* In AA the God concept is entirely a personal matter for the individual to define. One does NOT have to believe in anyone else's concept of God. In my home group we have 2 atheist', a Jewish man, two Sufis Muslims, 2 nature worshipers, a Christian Scientist, me a Urantia Book reader, and others that I'm not sure about. The spirituality of AA is quite progressive but without being watered down to the abstract. We are all allowed to find our our way without a shaman intermediary such as a priest, minister, prophet, guru, mystic, channeler or any religious authority.

* When AA was in it's formative years critics said that it was anarchical and could not function without specific doctrine and rules. Rather than placing a human authority framework in charge of others the great step was taken to allow God to be the ultimate authority within the group, " our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern."

* Religious doctrine or orthodoxy tends to require that everyone think the same way or at a bear minimal establishes a "creedal" requirement for membership such as the Ascene creed established at Nicaea in 365 AD by the Holy Catholic church. The true spirit of AA is "unity" not "uniformity," something that some fundamentalist AA's loose sight of.

* AA allows the individual to start wherever they are in their spiritual life or Atheist life for that matter. I've seen Atheist hang around for years until one day they reach their own concept of God. A healthy AA group will ensure that a non believer in God is welcome, accepted and loved.



RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

Our stories disclose in a general way what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now. If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it -- then you are ready to take certain steps.

At some of these we balked. thought we could find an easier, softer way. But we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start. Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas and the result was nil until we let go absolutely.

Remember that we deal with alcohol -- cunning, baffling,
powerful! Without help it is too much for us. But there is One who has all power -- that One is God. May you find Him now!

Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point. we asked His protection and care with complete abandon.

Here are the steps we took, which are suggested as a program of recovery:


1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol -- that our lives had become unmanageable.
2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10. Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

[b:db942fc295] Many of us exclaimed, "What an order! I can't go through with it." Do not be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We are not saints. The point is, that we are willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. [/b:db942fc295]

Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventure before and after make clear three pertinent ideas:

(a) That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives.
(b) That probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism.
(c) That God could and would if He were sought.


Colter

I have been following this post because, while I have never had issues with addiction to alchohol or been to an AA meeting, I did attend co-dependents anonymous for about 2 years. It did not help me with my issues and I stopped going. I don't have any particular negative feelings about the experience - it just didn't help.

As a non-AA person, I wanted to share my perspective on this thread. Bonnie makes some valid points about some cult-like aspects of AA. That does not mean that AA is a cult or that every AA group is promoting cult-like behavior. However, the danger is there - especially when the people involved in AA are likely to have come from dysfunctional backgrounds, i.e., they had no healthy role models. It's then easy (although unconsciously) for dysfunctional behaviors to be recreated in the group, especially if no one has enough awareness to counter them.

The main problem I had in Co-dependents Anonymous was that no one was healthy enough to serve as a role model, and as the weeks passed, I did not see any real growth taking place in the participants - it was more of a place for people to come and vent (which is not necessarily a bad thing, just not what I wanted).

Anyway, I have never experienced Bonnie as being a disgruntled AA member or having a grudge against AA. She has come across IMO as having had a different experience of AA that she wanted to share.

QE

"Colter" quotes from the Big Book, the AA bible:

Quote

RARELY HAVE we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest.

In fact, all of that post is from the AA literature.

[b:63f42692ab]Seems like preaching to me. It is preaching.

Is it ok to preach about AA, a program of group therapy run by non-professionals?[/b:63f42692ab]
This is one of the moderator's posts about the mankind project.

[b:63f42692ab]Every time he (RR) states "MP", substitute "AA". For "weekend", substitute "meeting".

Does it really make more sense to rely on AA for your mental well-being than to rely on the MKP?[/b:63f42692ab]

Quote

Would you also explain, given what is known about MP now through this thread, why it should not be considered group therapy?

And why would someone seek help in their life from MP rather than a more safe and conventional approach through a licensed professional?

A licensed professional would seem better qualified, educated, accountable and less problematic in dealing with personal issues, such as those identified, explored and examined through an MP weekend.

Why do you think a man should give his valuable time to MP rather than spend that same time more conventionally with a licensed marriage and family therapist or through individual or group therapy with a clinical psychologist?

