Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: February 25, 2008 05:39AM
Quote
The Anticult
Yes, The Guruphiliac blog is bending over backwards, forwards, and sideways to try and rationalize what is going on with Byron Katie.
Is the Guruphiliac blog allowing all comments, or only approved comments?
Is there a conflict of interest there between Guruphiliac and Byron Katie?
Who is it that The Guruphiliac is able to instantly call up on the phone and get this wonderful information from?
Only approved comments are allowed there.
Sure does seem to be a conflict of interest between Guruphiliac and BK.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
jj52
()
Date: February 25, 2008 09:32AM
Guruphiliacs blog was really disappointing. Definitely a conflict of interest going on there.
I'd like to take some time to post my response to all this "voluntary" stuff. I think Anticult said it best. It's just part of the game, but it amazes me that this is the point that is repeatedly brought up to try to prove that Byron Katie's School for the Work is not an LGAT "cult." It's part of the deception, and it obviously works wonders for BK.
Guruphiliac apparently missed my argument with ralpher, so I'm going to take some time to clarify a few things. I said "A forced 36 hour fast" and Eduardo and company say "voluntary". I say it's all the same thing.
First, I want to clarify this: The Work (the 4 questions) unquestionably have some merit. I, too, was helped by Inquiry when it was applied to actual projections and misperceptions that I had. At first, The Work was blessing. And, that is why I attended The School despite my misgivings about BK's sanity. I wanted to know if I was missing something... if there was more... if she was just a wacko. Her website was different then, and the information that it offered about The School was very limited. It promised participants that they would be taken through the same process that BK went through to get to where she is.
(At no time in The School were we required to sleep on the floor, and I don't recall any cockroaches... so I think it's safe to say we did not experience that moment of "transcendence" that she had. Thank goodness!)
I did learn some valuable tools at The School, like assertiveness skills. However, I don't think it was necessary to participate in an LGAT to learn those. In fact, I've learned more effective assertiveness skills elsewhere. I did learn to own my projections, and again, I could have learned that elsewhere. BK does not have a monopoly on simple psychology. Because of the Thought Reform program going on there, I probably learned these things much faster than I would have in a less controlled environment. The bombardment of information had a negative side effects in the long run. It would have been better to learn these things more slowly.
So, Eduardo... I understand that you've experienced positive results from The Work and The School. There is no argument about that. I'm sure that people who've been to other LGATs have also experienced positive results from the trainings, as well. No one is questioning that, so your testimony here is rather off-topic. Very diverting, too. The question here is whether or not Byron Katie is a legitimate spiritual teacher or a fraud? The question is whether or not there are negative side-effects to participating? Will this hurt people? The answer is a resounding YES.
A legitimate spiritual teacher does not need to use Thought Reform, manipulation, and skillful marketing to gain followers. So is she legitimate? The answer is NO.
The fast at The School was forced. Regular participants were instructed to eat nothing but the organic food from the kitchen. Most of us had turned in any other food we had with our cell phones. The morning the fast began, we were surprised by empty serving tables. There was nothing but a sign reading "Who would you be without your story?" No meals or food were served to us the rest of the day, or the next morning. The next evening we were given supper.
Sure, we were told it was "voluntary." Then, there was about an hour or so where people stood up to express their concerns and complaints. As they did, BK did The Work with them, and had them question all of their misgivings about fasting. We were told repeatedly that "their work is your work" and to "go inside" of ourselves and apply what was happening to us. This went on until we were compliant. We did not "voluntarily" fast. We didn't even know it was coming!
There was a restaurant in the hotel, and anyone could go purchase food there if they didn't want to fast. However, it was made very clear that doing so was a failure to "do your School". Eating was a breach of two important rules: fasting for purification and eating organic the entire 9 days. BK personally stressed to us the importance of both. The message was given very clearly that if we did not fast, we would not "get what we came for."
So, we basically had two choices: Fast, or fail.
Also, when the fast began, there was no indication of how long it was going to continue. This was a question that Byron Katie would not answer, and again instructed those who asked to question their thoughts. "The worst thing that could happen is a thought," she said. (Actually, passing out on the streets of LA while begging for food the next day might have been worse than all of our thoughts combined.) We did not know how long the fast would be, and therefore did not make an informed choice to fast for X amount of hours. How voluntary is that?
Although I am willing to acknowledge that there were positive things at The School, I do not believe that those should overshadow or invalidate the negative things at The School, which are more weighty and longer lasting. The positive aspects are fleeting. The only way to maintain "bliss" is to keep going, and to keep giving BK your money. How convenient.
It was undoubtedly an environment of Thought Reform.
I can't understand how anyone, even Byron Katie herself, could possibly deny this. After all, isn't that what The Work is all about? Reforming one's thoughts?
Had someone educated us on Thought Reform and the lasting effects it can have on a person BEFORE we handed our minds over to BK, I wonder how many people would actually attend The School? Since we were not told what this might do to us... how "voluntary" was it, really?
We were promised "Heaven", but The School for the Work is hell in a clever disguise.
