Well, .......
Since you asked..................
No, Subud is not pedantic about spelling at all.
It would be in line with a non-dogmatic, "You are You and God Love's You" approach if I am right, wouldn't it?
In any case, I don't mind if you want to send-up my contributions to this topic.
The pain remains the same, so does the gain. No pain, no gain they say.
I've had lot's of pain, lots of gain. Such is Life in Subud, and out of it.
So that's the luck of the draw.
It's all in the mind you know! But for the more materialistic, it's all in the mine- go dig it out!
Luv
Bronte

Dear Jupiter,
I wish I could encourage you to just do what you want. Be Normal.
Be yourself. No one can tell you what is right for you. Go and visit your friends, choose whatever friends you like. Enjoy your life. It is yours, not mine, not any one else's to dictate, limit or control. You can choose to let people hold you back, or you can ignore them.
You can do what you want with your abilities.
I think the "Desiderata" says it all for me, and is an inspiration with no boundaries.
I hope you will find it, read it, and let it help you find your path away from all the limitations life seems to have placed before you. Peace!

Hi. This is more or less a response chiefly to the postings by mxkitty. I found all the stuff here very interesting I have to say.

Mxkitty: you were perfectly reasonable and I was interested in what you were saying until you brought in the New World Order stuff; I'm pretty acquainted with it and I can see where this is going...

Firstly- back up the idea that Subud is connected to the NWO. This a massive distraction from the actual authentic criticism and dialogue taking place here; personally, I don't mind criticism of Subud, and certainly not from ex-members like Jupiter, but I do mind - forgive me for saying this- instant associations being made with something I am familiar with that are so clearly, to me, untrue. The NWO conspiracy theories, if there is truth in them, and I have met people who are very eloquent who believe in these ideas, have become so overused and often misapplied or re-modelled and re-processed through all the filters under the sun, that the subject has been tainted by abuse to the point of cliche. I'm sorry- wheres your evidence for your implication in the post concerning this?
The YouTube link showing Bapak in The Hague is there because its poster, Michael Rogge, who is Dutch, filmed him when he visited his own country. The links to the Bilderberg group and Queen Beatrix etc. and Subud come from where? They're in the same city or country. Queen Beatrix has nothing to do with Subud...
You're making an awfully weak point, and it evinces a desire to look for things that are already in the circulation of other similar-minded sites and liberally impress that onto something else. Subud is not secretive, and hardly highly organised: I speak from experience.
The YouTube film shows a visit by Bapak to other Subud members held in a Freemason hall which was rented for the occasion but that is because it was used to host the event, Subud is not a branch of Freemasonry nor does it share its Philosophy or literally anything at all notionally or otherwise with Freemasonry. Subud and freemasonry have literally nothing to do with each other; the only thing that comes to mind is that there might be a very small amount of membership overlap, although that might be considered "mixing" in some Subud circles.

Anyway, it is interesting for me to read things written here by people not in Subud who obviously are intelligent, but seem tempted to make connections where I know for a fact (unless I have been much-deceived) there are none; and because I know a lot of the NWO ideas floating around I can spot the nearly breathless linkage trying to be asembled. The Hague and its connections to the East India Trading Company, to Bilderberg etc., Illuminati bloodlines...

Now that does not mean that Subud is above / resists being criticized. Criticism, feedback et al are extremely important. I feel, like Bronte, quite a lot of anger drawn from my experiences with some of my subud "brothers and sisters", but that it is due to personality clashes which are common and occur everywhere. There has been some crystallisation of quote/unquote Subud thinking that the earlier members were drawn towards based on the things Bapak said, but a lot of that has been "processed-out", mainly because of the complaints of those who saw it for what it was. There is little organization and a dwindling, but usually very committed membership who represent the plurality and hues of humanity: Jews, Muslims, Christians, sikhs, Buddhists, Hindus. They don't all get on, everybody has different ideas etc., there are certainly some very charismatic types- no doubt the Sonoma group are of this ilk- who really adulterate a lot of stuff with Subud "ideas", and produe their own form of theology, if you will. These people are hardly the average Subud member, and if they are behaving like that- then yes, they are absolutely to be criticised.
It would not be unfair to say that they are unconsciously or not hijacking Subud and making it become a travestial cult version of what it was intended to be by Bapak, the founder (not "inventor", which is an interesting slant) of Subud.