Doesn't that make more sense time-wise and practically?

Time is valuable, so woldn't it be more proudctive and safe for someone concerned about personal issues to schedule scarce and valuable time with a qualified professional licensed in their rather than a philosophical group like MP?

Colter states:

Quote

* In AA the God concept is entirely a personal matter for the individual to define. One does NOT have to believe in anyone else's concept of God. In my home group we have 2 atheist', a Jewish man, two Sufis Muslims, 2 nature worshipers, a Christian Scientist, me a Urantia Book reader, and others that I'm not sure about. The spirituality of AA is quite progressive but without being watered down to the abstract. We are all allowed to find our our way without a shaman intermediary such as a priest, minister, prophet, guru, mystic, channeler or any religious authority.

* When AA was in it's formative years critics said that it was anarchical and could not function without specific doctrine and rules. Rather than placing a human authority framework in charge of others the great step was taken to allow God to be the ultimate authority within the group, " our leaders are but trusted servants, they do not govern."

* Religious doctrine or orthodoxy tends to require that everyone think the same way or at a bear minimal establishes a "creedal" requirement for membership such as the Ascene creed established at Nicaea in 365 AD by the Holy Catholic church. The true spirit of AA is "unity" not "uniformity," something that some fundamentalist AA's loose sight of.

* AA allows the individual to start wherever they are in their spiritual life or Atheist life for that matter. I've seen Atheist hang around for years until one day they reach their own concept of God. A healthy AA group will ensure that a non believer in God is welcome, accepted and loved.

OK, so AA does allow you to have a "God of your own understanding". I never said otherwise.

[b:66adaec754]That's not what concerns me.[/b:66adaec754]

What I'm bothered by is the fact that the [b:66adaec754]program[/b:66adaec754] itself is regarded as above question by AA and its members, and that anyone who does question or criticize the program, the literature, or the behavior of certain members is discredited.

Attempts are made to silence them.

They are ostracized by the group.

[b:66adaec754]Questioning of the AA dogma is not allowed within AA.

It is not tolerated outside of AA by AA advocates.

Attempts to silence percieved detractors by inflicting guilt, (such as saying you will be preventing someone from going to an AA meeting), are used by active AA members.[/b:66adaec754]

[b:66adaec754]Nothing that could be considered as "negativity" about the "program" is permitted by those who advocate AA.[/b:66adaec754]

(I have chosen to remove my AA experiences from this thread.)

I thought it would be helpful to define what the pejorative term "cult" means and where it comes from.


[b:77fbfa47c6]Cult[/b:77fbfa47c6][/size:77fbfa47c6]

Definition: Cult
Cult
Noun
1. Adherents of an exclusive system of religious beliefs and practices.

2. An interest followed with exaggerated zeal: "he always follows the latest fads"; "it was all the rage that season".

3. A system of religious beliefs and rituals.

Date "cult" was first used in popular English literature: sometime before 1550. (references)

Specialty Definition: Cult
(From Wikipedia, the free Encyclopedia)


This article discusses abusive or destructive cults. See also: cult film, cult television, cult radio.

The literal and traditional meaning of the word cult, from the Latin cultus, meaning "care" or "adoration", is "a system of religious belief or ritual; or: the body of adherents to same." In formal use, and in non-English European terms, the cognates of the English word "cult" are neutral, and refer mainly to divisions within a single faith, a purpose to which "sect" is put in English. Hence, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox and Protestant are cults within Christianity.

[b:77fbfa47c6]Since the 1960s, in English-speaking countries, especially in North America, most English speakers have adopted the term in a pejorative sense to denote groups, many of them with religious themes, that exploit their members psychologically and financially using group-based persuasion techniques (sometimes called "mind control"). Unlike legitimate religious movements, cults are characterized by high levels of dependency, exploitation, and compliance with demands of leadership that are unrelated to religion.[/b:77fbfa47c6]

The term cult has a technical meaning in the sociology of religions, referring to a religious group with novel beliefs and with a high degree of tension with the surrounding society. This meaning is purely neutral.