I seriously doubt I would have attended if someone had said to me, "By attending this School, you will lose your sense of self, and your ability to trust yourself. You will learn to constantly question your thoughts, and feel that nothing is real. You will lose your sense of personal boundaries, and have BK's solipsism drilled into your head for days on end, until you doubt your own religious beliefs. You will become a missionary, searching out other people to bring into BK's fold. You will be out thousands of dollars, and have nothing to show for it. Your deepest traumas will be triggered and brought to the surface. Then, you will be left to your own volition (and The Work) to try to sort through them. You will become dependent on BK for guidance. You will lose your ability to communicate with and relate to the general population. You will come to see yourself as nothing."
"And, if you really do your School well, you will become convinced that you like what has happened to you."
Since no one told me that prior to my decision to attend, I will not accept that everything was "voluntary." I did not choose that. Instead, I was told that I would find "the only way to God" and the "end of suffering."
That is the biggest lie ever told.
Guruphilliac, Eduardo... I invite you to take this into consideration. But of course, it's totally voluntary.
-jj
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2008 10:01AM by jj52.
I'd like to take some time to post my response to all this "voluntary" stuff. I think Anticult said it best. It's just part of the game, but it amazes me that this is the point that is repeatedly brought up to try to prove that Byron Katie's School for the Work is not an LGAT "cult." It's part of the deception, and it obviously works wonders for BK.
Guruphiliac apparently missed my argument with ralpher, so I'm going to take some time to clarify a few things. I said "A forced 36 hour fast" and Eduardo and company say "voluntary". I say it's all the same thing.
First, I want to clarify this: The Work (the 4 questions) unquestionably have some merit. I, too, was helped by Inquiry when it was applied to actual projections and misperceptions that I had. At first, The Work was blessing. And, that is why I attended The School despite my misgivings about BK's sanity. I wanted to know if I was missing something... if there was more... if she was just a wacko. Her website was different then, and the information that it offered about The School was very limited. It promised participants that they would be taken through the same process that BK went through to get to where she is.
(At no time in The School were we required to sleep on the floor, and I don't recall any cockroaches... so I think it's safe to say we did not experience that moment of "transcendence" that she had. Thank goodness!)
I did learn some valuable tools at The School, like assertiveness skills. However, I don't think it was necessary to participate in an LGAT to learn those. In fact, I've learned more effective assertiveness skills elsewhere. I did learn to own my projections, and again, I could have learned that elsewhere. BK does not have a monopoly on simple psychology. Because of the Thought Reform program going on there, I probably learned these things much faster than I would have in a less controlled environment. The bombardment of information had a negative side effects in the long run. It would have been better to learn these things more slowly.
So, Eduardo... I understand that you've experienced positive results from The Work and The School. There is no argument about that. I'm sure that people who've been to other LGATs have also experienced positive results from the trainings, as well. No one is questioning that, so your testimony here is rather off-topic. Very diverting, too. The question here is whether or not Byron Katie is a legitimate spiritual teacher or a fraud? The question is whether or not there are negative side-effects to participating? Will this hurt people? The answer is a resounding YES.
A legitimate spiritual teacher does not need to use Thought Reform, manipulation, and skillful marketing to gain followers. So is she legitimate? The answer is NO.
The fast at The School was forced. Regular participants were instructed to eat nothing but the organic food from the kitchen. Most of us had turned in any other food we had with our cell phones. The morning the fast began, we were surprised by empty serving tables. There was nothing but a sign reading "Who would you be without your story?" No meals or food were served to us the rest of the day, or the next morning. The next evening we were given supper.
Sure, we were told it was "voluntary." Then, there was about an hour or so where people stood up to express their concerns and complaints. As they did, BK did The Work with them, and had them question all of their misgivings about fasting. We were told repeatedly that "their work is your work" and to "go inside" of ourselves and apply what was happening to us. This went on until we were compliant. We did not "voluntarily" fast. We didn't even know it was coming!
There was a restaurant in the hotel, and anyone could go purchase food there if they didn't want to fast. However, it was made very clear that doing so was a failure to "do your School". Eating was a breach of two important rules: fasting for purification and eating organic the entire 9 days. BK personally stressed to us the importance of both. The message was given very clearly that if we did not fast, we would not "get what we came for."
So, we basically had two choices: Fast, or fail.
Also, when the fast began, there was no indication of how long it was going to continue. This was a question that Byron Katie would not answer, and again instructed those who asked to question their thoughts. "The worst thing that could happen is a thought," she said. (Actually, passing out on the streets of LA while begging for food the next day might have been worse than all of our thoughts combined.) We did not know how long the fast would be, and therefore did not make an informed choice to fast for X amount of hours. How voluntary is that?
Although I am willing to acknowledge that there were positive things at The School, I do not believe that those should overshadow or invalidate the negative things at The School, which are more weighty and longer lasting. The positive aspects are fleeting. The only way to maintain "bliss" is to keep going, and to keep giving BK your money. How convenient.
It was undoubtedly an environment of Thought Reform.
I can't understand how anyone, even Byron Katie herself, could possibly deny this. After all, isn't that what The Work is all about? Reforming one's thoughts?
Had someone educated us on Thought Reform and the lasting effects it can have on a person BEFORE we handed our minds over to BK, I wonder how many people would actually attend The School? Since we were not told what this might do to us... how "voluntary" was it, really?
