, paranoid, etc. ad infinitum, just like my guru. Jaya SP!!

By the way, far be it from us to question the confidential loving servant of Krishna. All of the service that his devotees engage in are to help JG is his mission to give people Krishna. The devotees actually believe this.

Boy I worked on some projects that really were pure business and I felt no transcendental benefit at all. Now I know why. I feel sorry for the devotees who give almost all of their time and energy to him and for what. Where will it lead them? What benefit will they derive from their sacrifice? Have they been misled? Has all that time and energy been misplaced?

We all have experienced that many devotees are some of the most stressed-out, and fearful, people on the planet. Is this spiritual life?

No this is cult life. ACB refers to the cult of devotional service in his purports to the BG more than once.

I have always thought that if you want to be a monk, or a nun, or a sadhu, or whatever, it has to be by your willing choice and be what makes you happy and feel good about yourself. It seems to me that followers of JG are forced to live a certain way and any opposition that one may feel is due to the fact that one is fallen and impure and needs to serve more to overcome this. A classic double bind.

I came into this group suffering from the disease of feeling less than and the process of bhakti yoga as taught by JG only served to exacerbate this feeling. This is not spiritual life. This is not what God intended for me or anyone else. I do not feel that JG is a representative of God.

And I thank God for this. I get to have a new beginning. I hope others will be able to remove the blinders as well.

I wish us all peace and joy.

A little comic relief here, or is it evidence of a completely braindead cult zombie?

Now you know where all your donations to Chris Butler end up...
He just throws thousands and thousands of dollars at his simpleton wife who he, for some reason thinks is fucking brilliant.

This MUST be the biggest disaster in the history of television production while simultaneously being the funniest thing anyone who has stumbled upon it has ever witnessed.

This "woman" has dance moves straight out of "Barney", "Playschool" or "Teletubbies".

And the outfits are so hideous and asexual, she might as well just wear a potato sack... oh yeah, wouldn't want to show any wrist or elbow.

Anyways, I laughed my ass off, so I guess I should be gratefull.

[www.youtube.com]

[www.youtube.com]

I am sure this post will tack at least another 6 to 12 months to the silent treatment my family are ordered to give me.
Fuckin' sellouts. You make me sick.
NOW you are beyond a doubt TRULY PATHETIC, you can't even talk to me YOU SICK FUCKS!
WORTHLESS PATHETIC you should have NEVER HAD CHILDREN, YOU FUCKING SCUMBAGS!

Yes, I am talking straight at you, ROBIN RANSON and ALAN RANSON, you are SICK JOKES.

Grow up, be a man, be a woman, you can have a relationship with your own kid despite intellectual differences.
I don't care what the fuck you do with your lives, I have no investment in you staying devoted to this pile of shit or not, you need to seperate my words and intentions from the interpretations of them by your sick control freak handlers.

You think you are saving yourselves with your position and co-opted decision. Fucking bullshit. You are absolutely destroying your own integrity, you don't dare utter a word of the reality of the situation to my grandparents who really know whats up and would talk some fucking sense into you.
All you do is run from it and ignore it.
You will truly suffer from your hideous actions.

Run and tell that, SoI spooks, you are slimy worms. get a real life and tell Chris Butler to do us all a favor and end his parasitic existence.

Chris Butler is a leech, a parasite sucking off the minds, the money and the hopes and dreams of the ones who have fallen under his spell. Black magic, indeed.

Look at yourselves. You are but a fraction of what you could and should be.
You have been reduced to little more than a few scraps of a sentient being, rigged up to the communal breathing apparatus and dollied about on a makeshift gurney as you hack the limbs and minds from your young to be sacrificed on the alter of Butler and to the farce of Krishna.

Stand on your own two feet once again.