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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: September 30, 2007 12:40AM

I just wanted to thank destinyawaits and Lady Pleiades for both of your replies. I'm having a really hard time right now, I guess my self esteem isn't up to much and yesterday I had to go to one of their old cult properties to sort out an ongoing issue. I had been doing really well but going back was very triggering and I still feel shaky, in my shoulders and legs. I thought I'd seen the last of them but I know that I haven't. I know I'm going to get a phone call tonight and that scares me. Destinyawaits you're right, CBT isn't enough - it has helped immensely but I just can't "believe" in it enough to work. Right now I'm unemployed and can't get a job - I finished my Masters a month ago, and it ended badly. I'm trying not to be too negative but I guess I just feel really vulnerable. I don't know how long it will take to get out of my system. Lady Pleiades (beautiful name btw - I was looking at that very cluster three nights ago), I too pray for the children still left in my cult - I often see their faces when I close my eyes.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: September 30, 2007 12:47AM

Actually just looking back over this whole thread I can see how far I've come - it's hard sometimes when you just want to curl up under a blanket and disappear. Sometimes I feel like leaving Subud was like swimming away from an isolated island - I managed to get through the deepest water without drowning and onto dry land. Unfortunately the "dry" land is tidal mudflats, and its exhausted walking miles and miles through sinking mud. Sometimes that endless daily drudgery feels harder than the swimming. I'm in no immediate danger any more but my goal still feels far out of reach, and every so often the tide turns sharply and I fall flat on my face in the salty water. Get up, keep walking, keep moving heavily through the ceaseless mud, just kind of hoping that I'll "get somewhere," knowing that if I'd never left Subud I would never have had a chance to go anywhere. It's just such a long and dull and lonely journey. Especially as I can see the distant lights on the distant beaches, of all the normal people succeeding in life, laughing together and having fun...

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: starry ()
Date: September 30, 2007 12:56AM

It takes a huge amount of courage to do what you've done, and to get as far as you have done.

Be kind to yourself, be gentle with yourself, look after yourself...don't expect too much from yourself and push yourself too hard. You've already come a long way.

When the fear strikes know that it will's a feeling, [i:e010290a83]just[/i:e010290a83] a feeling, and not everything. Ride out the storm and look to get through to the other side. Once you know you can get through to the other side once, you know that you'll be able to get through to the other side again. This will make you stronger and give you the strength to get through the bad times.

Sometimes the physical symptoms of fear are just as frightening as the feelings themselves, it might be worth looking into what happens to you physically when you are very afraid...

Sometimes it's hard to really trust other people at this point. So most of all, trust have that instinct to survive in you.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: September 30, 2007 04:58PM

Thanks Starry. Umm, I feel a lot better today. I had a hard phone conversation with my mum last night where she told me some things that had happened in my early childhood with other cult members that I'd never known about. That was pretty hard to take in, but I've got my husband who thinks they're all absolutely crazy, which helps. I had to get up early this morning with panic attacks (you're right about the physical symptoms), but I've just done some writing (am kind of writing a novel) and some exercise and I feel a bit better. I just feel suffocated by everything and everyone sometimes. The negative thoughts and the loneliness and the anger and the inability to trust. It sucks, I just wish I could rationalise everything that has happened, but it's irrational and that just drives me mad.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: starry ()
Date: September 30, 2007 05:34PM

Glad to hear you're feeling better today.

Of course you find it hard to trust people...but that will come back with time, slowly, without you even noticing it. And you'll find that you become a very good judge of character, you'll know straight off if you can trust someone, if that person is a good and wholesome person. Be patient with yourself.

Have you tried keeping a journal? I've found it an amazing experience, a great way of working through things and very freeing too.

I was thinking about all this as I was walking home yesterday evening. One thing that came to me, is this is an incredible period of change for you. You're reasessing everything - about your past, about people that you knew, people who you trusted and believed in, about your, your beliefs and your place in the world.

It takes time for all this process to work through, for you to come up with the answers that work for you. If things are in a state of flux I believe that's a good means stuff is going on in your mind, you're thinking, sorting, working through.