We were promised "Heaven", but The School for the Work is hell in a clever disguise.
I seriously doubt I would have attended if someone had said to me, "By attending this School, you will lose your sense of self, and your ability to trust yourself. You will learn to constantly question your thoughts, and feel that nothing is real. You will lose your sense of personal boundaries, and have BK's solipsism drilled into your head for days on end, until you doubt your own religious beliefs. You will become a missionary, searching out other people to bring into BK's fold. You will be out thousands of dollars, and have nothing to show for it. Your deepest traumas will be triggered and brought to the surface. Then, you will be left to your own volition (and The Work) to try to sort through them. You will become dependent on BK for guidance. You will lose your ability to communicate with and relate to the general population. You will come to see yourself as nothing."
"And, if you really do your School well, you will become convinced that you like what has happened to you."
Since no one told me that prior to my decision to attend, I will not accept that everything was "voluntary." I did not choose that. Instead, I was told that I would find "the only way to God" and the "end of suffering."
That is the biggest lie ever told.
Guruphilliac, Eduardo... I invite you to take this into consideration. But of course, it's totally voluntary.
-jj
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2008 10:01AM by jj52.
Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 25, 2008 02:21PM
The alleged Guruphiliac, Jody, has made a response about Byron Katie, and it is quite ugly.
Comment #15
[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]
Guruphiliac's conclusion...
BLAME THE VICTIM...of organized systematic thought reform that is founded on extreme deception and manipulation.
This guy is supposed to have something to say about these issues?
The best he's got is BLAME THE VICTIM?
Blame people who are suggestible for getting hit with 100+ thought reform techniques at once?
Is this guy for real?
He begins with Ad Hominem to deflect from the real issues, calling the criticism from irrational anti-cultists. Good start.
He the Guruphiliac goes into a Werner Erhard impersonation:
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do. If you believe you were helped by it, you were."
That is one of the most sociopathic, ridiculous and irresponsible things I have read in a long time. Werner Erhard would love it, it means you can do anything to anyone without a conscience, as long as you make a lot of money off it. Sweet.
Its also means there is no such thing as facts, truth, or reality. Convenient.
Guruphiliac then uses DEFLECTION. He ignores the $100,000 peer-pressure gifting, and only focusses on one aspect, the entrance fee. That is just the HOOK dude, that ain't even the fish! Does he not even know that, or is he pretending not to know that? (pretending, of course).
He says it costs a lot to host the event? FALSE. She doesn't pay a staff! It costs peanuts to rent a hall, compared to those fees.
Does this guy do any research whatsoever? Or just shill for his friends?
Then he says, its not Byron Katie's fault for ripping people off using Thought Reform, its the VICTIMS fault. Again, with blame the victim. This guy gives advice to people? Are you kidding?
Does he also agree with Byron Katie that child-rape is caused by the child?
He then ignores all the real issues again and says..."But as long as nobody is getting hurt, outside a dinged bank account and the derision of ignorant family members".
See how he turned it around?
Its the IGNORANT FAMILY MEMBERS who are at fault, and the IGNORANT victims.
Isolate them MORE from their family, the family is ignorant and evil, not the Guru.
Yes, we "get it" Guruphiliac Jody. Your message between the lines is loud and clear.
Information has come out that Guruphiliac's "friend" he talked to about Byron Katie, who works for Byron Katie, is Steven Sashen.
Is that true or false? Why no clarification from either of them? Is this being concealed?
[forum.culteducation.com]
Steven Sashen is referenced at least 25 times on the Guruphiliac blog
[www.google.com]
Is there a business relationship there?
Are people ever referred to Byron Katie seminars by any "close friends" of the Guruphiliac blog?
For a guy who is supposed to know something about Gurus, that is one of the most irresponsible, arrogant, dismissive, selective rants I have seen in quite some time.
It does beg the question...there are Cult Apologists, how about Guru Apologists?
Do certain Gurus make deal's with various supposed Guru-Busters, to attack the competition Guru's, but go easy one one's friends and associates Gravy Train Guru's?
Because Byron Katie is a big Gravy Train Guru, and Guruphiliac Jody is a close friend by his own admission of his Byron Katie contact, and that person is alleged to be Steven Sashen. (yet to be confirmed or denied).
Why not cut the distortion fog and deception guys, and just put the cards on the table?
Life doesn't always have to be cloak and dagger.
But I guess if one believes like the Guruphiliac...
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do."...
Then you can do whatever you want to anyone as long as you can get away with it!
I can't speak for the rest of the Guruphiliac blog entries, but this one is an unadulterated SHAM.
Guruphiliac shares the Byron Katie sociopathic belief that there is no such thing as reality, and victims are asking for it and get what they deserve.
I give Guruphiliac an F in Guru-Busting, and an A+ in selective Guru-Apologia.
Comment #15
[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]
Guruphiliac's conclusion...
BLAME THE VICTIM...of organized systematic thought reform that is founded on extreme deception and manipulation.
This guy is supposed to have something to say about these issues?
The best he's got is BLAME THE VICTIM?
Blame people who are suggestible for getting hit with 100+ thought reform techniques at once?
Is this guy for real?
He begins with Ad Hominem to deflect from the real issues, calling the criticism from irrational anti-cultists. Good start.