I would second Bronte in recommending having a look at subudvision.org, because it will give you a real insight-its not a propaganda site, and I cannot think of a single Subud site of that sort- into what actually goes on in Subud- there is no silencing of dissenting voices or any other classic cultic cariacatures to be found here. Its pretty healthy stuff.

May I proffer a link or two to add to what I have said:

1. [www.subudvision.org]

This is a chart that shows the results of a survey within Subud that you can refer to if you like for future; it looks to me to be a pretty accurate reading of attitudes within the movement. Note: the two Questions and their results, near the bottom of the page: "How would you classify Subud", and "How do you think those outside of Subud perceive it?"

2. [www.subudvision.org]

This is one of my posts on Subudvision. I mention the Constantine article. Please read the responses if you have time.

Whether I am "reasonable" or not is not the question here. What is the point of attempting to describe me? An adjective is only that: an adjective.

I did not write that there is a connection between Subud and the NWO. I wrote that Subud would be a good candidate for the proponents of the NWO to use as a new world religion because Subud allows people from all faiths to participate.

I believe I was pretty clear on that point.

If you make some connection, or assume that I was making one that I did not spell out SPECIFICALLY, then it is your supposition, not mine.

Making things up about another person's ideas, assuming those things are true, and then using them to lambast the other person is fallacious and abusive, and those, Sir, are MY adjectives, thank you very much.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 02/24/2009 02:26AM by mxkitty.

It's been a while since I came back here. It's been about two and a half years now since I left and my perspectives have changed a lot. I do regret / feel differently to a lot of the things I wrote at the start of this post - 2007 - 2009 is a very long time to sit and think about things.

I had a lot of friends in Subud and I'm disappointed that I've lost them. I have called people up since leaving and asked if anyone wanted to go for a coffee, etc. Unfortunately every time I did that I would just invariably be asked when I was coming back to latihan. I think this is a shame. I meet up with people from old yoga classes and the conversations don't invariably come back to sun salutations.

Maybe a lot of what I wrote was opinion over fact; I don't know. I know that it's much, much harder for me to talk to my family members since I left. So much harder for them to talk to me, too. My own family have been questioned about the things I've written on here and elsewhere - I think it's common knowledge; I've brought a lot of pain to them. They have, on some level, been punished for MY outbursts, and I don't think that is fair.

No, I said nothing about NWO conspiracy theories. Those thoughts don't even enter my head. There's enough pain and confusion in the world without adding to it with other associations.

I guess, two years on from the start of this thread, all of that anger has dissipated and my own life has kicked back in. I do yoga and martial arts, I have a great job, I study for more qualifications in my spare time, I focus on my interest in Buddhism, write my novels (which no longer have anything to do with 'exit anger'), have just finished fixing up my flat and have a lot of energy. I still have a lot of anger which I try to deal with in a more creative way.

I don't blame anyone. Not now. I've thought about this WAY too much. I don't blame ANYONE - not in Subud, or anywhere else in my life. Everything in this entire world is just too interlinked. I do feel residue anger at things that happened but not at the people who caused them. My anger is at the structure that allowed those things to happen, but at the same time, when I WAS in Subud, I was grateful for it.

Truth be told I still don't understand a lot of what happened, so I try not to think about it. It doesn't seem important right now. Especially as I see the same power struggles played out in my karate dojo and in university halls. It's just, in THOSE instances, it doesn't swallow up a whole life - I'm a 3rd generation Subud child, I don't have a lifetime of friendship and family and associations with my martial arts class or with my lecturers. They are just people I meet with a few times a week and that's that. In theory, that's how it should be with Subud as well, but in practise it isn't. Really, if the latihan was something open like a meditation group then I probably would still attend. I just don't see the latihan as being exclusive: I write, I meditate, I talk to people from all over the world who have various spiritual experiences all the time, they're just a lot less guarded about their 'gifts.'

