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Colter
13th stepping is not a part of the AA program. Your referring to the [b:ed15950f24]behavior of an individual[/b:ed15950f24], not AA.

Such immoral behavior is openly discouraged in AA meetings. It's not uncommon to here older members suggesting that new members avoid getting involved in new sexual relationships for at least one year after getting sober.

If by 13th steping your refering to rape the individual should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law...........and he should have his butt kicked.

Yes, it was the behavior of one individual; however, the majority of the AA community at their regular meetings contributed to the problem by gossiping, cross-talk and telling one party what the other party had shared about at a closed meeting. That is a clear violation of the "leave here what you heard here" principle.

Just to clarify, there was no rape involved. My friend is male and was 13-stepped by a female.

Colter says:

Quote

I've yet to meet anyone whose life was ruined by AA.

AA is not for people who need it, it's for people who want it. If you don't want it by all means don't go.

In other words, if you are not in total agreement with our "group-think", we don't want you.

Criticism or questioning is [b:a6c7907ea8]not[/b:a6c7907ea8] permitted.

In one Alano club, an AA member was slandered by accusations of "child molestation", (for coming on to a 16 year old drug-addicted sexually promiscuous AA member; he was maybe 30), and he killed himself in response to the gossip.

At the very emotionally heated meetings following the incident, other members stepped up to the podium and screamed sermons about how "He got what he deserved!"

Colter states;

Quote

I've yet to meet an Alcoholic whose mental faculties were so superb that dependence on a group of drunks to stay sober adversely affected them.

This is a judgement call, and is only his viewpoint.

This is a thinly-veiled put-down, implying that anyone who feels the need to question thinks they are too smart for the program.

It's in the Big Book, after all:

Quote

... we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word... Rather vain of us, wasn't it?

And the slogans:

Quote

• "Nobody is too stupid to get the Program, but some people are too intelligent."
• "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."
• "Your best thinking got you here."
• "Utilize, Don't Analyze."

Does anyone really have the figures on how many people actually stay sober in AA?
There are widely differing opinions on this.

Of course, those who don't get sober after a million meetings have only themselves to blame, according to (you guessed it) the Big Book:

Quote

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Those of you who aren't ready to swallow the AA dogma in its entirety, without questioning it, and prefer to investigate for yourselves, might want to try this link:

[orange-papers.org]

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bonnie

In the Alano club here, one AA member was slandered by accusations of "child molestation", (for coming on to a 16 year old drug-addicted sexually promiscuous AA member; he was maybe 30), and he killed himself in response to the gossip.

At the very emotionally heated meetings following the incident, other members stepped up to the podium and screamed sermons about how "He got what he deserved!"

That sounds suspiciously like crosstalk to me. I thought crosstalk was not allowed in AA meetings. Aren't the chairpeople supposed to prevent that type of talk from happening in a meeting?

Quote
bonnie
Colter states;

Quote

I've yet to meet an Alcoholic whose mental faculties were so superb that dependence on a group of drunks to stay sober adversely affected them.

This is a judgement call, and is only his viewpoint.

Perhaps his definition of "adversely affected" is different than mine.

It's also a thinly-veiled put-down, implying that anyone who feels the need to question thinks they are too smart for the program.

Again, I have heard this type of response many, many times.

It's in the Big Book, after all:

Quote

... we agnostics and atheists chose to believe that our human intelligence was the last word... Rather vain of us, wasn't it?

And the slogans:

Quote

• "Nobody is too stupid to get the Program, but some people are too intelligent."
• "Stop Your Stinkin' Thinkin'."
• "Your best thinking got you here."
• "Utilize, Don't Analyze."

Does anyone really have the figures on how many people actually stay sober in AA?
There are widely differing opinions on this.

Of course, those who don't get sober after a million meetings have only themselves to blame, according to (you guessed it) the Big Book:

Quote

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

My experience was that those who "get it" are neither the smartest nor the most honest alcoholics.
But the ones who stay in AA, recruit, and preach [b:4d059a97e7]are[/b:4d059a97e7] the ones who accept without questioning, at least [b:4d059a97e7]out loud[/b:4d059a97e7].
Going to meetings is not comfortable for those who disagree.