He the Guruphiliac goes into a Werner Erhard impersonation:
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do. If you believe you were helped by it, you were."
That is one of the most sociopathic, ridiculous and irresponsible things I have read in a long time. Werner Erhard would love it, it means you can do anything to anyone without a conscience, as long as you make a lot of money off it. Sweet.
Its also means there is no such thing as facts, truth, or reality. Convenient.
Guruphiliac then uses DEFLECTION. He ignores the $100,000 peer-pressure gifting, and only focusses on one aspect, the entrance fee. That is just the HOOK dude, that ain't even the fish! Does he not even know that, or is he pretending not to know that? (pretending, of course).
He says it costs a lot to host the event? FALSE. She doesn't pay a staff! It costs peanuts to rent a hall, compared to those fees.
Does this guy do any research whatsoever? Or just shill for his friends?
Then he says, its not Byron Katie's fault for ripping people off using Thought Reform, its the VICTIMS fault. Again, with blame the victim. This guy gives advice to people? Are you kidding?
Does he also agree with Byron Katie that child-rape is caused by the child?
He then ignores all the real issues again and says..."But as long as nobody is getting hurt, outside a dinged bank account and the derision of ignorant family members".
See how he turned it around?
Its the IGNORANT FAMILY MEMBERS who are at fault, and the IGNORANT victims.
Isolate them MORE from their family, the family is ignorant and evil, not the Guru.
Yes, we "get it" Guruphiliac Jody. Your message between the lines is loud and clear.
Information has come out that Guruphiliac's "friend" he talked to about Byron Katie, who works for Byron Katie, is Steven Sashen.
Is that true or false? Why no clarification from either of them? Is this being concealed?
[forum.culteducation.com]
Steven Sashen is referenced at least 25 times on the Guruphiliac blog
[www.google.com]
Is there a business relationship there?
Are people ever referred to Byron Katie seminars by any "close friends" of the Guruphiliac blog?
For a guy who is supposed to know something about Gurus, that is one of the most irresponsible, arrogant, dismissive, selective rants I have seen in quite some time.
It does beg the question...there are Cult Apologists, how about Guru Apologists?
Do certain Gurus make deal's with various supposed Guru-Busters, to attack the competition Guru's, but go easy one one's friends and associates Gravy Train Guru's?
Because Byron Katie is a big Gravy Train Guru, and Guruphiliac Jody is a close friend by his own admission of his Byron Katie contact, and that person is alleged to be Steven Sashen. (yet to be confirmed or denied).
Why not cut the distortion fog and deception guys, and just put the cards on the table?
Life doesn't always have to be cloak and dagger.
But I guess if one believes like the Guruphiliac...
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do."...
Then you can do whatever you want to anyone as long as you can get away with it!
I can't speak for the rest of the Guruphiliac blog entries, but this one is an unadulterated SHAM.
Guruphiliac shares the Byron Katie sociopathic belief that there is no such thing as reality, and victims are asking for it and get what they deserve.
I give Guruphiliac an F in Guru-Busting, and an A+ in selective Guru-Apologia.
Re: Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: February 25, 2008 03:47PM
Lordy lordy, its a weird weird world. Did a little searching around about the Guruphiliac, who's name apparently is Jody Radzik.
There are a few sites dedicated against him, one of them run by the Sai Baba followers for going after Sai Baba. Then there are endless extreme accusations of every sort on some other blog which is against him.
This is a general Google search for Guruphiliac...(don't waste your time on this craziness, is my 2 cents!)
[www.google.com]
It would take quite a lot of effort to sort the wheat from the chaff, from the propaganda and counter-propaganda.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in the middle...Guruphiliac being Anti-Guru in general, with exceptions in the case of personal and vested interests, and possibly some hidden interests, perhaps personal financial interests?
TBD. To Be Determined.
To me the take away lesson seems to be this.
There are a lot of people out there, who seem to enjoy fooling around with "Reality Distortion".
They seem to literally get-off on putting up smokescreens, and deflecting from objective facts, and acting as if "there is no reality" other than the smokescreen they can make you believe.
Its seems to be a mind-game power-trip for some, and a serious money-maker for others.
I think we need to learn how to spot these people, identify what they are doing, and not get sucked into it.
Fortunately, if we carefully use some basic mental tools, we can sort through the mess.
As mentioned, I find fantastic use in Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit.
[users.tpg.com.au]
If you run what Guruphiliac has said so far about the Byron Katie LGAT machine through the Baloney Detector...the BS meter flies off the hook.
At least on this subject of Byron Katie and LGAT's, Guruphiliac is much worse than useless.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2008 03:52PM by The Anticult.
There are a few sites dedicated against him, one of them run by the Sai Baba followers for going after Sai Baba. Then there are endless extreme accusations of every sort on some other blog which is against him.
This is a general Google search for Guruphiliac...(don't waste your time on this craziness, is my 2 cents!)
[www.google.com]
It would take quite a lot of effort to sort the wheat from the chaff, from the propaganda and counter-propaganda.
Maybe the reality is somewhere in the middle...Guruphiliac being Anti-Guru in general, with exceptions in the case of personal and vested interests, and possibly some hidden interests, perhaps personal financial interests?