I'm grateful for SubudVision. I do read it often. It has helped dissipate a lot of my anger and I cringe that so many people have dealt with far worse with much better grace. It does hammer home that my experiences aren't exclusive. HAS the organisation changed as a result of it? I wouldn't know. I just have too many other things that absorb my time and energy now... I have no NEED for Subud, I have no NEED to sit and take the mean comments that I remember so well.

For me, martial arts training is parallel to Subud. Within Subud lingo it is largely considered 'mixing' - I follow the principles as well as the movements. I am better suited to it; I get less confused. The latihan has changed my concept of a spiritual experience and I take that with me, I try feel that force behind the latihan in everything I do - for THAT I am grateful. But testing, kejiwaan days, full-length skirts, obscure congress workshops, 'nafsu' and Javanese cooking aren't for me.

Still, I'm a lot calmer now. Bronte, I gave you a hard time, I'm sorry. Elias, if you ever want someone to talk to about some of your own experiences, then I'm right here - drop me a PM and I'll send you my e-mail address. I might write on Subud Vision one day, but any residue is at the structure, the power struggles in general, the control of it... and not the people in particular or their ideas in general.

I know that's a contradiction to things I've said earlier so I apologise. Hope that my 'recovery' journey makes sense.

Hi Jupiter

I'd be grateful if you wrote a little about "exit anger". I think I'm experiencing a lot of that myself. Some of it, I think, is directed at myself, at the fact that I could make excuses for so long, and that it took so long for the cognitive dissonance to collapse, leaving me with a truth that had been staring at me for a long, long time.

Pacifica

There is a subsection within this Web site that specifically is focused on recovery issues.

See [www.culteducation.com]

There is also a directory of resources for professional counseling at that same page.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Hi Jupiter, I am just reading through all the postings here about SUBUD. I have just been friends with one of the helpers at a SUBUD centre in Australia and she has been 'opened' since she was 17. She is now 31, manages one of the SUBUD 'enterprises', and her whole family is in SUBUD. She is pretty confused about feelings, logic (it doesn't seem to be possible to have a rational discussion with her about SUBUD, particularly not about the incompatibility of contradicting faiths, which SUBUD claims to unite under one roof). I would particularly like to talk to you about what happens in latihan. I am concerned for my friend as I feel that this practice is perhaps not as spiritually safe as its members suggest, nor that experiences necessarily come from God. What do you think? Also, why is the whole thing so secretive? I am used to going to church and anyone can just walk in and see what goes on for themselves. We have nothing to hide...

Hi Jupiter
I wrote you a message regarding a much earlier post, asking you to clarify about the latihan experience. After reading some more of your posts, I feel to say that you should only reply if you're ok with that and if it doesn't bring up the past in a horrible way. You are an absolute champion, I have soooo much respect for you, after what I have observed with my friend. She seems so very confused. Actually, I have tears welling up in my eyes as I write this, because I have some very difficult decisions to make, decisions that have a career-damaging effect on me in relation to SUBUD. I was never in it, so my decisions are never as huge as yours, but again: you have set yourself on the path to truth by leaving SUBUD, and no one can take that powerful decision and action away from you. Sending you my heartfelt prayers.