So don't be afraid of that feeling, welcome it, embrace it, it means you're alive and thinking, questioning things, moving forwards.

If there are no answers for you at this moment, just an empty space and a feeling of panic, a feeling of having to fill the empty space with something, that the answers will come, keep looking, keep thinking, sorting through. Having that empty space is OK too.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: starry ()
Date: September 30, 2007 05:47PM

Just thought...if you enjoy writing, you might like Julia Cameron's books.

The classic is [i:8bd7339725]The Artist's Way[/i:8bd7339725]. It's an amazing book, a real stepping stone on the way to self discovery and it's packed with ideas for self nurturing (I'd say that's its basic premise). She has loads of fun stuff you can do too that will help you connect with who you are.

The book is like a course, but I'd suggest you just dip in and take what you want from it.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Jupiter ()
Date: September 30, 2007 11:40PM

I love the Artists Way, I think it is an incredible book. I like the way it encourages you to be more intuitive and fluid in work and life. I first read a copy about five years ago and since then it has always remained on the bookshelf closest to my favourite armchair :)

The thing I'm struggling with so much right now is all the apparent holes in my life, all the experiences I feel like I'm missing. I'm angry at all the years that have been stolen from me and panicking about the time I feel I can't catch up with. I can't get a job, and there is no way of explaining to prospective employers that the reason I've missed seven years' worth of work and experience is because of my involvement in a high-demand organisation. I don't know how I feel about the time I've lost to them, nothing can ever bring it back and I'm scared I'll never be able to bridge the experience gap between myself and most other people my age. Maybe I should stop trying? I'm just scared that I'll never be able to do the things I want to do in life because of all my mistakes - deep down I know that's not true but it's still a persistent thought.

I think that the antidote to any setback is to just get up and DO things - it's hard, but even just going for a run along the beach or reading a book on a favourite subject is just a case of "filling the well," as Julia Cameron would call it. My cult experiences have certainly provided me with huge amounts of interesting observations for my writing, and the dreamer in me I guess is still there too. Sometimes everything seems like such a tangle - when I want to just lay down and run over past events over and over again I just have to get up and distract myself until I'm strong enough to face things. I'm just scared because I don't know what's going to happen next, and how long recovery will take.

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: starry ()
Date: October 01, 2007 12:31AM

I've learnt so much from [i:9533888bf2]The Artist's Way[/i:9533888bf2], it marked a real turning point in my life. I've come so far since I first started dabbling with it and I know I've still got further to go with it.

What is it that you'd like to do? Perhaps you can find a job where people will value you for who you are [i:9533888bf2]now[/i:9533888bf2], and not the person who you [i:9533888bf2]think[/i:9533888bf2] you should be at this age ([i:9533888bf2]ie[/i:9533888bf2] compared to how you think your contemporaries are faring).

Perhaps that means imagining your ideal job and going to volunteer there for an afternoon a week? I've used this method and it was a stepping stone to a whole new life for me (and I eventually got a job working for this place and these people).

Please try not to think of anything as a mistake. That was just the path you travelled on for that time. You certainly wouldn't make that choice again, but you're who you are now because of the choices you made and the experiences you went through.

Remember to value who you are now - you have an incredible range of experiences, you are working towards getting a clearer vision of who you are and what you want to do. That's an ongoing process, it's never ending. That's the beauty of being, you, people are ever changing, from day to day, week to week. I'm still turning this one over despite having an established career in the field I really want to be in. With every month that passes, every experience, I'm getting a clearer and clearer vision of who I am, who I'm not, where I want to go, what I'd like to try next, what I dream about, who I want to work with.

You've already found some things that you love, that are yours, that define you. I've loved (and still love) writing too. Like you, I'm an observer...I love thinking about what makes people tick, trying to work out how they think and their 'mechanism'. I spent a lot of time disecting the situation I had been in, the person I was when I got into that situation and the person that caused me the greatest harm. It felt like a very healing process.