Those of you who aren't ready to swallow the AA dogma in its entirety, without questioning it, and prefer to investigate for yourselves, might want to try this link:

[orange-papers.org]

Bonnie,

I think that most people who read this stuff can see that you have a grudge towards AA.

In the spiritual disease of addiction the individual often builds up an alternative reality within their own mind, a juvenile rebellion against authority, all authority. When people come to AA we simply tell them our experience of denial, ego deflation, healing and serenity.

It's fairly common for strong willed individuals to come into AA and try to "run the whole show" just as they have done all their lives. One of 3 things usually happens.

1) they surrender to a God of their own understanding (they become teachable) and stay sober.

2) they fight AA like children rebelling against their parents and get drunk.

3) or unable to run the whole show they launch into a crusade against AA often demonstrating the same negative behaviors that they accuse AA members of having. Sometimes being unable to run the whole show in one group they go start their own AA group and run everything they way they like but then young members start to see how unhealthy this is and bring AA's 12 traditions to the attention of the "Guru." He or she sees themselves as persecuted and feels sorry for themselves. Then they determine that something is wrong with AA and leave.



One such individual left AA and started RR Rational Recovery, a protest against the spirituality of AA. Well the husband and wife that started RR have now gone off the deep end and on their web site are now telling people they should not even go to the program they started.



Another AA member decided she was healed and started Moderation Management leading many to just moderate. Well the long and short of it is that lady is in jail now, she was driving drunk (heavily moderating) crashed into a man and his daughter killing them both.



The slogans that you quoted are "evolved" slogans. They are[b:4d059a97e7] NOT [/b:4d059a97e7]AA slogans. The AA slogans are:


*First things first

*Live and let live

*One day at a time

*Think think think

Religious or spiritual movements do evolve, that's why we have the traditions of AA.

At some point Bonnie you will find that i do agree with some of what your saying, I voice my feelings in AA weather they like it or not. I have every right to share my expieriance in AA. I tend to go to meetings where the program is adhered to and the spirit of AA is welcome.

Your bashing of the program becasue you don't like how it's run can have the effect of keeping people from getting help.


Colter

My criticism of "the program", which you refer to as "bashing", could also keep someone from getting hurt.

I seriously doubt that this particular forum is a place where desperate alkies often come in search of help.
Your reaction to my questioning and criticism of AA only serves to support my premise:

[b:402a225eac]There is something about the 12 step programs that leads members to strongly oppose any questioning and to bitterly attack those who do not subscribe to the accepted interpretation, or what I refer to as "group think".[/b:402a225eac]

Quote
bonnie
Dear Colter:

My criticism of "the program", which you refer to as "bashing", could also keep someone from getting hurt.

I seriously doubt that this particular forum is a place where desperate alkies often come in search of help.
This [b:fd750f2b64]is[/b:fd750f2b64] the [b:fd750f2b64]cult education website[/b:fd750f2b64], and, IMHO, AA shares some characteristics with other recognized cults.

Your reaction to my questioning and criticism of AA only serves to support my premise:

[b:fd750f2b64]There is something about the 12 step programs that leads members to strongly oppose any questioning and to bitterly attack those who do not subscribe to the accepted interpretation, or what I refer to as "group think".[/b:fd750f2b64]

Thank whatever powers that be that there is at least one place where
questioning of "the program" is permitted.

There are lots of nice, "positive" AA forums where no negativity about AA is allowed.
Perhaps you would be more comfortable discussing AA with only those people who share your point of view.

Keep Coming Back!

Nice try

45 posts and 4,295 page views shows that this is no obscure topic. There may well be alcoholics that are seeking help and checking up on AA here first.

You are misrepresenting AA because of your own grudge.
And no I'm not going anywhere, you can use your own cult like bullying tactics, half truths, selective excerpts from program literature and exaggerated representation of what goes on in autonomous AA meetings but I'm gonna stay right here.