Hi Jazz3man!
I can tell you all about Subud. I was in it for 10 years before I left (from 1974 to 1984) and shortly after became a christian. I bet your friend is confused! Tell her to go on to the AntiSubud site! There is a comments page there she can go on to. You dont have to register or anything. There are two of us christians there and every day we go on and talk about the ( were both in Subud 10 years) latihan and the truth about it.
It is definitely a cult though of course THEY dont see it like that. It does produce a lot of confusion as well so i can completely understand how she feels. I have a new site which I am presently waiting to appear on google search called ' ex-subud.webs.com' which I hope will be helpful to subud people trying to find a way out. Also have just started a blog called ex-subud but thats not coming up on google search yet either.
Basically Subud was started by an Indonesian called Muhammed Subuh Sumohadiwidjojo, ( they call him Bapak, means father) He was a muslim and subud has a very strong Islamic theology underpinning it which came out thru his teachings. Many people convert to Islam in it.It spread thru the western world in the late fifties thru a guy called John Bennet who brought Bapak to England in 1957 and introduced him to a Gurdjieff group who all took it on board and became the first subud group.
Bapak travelled all over the world as groups were established teaching on it ect. Bapak in a very clever technique tells people he is Gods last complete perfect, prophet coming after Muhammed and Jesus. He does this by telling his story and experiences and then saying, "but you dont have to BELIEVE me , this is MY EXPERIENCE. As if theyre not going to believe him! Everyone in Subud implicitly BELIEVES EVERYTHING BAPAK EVER SAID!!
Bapaks story is this. One night he was walking down the road and a ball of light came down and filled him. He then went home and for a 1000 nights did this spiritual exercise which was a result of this ball of light entering him and hardly slept but also was able to manage a normal job as well during the day(he was a clerk.) He was told this "contact" was from God and to give it to anyone who asks for it but not to advertise it.So Subud groups dont advertise but I think thats about to change as a declining membership is bringing about some new strategies.
Bapak died in 1987 but now his daughter Ibu runs the show as after his death she had a "dream" that Bapak told her to take over the leadership. ( read about this on Wikapedia)
Ok so back to the "contact" Pak Subuh(Bapak) decided to call this contact the "Latihan kedjiwaan" Indonesian for spiritual exercise. He recommended people do it twice a week. He claimed it will purify you of all your accumulated impurities ( also of your ancestors) and is the essence of all religions. So you can keep your religion and practice it too so he says but examine its theology (which it does have though it CLAIMS to have no teaching , a BIG CON!) and you will find it is completely at odds with Biblical Evangelical Christianity besides orthodox Islam and Judaism as well

This latihan is given to people by what is called an 'opening'.You have to wait 3 months for this after applying.Two helpers ( people appionted to open people and help them with testing ect , will explain that next) stand in the room with the new candidate and after quieting their mind for 15 mins they start doing the latihan. This consists of opening up your mind and completely surrendering to this spirit and letting your body, mind and tongue be completely subject to this 'spirit' My first latihan was very powerful. I was literally thrown from one end of the room to the other and started singing and speaking in tongues ect and praising Allah.
Because of this very real 'experience' I was convinced it was of God. My knowledge of the Christian religion was pretty sparse having been previously a catholic so all I knew about God was he was supposed to be a God of love.Well everyone seemed pretty loving so I figured this must be it .
I met my husband in it as you are encouraged to marry in it and we travelled and met all the groups in Australia living in various places for periods of months sometimes several years. We went to national congresses and one world congress ( Canada, Toronto 79) as well. We knew many people in it and have recently re-established contact with some of them for the purpose of educating them to its pitfalls.Your whole life revolves around it if you are in it.
All your life decisions are guided by 'Testing' This is when you ask helpers to test for you. This is done by the helpers asking a question in their 'latihan' and then getting an answer ,often by raising of hands //arms for 'yes' and hands/arms down for 'no'. Also helpers get 'feelings' or visions which will then be relayed to the member so they can be guided by God to do the right thing ect
Many people have what is called 'Crises" where they will have severe mental disturbances . This was thought to be as a result of doing too much latihaning. Theres more to it but thats the basics. Hope this has been helpful. Its hard for people to come out as usually whole families have been in it for generations now . You lose your whole social network and support systems and have to re-establish one. Also its confusing because you feel as though you are leaving God behind. The only solution as far as I can see is to offer lots of support and "PRAY' with these dear people. Point out the truths in the bible and tell them God really cares about them and will answer prayer. Take them to church and help them make new friends and show them genuine caring christian fellowship. A lot of them are just lost lonely souls looking for LOVE.