90% or more of cult members ultimately leave their group. [2,3]

Definitions of the term "cult," and alternative language

Cults are groups that often exploit members psychologically and/or financially, typically by making members comply with leadership’s demands through certain types of psychological manipulation, popularly called mind control, and through the inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the group and its leaders [1]

[b:77fbfa47c6]Cult: A group or movement exhibiting a great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea, or thing and employing unethically manipulative techniques of persuasion and control . . . designed to advance the goals of the group’s leaders to the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, or the community.[/b:77fbfa47c6] [7]

The best characterisation of use of the term cult is that it remains controversial.

[b:77fbfa47c6]Some critics have tried to apply the cult label to legitimate religious movements in an effort to discredit them.[/b:77fbfa47c6] Some conservative Christian writers have been particularly quick to [u:77fbfa47c6]call any religious movement that they disagree with a cult.[/u:77fbfa47c6] There are also some spiritually abusive churches that have many cultlike characteristics, but are not cults. The largest cults are well-financed and have active, ongoing public relations efforts. A major goal of these efforts is to load the language (see below) by broadening the popular definition of a cult to the point where the term becomes meaningless.

Such groups often defend their position by comparing themselves to more established, mainstream religious groups such as Catholicism and Judaism. The argument offered in this case can usually be simplified as, "Christianity and Judaism can also be defined as cults under some definitions of the term, therefore the term cult is superfluous and useless."

Some serious researchers of religion and sociology prefer to use terms such as new religious movement in their research on cults.[u:77fbfa47c6] Such usage may lead to confusion because there do exist fringe religious movements that are not abusive, and some groups appear non-religious or deny similiarities to religion.[/u:77fbfa47c6]

Psychologists and other mental health professionals use the terms cult, abusive cult, or destructive cult. These are also the most common terms in the popular press.

In their defense, groups labeled as cults often see themselves as persecuted by the anti-cult movement, which (they claim) consists of a number of groups working together to suppress their religious beliefs. Critics of these groups counter with the claim that the popularization of the term "anti-cult groups" is an attempt to construct an elaborate conspiracy theory aimed at fostering pity and support for alleged cult groups.

In French, culte just means "worship"; an association cultuelle is just an association whose goal is to organize worship (and is eligible for tax exemption). The word for "cult" is secte. See false friend.


Important Word Usage Consideration
There is often a marked difference between a word's definition and a word's usage. [u:77fbfa47c6]The definition of the word "cult" applies to all religions;[/u:77fbfa47c6] the usage of the word (since the 1960s) applies to a sub-set of religions and groups - those that engage in abusive or criminal behavior, and/or deny their members civil and human rights.

For scholars and professional commentators, the usage of the word "cult" applies to maleficent behavior, and not to belief. For members of competing religions, use of the word is pejorative and applies primarily to rival beliefs (see memes), and only incidentally to behavior. This has caused some religious scholars to prefix the word "abusive" in front of the word "cult" when they write or speak about abusive religious groups.


Historical Examples
Some extreme examples of destructive cults follow:


In 1978, 914 followers of Jim Jones died in a mass murder/suicide in Jonestown, Guyana. 274 of the dead were children.

On April 19, 1993, over 70 Branch Davidians, followers of David Koresh, died in a fire in Waco, Texas following a lengthy siege by United States federal law enforcement officials.

In 1997, 39 followers of the Heaven's Gate cult died in a mass suicide. Male members of the cult underwent castration in preparation for the suicide

Between 1995 and 1997 74 members of a cult called the Order of the Solar Temple died in mass murder/suicides.

Aum Shinri Kyo murdered 12 subway passengers with sarin gas in a Tokyo subway. Over 5000 others sufferred injury. The group still operates and has over 7,000 members, though it has changed its name to "Aleph".

Prevalence
As of 1995, between 3,000 and 5,000 cults existed in the United States. [5] The majority of these groups vigorously protest the label "cult" and refuse to be classified as such, but the more well-known and influential of these groups are often viewed as "cults" by the public at large. These groups often expend large amounts of energy and money engaging in public relations campaigns to rid themselves of the association with the term "cult." A number of these groups appear in the Wikipedia list of purported cults.