I trust the audience will draw their own conclusions without having to be spoon fed by the disgruntled.

Colter

I have posted no lies, no slander, no "misrepresentation" as you call it.

By the way, where do you get your supposed "facts" about certain disgruntled ex-12-steppers?

How do you "know" that:

Quote

One such individual left AA and started RR Rational Recovery, a protest against the spirituality of AA. Well the husband and wife that started RR have now gone off the deep end and on their web site are now telling people they should not even go to the program they started.

Another AA member decided she was healed and started Moderation Management leading many to just moderate. Well the long and short of it is that lady is in jail now, she was driving drunk (heavily moderating) crashed into a man and his daughter killing them both.

?

Hmmm?

There is something about the 12 step programs that leads members to strongly oppose any questioning and to bitterly attack those who do not subscribe to the accepted interpretation, or what I refer to as "group think.

[b:2fd830596c]Funny, though, if you read the other topics, you will find members of all the "recognized" cults using the same arguments and tactics to try to silence those who disagree with the cult dogma.[/b:2fd830596c]

I could give lots of examples, and will, if you don't get off the "Bonnie's got a grudge against wonderful old AA kick".


Oh, well, I'd rather give a resentment than get one.

Bonnie wrote:

Oh, well, I'd rather give a resentment than get one.
Sure hope all this debate doesn't cause you to "take that first drink"!
"Easy does it, there, Bub!" :D

I already like you. Ok, I will agree to cut out the "disgruntled" stuff.

Quote

How do you "know" that:
Quote:
One such individual left AA and started RR Rational Recovery, a protest against the spirituality of AA. Well the husband and wife that started RR have now gone off the deep end and on their web site are now telling people they should not even go to the program they started.

Another AA member decided she was healed and started Moderation Management leading many to just moderate. Well the long and short of it is that lady is in jail now, she was driving drunk (heavily moderating) crashed into a man and his daughter killing them both.
?

Hmmm?

Perhaps these are half-truths, or out and out lies, like you accuse me of spreading.

RR

Rational Recocery

"Trimpey also publishes a petition on the web site calling for the abolition of all publicly-funded addiction treatment, he has an open letter to public officials in which he claims the inmates are running the asylum, and he calls any court that has ordered alcoholics or addicts to get treatment kangaroo courts."

"The RR web site also features a Public Health Warning that "addiction recovery groups are hazardous to your life, your health, your liberty, and your pursuit of happiness." Remarkably,[b:6381155a32] Trimpey claims that he has cancelled the recovery group movement urging people with addictions to avoid all kinds of addiction recovery groups, [u:6381155a32]including his own former Rational Recovery Self-Help Network[/u:6381155a32][/b:6381155a32]................see article.

[alcoholism.about.com]

[b:6381155a32]Arrest trips up 'moderate drinking' crusader's cause
Movement's founder sent to prison for two DUI fatalities [/b:6381155a32][/size:6381155a32]

Friday, August 11, 2000

By CANDACE HECKMAN
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER REPORTER

ELLENSBURG -- For years, Audrey Kishline thought she and other recovering alcoholics could learn to drink responsibly.

Her belief was so strong that she helped found a nationwide movement called Moderation Management, and became the movement's marquee speaker.

Today, the Woodinville woman was sentenced in Kittitas County court to 4 1/2 years in prison for two counts of vehicular homicide -- deaths resulting from her drunken driving.

[b:6381155a32]Four months ago, the 43-year-old alcoholic drove down the wrong side of Interstate 90 near Cle Elum, plowing through traffic and crashing her pickup head-on into a car driven by Richard "Danny" Davis, 38, of Yakima County. In the car with Davis was his daughter LaSchell, 12. Both were killed...........see article[/b:6381155a32]
[seattlepi.nwsource.com]


to be cont.

Colter[/size:6381155a32][/quote]

I always preferred "Think, Think, Think" to "Keep it simple, stupid!".

As far as "moderation" goes, anyone with long-time experience of addiction of any kind should have proved to themself that moderation is difficult at best and a pipe dream for most.