Similarly, try and see that fear you are feeling is not a bad means you're alive, you're stepping out of your comfort zone, you're breaking new ground. Doesn't Julia Cameron say something interesting about fear? A little bit of fear is a good thing. It's energy and you can do something very positive with that energy.

You will be strong enough to face things, just take your time. And you'll know when the time is right, don't force yourself. It might happen in stops and'll think things over for a while, and reach a certain point. Then you might just 'live' for a while (and I'd suggest doing the stuff you love, as that gives you more strength and a greater sense of your own self and self esteem than anything). Then something else will happen and you'll spend some time thinking things over some more. Your feelings about what happened might change, or maybe not. There's no right and wrong, it's [i:9533888bf2]your[/i:9533888bf2] story.

My situation was probably different from yours, but 13 years on I'm still thinking things over and reassessing. The first big chunk of dealing with it all happened quite quickly and maybe lasted a couple of years. Then I had a spell of 'living' (met my husband, got married, massive career change...even though I wasn't really sure what I really wanted to do, and it took me a good few years to even come up with a plan!). I've had a major reassessment of events and the people involved in the past couple of years. It's still ongoing, but I feel it's coming to an end now. I don't kow what's going to happen next, but it doesn't worry me, I know I'll be fine.

I know you'll be fine too :)

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Lady Pleiades ()
Date: October 01, 2007 10:52PM

To Jupiter and Starry too

I just want to say that you both are able to describe the experience and the recovery so well. I remember the few books I was able to find on the topic ([u:792e5928ee]Insane Therapy[/u:792e5928ee] by Marybeth Ayella and Margaret Singer of course) were such a relief to read and think "yes, that's what they're doing and this is how I feel!" Those were really the catalysts that helped me to leave finally so I encourage you both to get your experiences in print somehow!

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six months and struggling.
Posted by: Bronte G ()
Date: October 04, 2007 06:50AM

I have read with some horror the sad story of "Jupiter", who was vastly
distressed by a life-long and family-wide encounter with Subud.

I have, at 62, had a life time of Subud, and feel most upset that those
experiences can not be adequately addressed by Subud people through your site.
When I first heard of Subud, in 1961, I believed it was a contact, or an
awakening, of the Holy Spirit within. I approached it, as Christian
believer, in that way.
One day, in my late teens, I lost my temper at my father, stepmother,
and sister.
I was left alone then, by them.
I stood alone, and prayed out loud "God, may I have the contact with
Subud, so I may lose my bad temper"
I fell down to the floor, crying, and immediately stood up, empty of my
anger, or any other emotion.
The founder of Subud told me that this experience was indeed "Subud"

Now, outside of the Subud organisation for over nine years, I find my
prayers, and social interaction with various friends, help me cope.

I can not blame Subud for all my problems.
I do not believe that "Jupiter" should.
I do not believe that Subud is being treated fairly in the discourse
occurring on your site.
People hurt people. And people help people. May you get lots of that help!

I wish I could make some kindly, helpful, comment to Jupiter, which
would enable a calm and positive outlook to develop, so only a
constructive future would arise for him/her.

What on earth were/are all those people doing, including Jupiter?
The latihan, or exercise, of Subud, is, for me, an exercise of the
individual's own "Praying to God", and all other things that the mind
chooses to do are extraneous. Despite being practiced in a group, it is a solitary thing, for group and solitary times.
On my own, at home, I stand and begin by a prayer "lord, may you help me to do what you want me to do, and be what you want me to be".
That, in essence for me, is the function of Subud, which is then meant to
enable any person to get to know and understand themselves more, and
connect with God within, just as the Quakers and may others believe they do.
So why do people on your site see such a need to be so condemning of Subud?
Subud is for each individual to benefit from, not for "control" by
others, as Jupiter seems to have found. Even I found people who want to
Control others. But it's just them, not Subud.
"Controllers" are everywhere, in all religions, in school, in work, in
hobby groups, in life wherever you turn, so it is no surprise that they
are "in Subud".
I puzzle about the things that happened to you. They don't seem like Subud to me, just human nastiness, like I found year after year, and still do. That is why I am "outside" of the Subud organisation, whether I stay that way for what is left of my life or not.

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