Shared Practices
While the religious, philosophical, and spiritual beliefs vary widely from one cult to the next, the actions of cults show striking similarities. Many published checklists of cult behavior have appeared, and sources differ in the terminology they use and how they group the behaviors together. [1,3,5] Some common items that set abusive cults apart from other organizations include:


Milieu control – Cults seek to control members' sources of information and social interaction. They encourage members to sever communication and relationships with friends and family members.
Infallibility, or “The Sacred Science” – Cults teach that the chosen philosophy or experiential panacea forms the only possible path to salvation. Cults discourage critical and rational thinking. Persons who question or challenge what the cult offers are denied access or exiled.
Mystical Manipulation – Cults ascribe events to supernatural influences even where such influences do not exist.
Demand for purity – Cults have unreachably high standards for the behavior of their members.
Confession – Even trivial violations of the group’s demand for purity must be confessed immediately and thoroughly, often to a large group.
Loading the language – Cults redefine common words and use glib thought-terminating catchphrases as an answer to questions.

Additionally, many cults have the following characteristics, though they are not as unique to cults as the ones listed above:

Authoritarianism -- Control of the organization stems from an absolute leader or a small circle of elite commanders. Often the cult's leadership is glorified with a vast personality cult. The leader may be recognized as divine, or even as God.
Secret doctrines - certain "secret" (esoteric) teachings that must not ever be revealed to the outside world
Promised Ones - members of the cult are encouraged to believe they were chosen, or made their choice to join the cult, because they are special or superior
Fire and Brimstone - leaving the cult, or failing at one's endeavor to complete the requirements to achieve its panacea, will result in consequences greater than if one had never joined the cult in the first place.
Shunning -- members who leave may not contact members who remain.

External Links
Note: The Internet offers a great deal of material beyond the following list:
Apologetics Index: research resources on cults, sects, and related issues. The publisher operates from an evangelical Christian point of view, but the site links to and presents a variety of viewpoints.]
ReligionNewsBlog.com Current news articles about religious cults, sects, and related issues.
Cult Apologists What you should know about cult defenders.
[www.religioustolerance.org]. This site offers a sympathetic view of cults.
Cult Index. An anti-cult site.
Advanced Bonewits Cult Danger Evaluation Frame (ABCDEF), by Isaac Bonewits. A 15-point checklist of the factors that the author suggests can be used for personal evaluation of groups that may be classified as cults.

See also
New Religious Movement
mind control
brainwashing
deprogramming
cargo cult
purported cults
homicidal cults
LGATs
shunning
Totalitarian religious group

References

1 William Chambers, Michael Langone, Arthur Dole & James Grice, "The Group Psychological Abuse Scale: A Measure of the Varieties of Cultic Abuse", Cultic Studies Journal, 11(1), 1994. The definition of a cult given above is based on a study of 308 former members of 101 groups.
2 Barker E. "The Ones Who Got Away: People Who Attend Unification Church Workshops and Do Not Become Moonies". In: Barker E, ed. Of Gods and Men: New Religious Movements in the West. Macon, Ga. : Mercer University Press; 1983.
3 Galanter M. "Unification Church ('Moonie') dropouts: psychological readjustment after leaving a charismatic religious group". Am J Psychiatry. 1983;140(8):984-989.
4 Enroth, Ronald. Churches that Abuse
5 Singer, M with Lalich, J (1995). Cults in Our Midst, San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.
6 Aronoff, Jodi; Lynn, Steven Jay; Malinosky, Peter. “Are cultic environments psychologically harmful?” Clinical Psychology Review, 2000, Vol. 20 #1 pp. 91-111
7 West, L. J., & Langone, M. D. (1985). Cultism: A conference for scholars and policy makers. Summary of proceedings of the Wingspread conference on cultism, September 9–11. Weston, MA: American Family Foundation.

Don't think AA is a cult?
Google "aa cult alexander rollins" and see what you find!

Ever heard of "the BITE model"?
Believe in our constitutional rights?