TBD. To Be Determined.
To me the take away lesson seems to be this.
There are a lot of people out there, who seem to enjoy fooling around with "Reality Distortion".
They seem to literally get-off on putting up smokescreens, and deflecting from objective facts, and acting as if "there is no reality" other than the smokescreen they can make you believe.
Its seems to be a mind-game power-trip for some, and a serious money-maker for others.
I think we need to learn how to spot these people, identify what they are doing, and not get sucked into it.
Fortunately, if we carefully use some basic mental tools, we can sort through the mess.
As mentioned, I find fantastic use in Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit.
[users.tpg.com.au]
If you run what Guruphiliac has said so far about the Byron Katie LGAT machine through the Baloney Detector...the BS meter flies off the hook.
At least on this subject of Byron Katie and LGAT's, Guruphiliac is much worse than useless.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/25/2008 03:52PM by The Anticult.
Re: Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: February 25, 2008 08:23PM
Quote
The Anticult
The alleged Guruphiliac, Jody, has made a response about Byron Katie, and it is quite ugly.
Comment #15
[guruphiliac.blogspot.com]
Guruphiliac's conclusion...
BLAME THE VICTIM...of organized systematic thought reform that is founded on extreme deception and manipulation.
This guy is supposed to have something to say about these issues?
The best he's got is BLAME THE VICTIM?
Blame people who are suggestible for getting hit with 100+ thought reform techniques at once?
Is this guy for real?
He begins with Ad Hominem to deflect from the real issues, calling the criticism from irrational anti-cultists. Good start.
He the Guruphiliac goes into a Werner Erhard impersonation:
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do. If you believe you were helped by it, you were."
That is one of the most sociopathic, ridiculous and irresponsible things I have read in a long time. Werner Erhard would love it, it means you can do anything to anyone without a conscience, as long as you make a lot of money off it. Sweet.
Its also means there is no such thing as facts, truth, or reality. Convenient.
Guruphiliac then uses DEFLECTION. He ignores the $100,000 peer-pressure gifting, and only focusses on one aspect, the entrance fee. That is just the HOOK dude, that ain't even the fish! Does he not even know that, or is he pretending not to know that? (pretending, of course).
He says it costs a lot to host the event? FALSE. She doesn't pay a staff! It costs peanuts to rent a hall, compared to those fees.
Does this guy do any research whatsoever? Or just shill for his friends?
Then he says, its not Byron Katie's fault for ripping people off using Thought Reform, its the VICTIMS fault. Again, with blame the victim. This guy gives advice to people? Are you kidding?
Does he also agree with Byron Katie that child-rape is caused by the child?
He then ignores all the real issues again and says..."But as long as nobody is getting hurt, outside a dinged bank account and the derision of ignorant family members".
See how he turned it around?
Its the IGNORANT FAMILY MEMBERS who are at fault, and the IGNORANT victims.
Isolate them MORE from their family, the family is ignorant and evil, not the Guru.
Yes, we "get it" Guruphiliac Jody. Your message between the lines is loud and clear.
Information has come out that Guruphiliac's "friend" he talked to about Byron Katie, who works for Byron Katie, is Steven Sashen.
Is that true or false? Why no clarification from either of them? Is this being concealed?
[forum.culteducation.com]
Steven Sashen is referenced at least 25 times on the Guruphiliac blog
[www.google.com]
Is there a business relationship there?
Are people ever referred to Byron Katie seminars by any "close friends" of the Guruphiliac blog?
For a guy who is supposed to know something about Gurus, that is one of the most irresponsible, arrogant, dismissive, selective rants I have seen in quite some time.
It does beg the question...there are Cult Apologists, how about Guru Apologists?
Do certain Gurus make deal's with various supposed Guru-Busters, to attack the competition Guru's, but go easy one one's friends and associates Gravy Train Guru's?
Because Byron Katie is a big Gravy Train Guru, and Guruphiliac Jody is a close friend by his own admission of his Byron Katie contact, and that person is alleged to be Steven Sashen. (yet to be confirmed or denied).
Why not cut the distortion fog and deception guys, and just put the cards on the table?
Life doesn't always have to be cloak and dagger.
But I guess if one believes like the Guruphiliac...
"It doesn't matter how much it costs, it doesn't matter what they tell you, it doesn't matter what they tell you to do."...
Then you can do whatever you want to anyone as long as you can get away with it!
I can't speak for the rest of the Guruphiliac blog entries, but this one is an unadulterated SHAM.
Guruphiliac shares the Byron Katie sociopathic belief that there is no such thing as reality, and victims are asking for it and get what they deserve.
I give Guruphiliac an F in Guru-Busting, and an A+ in selective Guru-Apologia.
Holy crap. I'm nowhere near as familiar with cultist tactics as you, Anticult, so thanks a bunch for this scary assessment of an alleged guru buster.
Guess what? BK apologizer Steven Sashen runs his own Anti-Guru Blog. In his intro he says:
Quote
Why is this the "Anti-Guru" blog? It doesn't mean that I have some dislike or aversion to gurus (though, I'll admit, I'm more than a bit suspicious of a few). Besides, some of my best friends are in the guru business (seriously!). What I'm saying, in a way that's hopefully a bit provocative, is this:
First, this site is about discovering how to look to yourself for the answers you seek. Or, at the very least, how to see more clearly when you're looking out at teachers or teachings that promise answers to your questions. In fact, maybe seeing clearly what's "out there" is the easiest way to discover what's "in here."