Here's a little something I found:

[www.geocities.com]

Devin Sexson

Quote

It is not even a question as to whether or not AA fits the BITE model. Obviously, it does. The cult of Alcoholics Anonymous is clearly as dangerous and destructive if not more so than the most notorious cults in our society. Some of the most tyrannical aspects of AA are not addressed in the BITE model. [b:8da462cb80]There is no other cult that has managed to infiltrate the United States court system and have people court ordered to attend its meetings. Under the pretense of being "spiritual, not religious" AA has slipped past the Constitution of the United States and has set up a system of enforced religious indoctrination. This cult has also infiltrated the medical, psychology, psychiatry, and social services fields;[/b:8da462cb80] there are numerous professionals who will suggest or "prescribe" AA as a viable method of overcoming addiction. Many of these people are not even aware that alternative programs exist. Over 90% of the addiction rehabilitation centers in the United States are based on the 12-step program; very few offer an alternative. [b:8da462cb80]The mainstream media almost always portrays 12-step programs in a positive light. Public criticism of these programs creates the same kind of reaction as criticizing a major religion.[/b:8da462cb80]
 
As I brought up earlier, no one joins AA to achieve enlightenment; they join out of fear of dying, going insane, or losing what they have in life, or [b:8da462cb80]they were coerced into joining by the court system, employer, or family and friends. This enables AA to create a unique kind of recruiting and indoctrination.[/b:8da462cb80] Most cults start with promises, then introduce threats. AA starts with threats then introduces more threats. The goal of achieving "serenity" is overshadowed by the goal of not dropping dead from addiction. AA is a cult of necrophilia, a group of people who have become preoccupied with death. Jails, institutions, and death are said to be the end result of addictive drinking. It is common to hear a member say, "I've been in jails, I've been in institutions, there's only one more place to go."

Steve Hassan is wrong about AA. It is not just that he has misdiagnosed it as a relatively harmless group that does not fit the BITE model, he has also failed to recognize the political importance of AA as a target for anti-cult activism.
 
A major part of the frustration in dealing with political activism against cults is the amazing amount of power that these organizations tend to hold. They are usually backed by large amounts of money, legal expertise, and to varying degrees favorable public opinion. AA is a cult that has infiltrated every aspect of our society to the point that it is almost untouchable. The cult dogma has contaminated our culture so much that it is probably the biggest case to crack. [b:8da462cb80]Public exposure of AA as a cult is likely to have a serious effect on the court systems, the medical fields, the media, and the amount of power cults will be able to gain in the future. Exposing AA is the first step in creating a multitude of new and exciting methods of dealing with drug and alcohol dependence, and making a difference in our society[/b:8da462cb80].

___________________________________________________________

Furthermore, [b:8da462cb80]Colter[/b:8da462cb80], much of what you have posted only supports a premise that AA is "cult-like", or, indeed, a cult:

Quote

infallibility, or “The Sacred Science” – Cults teach that the chosen philosophy or experiential panacea forms the only possible path to salvation. Cults discourage critical and rational thinking. Persons who question or challenge what the cult offers are denied access or exiled.
Mystical Manipulation – Cults ascribe events to supernatural influences even where such influences do not exist.
Demand for purity – Cults have unreachably high standards for the behavior of their members.
Confession – Even trivial violations of the group’s demand for purity must be confessed immediately and thoroughly, often to a large group.
Loading the language – Cults redefine common words and use glib thought-terminating catchphrases as an answer to questions.

Let's take each of these one at a time:

[b:8da462cb80]Infallibility[/b:8da462cb80]: "rarely have we seen a person fail...., etc. etc.? Need I say more?

[b:8da462cb80]Mystical manipulation[/b:8da462cb80]: "the Promises?" Need I say more?

[b:8da462cb80]Demand for purity[/b:8da462cb80]: "The Fourth Step", total surrender to "this simple program", "The Primary Purpose";

Quote

"When anyone, anywhere, reaches out for help, I want the hand of A.A. always to be there. And for that: [b:8da462cb80]I am responsible[/b:8da462cb80]."

[b:8da462cb80]Confession[/b:8da462cb80]: The "Fifth Step". Need I say more?

[b:8da462cb80]Loading the language[/b:8da462cb80]: "Easy does it!", "Just let go!", "Dry Drunk", "SLIP"; (Sobriety loses its priority), SOBER; (Son of a bitch, everything's real), KISS; (Keep it simple, stupid), HALT; (hungry, angry, lonely and tired), "Utilize, don't Analyze", "One day at a time",
and on and on and on and on and on.........