And, second, I am not interested in becoming a guru myself. It's too awkward to have brunch with your "students" -- let alone "disciples" -- when they attribute magical qualities to you (qualities your spouse may not agree you possess). And I really like having brunch with people.
What follows is, simply, my favorite conversation. I hope you enjoy it. And if you think you benefit from it in some way, that's okay too ;-).
Is he for reals? He admits some of his best friends are in the "guru business". (Does that include Byron Katie and hubby Stephen Mitchell?) He protests against any possibility of wanting guru status for himself yet advertises products like "Advanced Meditation" and "Quantum Wealth".
From a look at his blog entries, he doesn't even take on any gurus. Unless you consider Buddha, Santa Claus, or Oprah to be deceptive gurus.
Seriously.
Okay, maybe Oprah...
With folks like Jody Guruphiliac and Steven Sashen "helping" us out, I'd say it's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine... now someone pass me the Kool-Aid.
Re: Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
helpme2times
()
Date: February 25, 2008 11:07PM
Just found this re Jody/Guruphiliac: Blog Critical of Guruphiliac Blog
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: February 25, 2008 11:44PM
1) "But my oh my... just ask a few questions of the "guru" and people get quite
prickly.
"So when I pose questions about her facelift, why does this provoke
answers like, "Ah leave her alone. Stop picking on her. Maybe
you're the one with unresolved issues..."
"Stop picking on her".
Folks, there is a double standard that one sees again and yet again whenever someone is set up as an infallible person--and as a recipient for all the idealized projections of a group.
Only the guru's suffering is considered real. Only the guru's suffering is considered worth of compassion.
If any us report that we are suffering or in misfortune, we are told our pain is illusory--or shame rhetoric is directed only at us, the nonpowerholders, and we are told, 'Dont wallow in victim mentality' or 'There are no victims, only volunteers.'
But when a guru complains of hardship or of being persecuted, no one ever tells the guru, 'Dont wallow in victim mentality.'
Nope.
In these undiscussed power imbalances, only the powerholder's suffering is considered worthy of compassion, and only the powerholder's suffering is considered real.
A thought question: would BK's material seem as interesting without her narrative of being on the floor with the cockroaches?
She reportedly tells people to get out of their own stories, but her personal narrative is part of what makes so many hope for healing in the first place.
2) "Have there been other cases where large groups of people had their food tampered with?"
A wee tip: Google 'rajneesh' and 'salmonella'
Disclaimer: this is NOT to say anyone is doing this today, but that it has been done in the past.
prickly.
"So when I pose questions about her facelift, why does this provoke
answers like, "Ah leave her alone. Stop picking on her. Maybe
you're the one with unresolved issues..."
"Stop picking on her".
Folks, there is a double standard that one sees again and yet again whenever someone is set up as an infallible person--and as a recipient for all the idealized projections of a group.
Only the guru's suffering is considered real. Only the guru's suffering is considered worth of compassion.
If any us report that we are suffering or in misfortune, we are told our pain is illusory--or shame rhetoric is directed only at us, the nonpowerholders, and we are told, 'Dont wallow in victim mentality' or 'There are no victims, only volunteers.'
But when a guru complains of hardship or of being persecuted, no one ever tells the guru, 'Dont wallow in victim mentality.'
Nope.
In these undiscussed power imbalances, only the powerholder's suffering is considered worthy of compassion, and only the powerholder's suffering is considered real.
A thought question: would BK's material seem as interesting without her narrative of being on the floor with the cockroaches?
She reportedly tells people to get out of their own stories, but her personal narrative is part of what makes so many hope for healing in the first place.
2) "Have there been other cases where large groups of people had their food tampered with?"
A wee tip: Google 'rajneesh' and 'salmonella'
Disclaimer: this is NOT to say anyone is doing this today, but that it has been done in the past.
Re: Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
jj52
()
Date: February 26, 2008 12:33AM
Steve Sashen:
And, second, I am not interested in becoming a guru myself. It's too awkward to have brunch with your "students" -- let alone "disciples" -- when they attribute magical qualities to you (qualities your spouse may not agree you possess). And I really like having brunch with people.
This is so Byron Katie-ish. BK insists that she is not a guru, just a person trying to help you find your own way. He's made a very similar claim here... but there's more to it than that.
The book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker lists a tactic manipulators use to convince their victims called "Too Many Details." The object is to throw out pointless details in the conversation that appear to be witty banter, maybe, but really serve a different purpose-- to convince you that what they say is true. People who are telling the truth don't need to use this tactic, because they know they are telling the truth. They don't feel the need to convince you. When a person is lying, they know it, and they know you might also know it... so they work very hard to convince you.
Why didn't he just say: "I don't want to be a guru, so don't ask me for advice"?
What is all this awkwardness around brunch, and your spouse's agreement of qualities you may have? What in the world does that have to do with being a guru? Absolutely nothing. It's just extra little details in an attempt to convince the audience that what he says is true. Byron Katie does this constantly.
If a person did want to be a guru, what could be their motives? Money? Power? Control? Attention and adoration? So, while Steve Sashen is saying he doesn't want to be a guru, it's pretty clear that he's creating himself a little-guru status with his blogsite... and giving a witty, but poor attempt to convince you not to trust your own eyes. Lots of attention, if nothing else. I seriously doubt that brunch was ever his real motive.
The interesting thing here to me, is that if you keep in mind what Byron Katie is teaching, you can see very clearly that Steve Sashen is not practicing what he preaches... and possibly already becoming disconnected from himself. Why would anyone want to keep a blog to bash gurus, when they have guru friends, are mimicking BK, and are obviously a mini-guru?
Projection!
LOL
It's alarming how many people involved with The Work seem to take on BK's personality, and pick up her covert aggressive tactics rather efficiently. Even more alarming how many of them seem to actually project more after being involved in The Work. Keep in mind, this guy has been heavily involved with BK and The Work. He's not himself anymore.
I didn't go to Guruphiliac's blog... I've heard it all before. I'm pretty sure he's got nothing new to say. Let's all be advised that not all Guru-watchers are capable of spotting one in their midst.
I also find it interesting when BK apologists get so defensive about what is posted here. In BK-land, defensiveness is supposed to be a sign that you have an unresolved issue. For example: if someone says "You're being ridiciulous", and you get defensive, that's evidence that what the other person is saying is true. You're supposed to "go inside" and find it.
During the "criticize Katie" segment, BK supposedly proved to us that she was not guilty of our criticisms by remaining completely calm and not getting defensive. We had a whole exercise around this (which I've already written about) that trained us how to receive criticism without getting defensive.
So, while these BK apologists are being defensive... they are not even practicing what they're preaching. If they were really practicing The Work, they would see their defensiveness, and consider that as "evidence" that there is some truth to what is being said here.
No matter how you look at it, when you're involved in The Work, you're the one that's always at fault. LOL. BK says that if you think the other person is the problem, you're insane. So, while Steve Sashen is telling himself that we are the problem, he really "should" be seeing his own insanity. CRITICISM IS KIND, after all. Right?
It's crazy, isn't it? They screw themselves with their own beliefs, no matter what. If they don't own their criticisms of us as projections of themselves, then they've just proved they don't really subscribe to The Work at all. They are darned if they do, darned if they don't.
Example: Guruphiliac says that this criticism of BK comes from "irrational anti-cultists." As a dutiful student of The Work, he would be required to go to Inquiry and turn that around to himself, own it, and then look again to see what a great kindness we have done him by showing him the truth. And then, he should thank us all.
I'll bet Steve Sashen didn't tell him that part.
--jj
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:01AM by jj52.
And, second, I am not interested in becoming a guru myself. It's too awkward to have brunch with your "students" -- let alone "disciples" -- when they attribute magical qualities to you (qualities your spouse may not agree you possess). And I really like having brunch with people.
This is so Byron Katie-ish. BK insists that she is not a guru, just a person trying to help you find your own way. He's made a very similar claim here... but there's more to it than that.
The book "The Gift of Fear" by Gavin De Becker lists a tactic manipulators use to convince their victims called "Too Many Details." The object is to throw out pointless details in the conversation that appear to be witty banter, maybe, but really serve a different purpose-- to convince you that what they say is true. People who are telling the truth don't need to use this tactic, because they know they are telling the truth. They don't feel the need to convince you. When a person is lying, they know it, and they know you might also know it... so they work very hard to convince you.
Why didn't he just say: "I don't want to be a guru, so don't ask me for advice"?
What is all this awkwardness around brunch, and your spouse's agreement of qualities you may have? What in the world does that have to do with being a guru? Absolutely nothing. It's just extra little details in an attempt to convince the audience that what he says is true. Byron Katie does this constantly.
If a person did want to be a guru, what could be their motives? Money? Power? Control? Attention and adoration? So, while Steve Sashen is saying he doesn't want to be a guru, it's pretty clear that he's creating himself a little-guru status with his blogsite... and giving a witty, but poor attempt to convince you not to trust your own eyes. Lots of attention, if nothing else. I seriously doubt that brunch was ever his real motive.
The interesting thing here to me, is that if you keep in mind what Byron Katie is teaching, you can see very clearly that Steve Sashen is not practicing what he preaches... and possibly already becoming disconnected from himself. Why would anyone want to keep a blog to bash gurus, when they have guru friends, are mimicking BK, and are obviously a mini-guru?
Projection!
LOL
It's alarming how many people involved with The Work seem to take on BK's personality, and pick up her covert aggressive tactics rather efficiently. Even more alarming how many of them seem to actually project more after being involved in The Work. Keep in mind, this guy has been heavily involved with BK and The Work. He's not himself anymore.
I didn't go to Guruphiliac's blog... I've heard it all before. I'm pretty sure he's got nothing new to say. Let's all be advised that not all Guru-watchers are capable of spotting one in their midst.
I also find it interesting when BK apologists get so defensive about what is posted here. In BK-land, defensiveness is supposed to be a sign that you have an unresolved issue. For example: if someone says "You're being ridiciulous", and you get defensive, that's evidence that what the other person is saying is true. You're supposed to "go inside" and find it.