Bonnie,

I posted the definition of "cult" because what I see happening all over society is that every movement that some other group does not like is labeled in the pejorative "a cut." The Roman Catholic Church did it with Protest-ant-ism, The Israelites did it to Jesus, all the Hebrew prophets were persecuted as crack pots, under the laws of Moses anyone who got out of line was stoned to death. Fundamentalist Islam wants to destroy the modern world because they don't like any religion but their own.

Under you loose definition of "cult" a high school biology class would be a cult. Theirs a central figure who is the authority, you must behave exactly as he demands, he tells you what to think rather then letting you figure it out, strict time constraints and "group think," anyone getting out of line is shamed or even punished with manipulative techniques designed to change behavior.

Maybe Bonnie the entire world is a cult, employers, coaches, TV networks, the basic family unit, it's everywhere. :wink:

I would agree that AA has influential "clicks" of varying orthodoxy etc. I've been there and done that. I came out the other side a stronger more mature person. It led me to actually read ALL of AA's literature to gain an understanding of what AA was when it started and how it has evolved. Sponsorship is one such institution that needs to be understood.

[b:8fd4cd3acb]If you want to define AA as a cult do you realize that the leader is God?[/b:8fd4cd3acb]

The professional community of intellectual liberal types have often been critics of AA out of professional jealousy. AA can do something that they can't, help the alcoholic get sober. My own GP is forever trying to give me codeine and other opiates for any problem, I'm like dude? He explains that Alcoholism has nothing to do with addiction to prescription drugs?????? The medical profession is filled with knuckle heads that don't have a clue. Every year I speak to a group of medical students at UVA. I tell them my whole story, what AA has done for me etc. and invariably I get, "so can you drink just one or two beers now?

As for the court system sentencing people to AA I've personally never liked it for the simple reason that we get people that don't want to be at an AA meeting. The courts have no official agreement with AA, they act on their own.

Colter

I'm getting that it really bothers you when people call AA a cult.

You say:

Quote

Under you loose definition of "cult" a high school biology class would be a cult.

I never posted my definition of the word "cult".

(I did point out that, by the definition [b:de810a78e8] you[/b:de810a78e8] posted, AA had many of those characteristics, and how.)

OK, let's not call AA a cult.

[b:de810a78e8]AA is an organization whose members and groups often use deceptive and coercive thought control techniques like "destructive religious and spiritual organizations" often do.[/b:de810a78e8]

I didn't like the fact that the courts, (supposedly in service to the American public, and under our control as voters), send people to AA.

[b:de810a78e8]Why does the AA organization allow the court system to force AA membership on a portion of the American Public?

I mean, AA membership is alledged, by AA, to be voluntary, for only those who "want it", right?

Seems like the AA organization could stop it if they wanted, by refusing to allow court-ordered AA inductees to attend meetings.[/b:de810a78e8]

Does the "Court System" force the [b:de810a78e8]organization of AA[/b:de810a78e8] to accept court-ordered inductees for membership in AA?

[b:4b18e2fae5]You state with a certain degree of conviction that the "professionals" are "jealous" of AA for curing alcoholics?[/b:4b18e2fae5]

Where did you come up with [b:4b18e2fae5]that[/b:4b18e2fae5] one?

[b:4b18e2fae5]Have you read the cure rates for alcoholics in AA?[/b:4b18e2fae5]

Statistics vary widely, to say the least.

The latest "statistics", (all of them are pretty much un-verifiable, even the statistics more favorable towards AA), claim that the alcoholic who receives [b:4b18e2fae5]no treatment at all[/b:4b18e2fae5] has the best chances for a cure!

And you say the leader of AA is [b:4b18e2fae5]God[/b:4b18e2fae5]?

AA is, by [b:4b18e2fae5]their own definition, on their own websites[/b:4b18e2fae5], a [b:4b18e2fae5]business[/b:4b18e2fae5]! A tax-exempt one, but a business nonetheless!

[b:4b18e2fae5]The AA organization has officers, employees, and balance sheets![/b:4b18e2fae5]

The presence of, indeed, even a belief in God is [b:4b18e2fae5]not[/b:4b18e2fae5] a requirement for AA membership.

The experience of "God" is highly subjective.