During the "criticize Katie" segment, BK supposedly proved to us that she was not guilty of our criticisms by remaining completely calm and not getting defensive. We had a whole exercise around this (which I've already written about) that trained us how to receive criticism without getting defensive.
So, while these BK apologists are being defensive... they are not even practicing what they're preaching. If they were really practicing The Work, they would see their defensiveness, and consider that as "evidence" that there is some truth to what is being said here.
No matter how you look at it, when you're involved in The Work, you're the one that's always at fault. LOL. BK says that if you think the other person is the problem, you're insane. So, while Steve Sashen is telling himself that we are the problem, he really "should" be seeing his own insanity. CRITICISM IS KIND, after all. Right?
It's crazy, isn't it? They screw themselves with their own beliefs, no matter what. If they don't own their criticisms of us as projections of themselves, then they've just proved they don't really subscribe to The Work at all. They are darned if they do, darned if they don't.
Example: Guruphiliac says that this criticism of BK comes from "irrational anti-cultists." As a dutiful student of The Work, he would be required to go to Inquiry and turn that around to himself, own it, and then look again to see what a great kindness we have done him by showing him the truth. And then, he should thank us all.
I'll bet Steve Sashen didn't tell him that part.
--jj
Edited 8 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:01AM by jj52.
Re: Guruphiliac, selective Guru-Apologist?
Posted by:
jj52
()
Date: February 26, 2008 01:19AM
One of my favorite books about dealing with manipulators is "In Sheep's Clothing" by George K. Simon. There is an excerpt from it on Rick Ross here.
One of the main tactics that covert aggressors use, according to Simon, is called "Villifying the Victim."
It's really messed up, because The Work actually teaches how to use this tactic. As a student of The Work, when someone comes to you in agony over some horrific abuse... the way to "help" them is to make them responsible for it. Facilitators of The Work learn how to villify victims, and to teach victims how to villify other victims, and so on and so on.
I've noticed as I read what BK apologists (and Guruphiliac) said that many of these covert aggressive tactics are employed. I'm saying from experience that BK and her entourage have covert aggression down to an art.
Selective Inattention
Denial
Rationalization
Diversion
Lying
Covert intimidation
Guilt tripping
Shaming
Playing the Victim Role
Villifying the Victim
Playing the Servant Role
Seduction [BK: "Honey, Angel, Sweetheart"]
Projecting the blame (blaming others)
Minimization
I highly recommend reading the whole excerpt from the book, for those who haven't already. This information has helped me tremendously in getting out of The Work.
-jj
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:38AM by jj52.
One of the main tactics that covert aggressors use, according to Simon, is called "Villifying the Victim."
It's really messed up, because The Work actually teaches how to use this tactic. As a student of The Work, when someone comes to you in agony over some horrific abuse... the way to "help" them is to make them responsible for it. Facilitators of The Work learn how to villify victims, and to teach victims how to villify other victims, and so on and so on.
I've noticed as I read what BK apologists (and Guruphiliac) said that many of these covert aggressive tactics are employed. I'm saying from experience that BK and her entourage have covert aggression down to an art.
Selective Inattention
Denial
Rationalization
Diversion
Lying
Covert intimidation
Guilt tripping
Shaming
Playing the Victim Role
Villifying the Victim
Playing the Servant Role
Seduction [BK: "Honey, Angel, Sweetheart"]
Projecting the blame (blaming others)
Minimization
I highly recommend reading the whole excerpt from the book, for those who haven't already. This information has helped me tremendously in getting out of The Work.
-jj
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:38AM by jj52.
Re: Byron Katie (the Work) and Eckhart Tolle Legit??
Posted by:
jj52
()
Date: February 26, 2008 01:31AM
Quote
corboy
1) "But my oh my... just ask a few questions of the "guru" and people get quite
prickly.
"So when I pose questions about her facelift, why does this provoke
answers like, "Ah leave her alone. Stop picking on her. Maybe
you're the one with unresolved issues..."
"Stop picking on her".
Folks, there is a double standard that one sees again and yet again whenever someone is set up as an infallible person--and as a recipient for all the idealized projections of a group.
Only the guru's suffering is considered real. Only the guru's suffering is considered worth of compassion.
Corboy,
Very keen insight. Thank you for pointing that out.
This is exactly what I meant by saying that we were subtly and silently shunned for criticizing BK at the School. I'm sure no one was told to shun us, but people were so defensive of her... that those of us who did it found it a lot more difficult to be involved. There were people who were visibly upset by those of us who criticized BK. It was all very subtle though... very subtle.
There was a night where I was paired off with this woman, I'll call her Jane. This woman was so totally preoccupied with BK a few yards away that she could not keep with the exercise at all. Jane's anxiety over BK's well-being was visible... she could barely sit still and could not focus on anything else. By her appearance, I would have expected her to go pick up BK, carry her up to bed, tuck her in, and nurse her maybe.
A lot of BK followers are extremely, extremely protective of her... She's a grown woman who claims to be god, and to love everything, and wants nothing. What care-taking could she possibly need?
-jj
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 02/26/2008 01:41AM by jj52.
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