Sometimes I wonder if the info about cults should be taught in school. There are just too many evil people in this world. I'm just now coming to grips with what a horrible, disgusting person JRS was. Some days it still gets to me. Fifteen years after leaving. In the seventies, I was married to his nephew. I had an arranged marriage in 1971 and an arranged divorce in 1978. I was groomed and treated disrespectfully by "the apostle to the kingdom". And then I was tossed aside when I was no longer part of the family. Sometimes I still wonder how he fooled so many people so thoroughly.

Well said, Reep.
I had one personal encounter with JRS in the mid-70's. I was prepping the exterior of the house he owned for painting, in the vicinity of Redlands, and he showed up one day. At the time I was working for a local church member who had small painting business. Although JRS obviously saw me, he didn't say a word, and just walked into the house. He was inside for a short while, then left, driven off by somebody. That was my brief, personal experience with "The Apostle of Love.'

The kicker came sometime after the painting project was completed, and I had yet to be paid (along with another worker, also a church member). At the end of a weeknight service Gary, from the pulpit, thanked my employer for "donating" his painting services to John. WTF? I talked to the employer after the service and he claimed no arrangement had been made to make this a "love offering." He insisted he was as surprised as I was.

Of course like many church members, I was doing everything I could to make ends meet. And yet in spite of being subjected to this blatant grifting, I still remained devoted to the teachings of the "living word."

Reep wrote:
Sometimes I still wonder how he fooled so many people so thoroughly.

He was no doubt a skilled conman, and many of us got played while we were young and naïve. Eventually our mind and spirit/soul were captured by the daily exposure we had to this intolerant, top-heavy culture. Anyway, I hope what has been written in this forum over so many years, people sharing their experiences, will help vulnerable people recognize and resist religious authoritarians and their methods.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/13/2023 08:09AM by changedagain.

In the seventies, I was married to his nephew. I had an arranged marriage in 1971 and an arranged divorce in 1978.

Jesus--an arranged marriage and an arranged divorce.

Changedagain wrote:

"The kicker came sometime after the painting project was completed, and I had yet to be paid (along with another worker, also a church member). At the end of a weeknight service Gary, from the pulpit, thanked my employer for "donating" his painting services to John. WTF? I talked to the employer after the service and he claimed no arrangement had been made to make this a "love offering." He insisted he was as surprised as I was."

Unfortunately, this does not surprise me in the least. JRS' sister and her husband (my in-laws) were the same. It took me awhile to catch on. They claimed that people voluntarily gave them free goods and services ALL the time. But I'm pretty sure that they were guilted into it, at the very least.

The ability to get church members to voluntary provide things for you, that you otherwise would have to pay for--without having to directly ask/tell them. Top leadership managed to master that skill.
#UpwardFlow

Reep wrote:
They claimed that people voluntarily gave them free goods and services ALL the time. But I'm pretty sure that they were guilted into it, at the very least.

Pursuing a connection with the pope...
A few posts from December 2013

Posted by: paleface
Date: December 07, 2013 05:44AM

I find it interesting that Gary and Marilyn are talking up the present Pope so much. At some point, you would think the LW sheep would put two and two together and notice that G&M are not following the Pope’s leading in taking a life that isn’t so dripping with wealth. The Pope refuses to wear the red slippers or ride in the Pope-mobile. Instead, he drives an old Renault. Do you think G&M might take a hint from this and sell off their million dollar homes and expensive automobiles? Nah ! Probably never gonna happen.

Posted by: changedagain
Date: December 06, 2013 08:06PM

It would be more than fitting if the pope granted them an audience, and then rebuked them for their callous disregard for the welfare of those under their charge.

Posted by: paleface
Date: December 10, 2013 11:57AM

With all the Pope attention, one thing you can bet on is that Gary and Marilyn are telling the churches that all of this happened because they (G&M) created it with their prayers

Posted by: changedagain
Date: December 10, 2013 05:23PM

Yes--and I hope the pope is humble enough to realize how dependent he is on their prayers.

Posted by: Saw enough
Date: December 11, 2013 08:13PM

One of Gary Hargrave's rationales for why the Living Word Fellowship didn't have more of a worldwide outreach was that they were like Noah -- just by building an ark in his back yard he changed an age. At one point he said, "How do you know our prayers weren't responsible for Nelson Mandela?"

After their recent period of fasting and praying for the country just prior to the US elections, Gary asked the congregation, "How many of you were disappointed in the results of the election?" Most of the congregation, including Marilyn Hargrave raised their hands. Gary said, "See this is just what I was worried about? You were praying for the will of God and now you're getting hit in your faith because the candidates you wanted to win may not have won." But he encouraged them that they weren't just called to control the outcome of elections in the United States -- they were actually called to control the nations. That is a much bigger feather in their cap.

Many cults thrive on the knowledge that of all the special groups in the world, they are among the most chosen.

Posted by: paleface
Date: December 13, 2013 02:43PM

I used to think it was all carefully calculated to fool the sheep. But G&M seem to believe a lot of this stuff. Such hubris. These guys are batshit crazy!

Posted by: jhorning
Date: December 17, 2013 06:08PM

The pope is just the "flavor of the month". We could make a list of all the "prophetic" fails tlwc aka the walk aka ctlw aka "this thing" has experienced.

Here are just a few:
The silver mine. Gathering wheat and honey for survival. (Yep, I went along to get along with that one).The little people, Joel's Army, and the third generation. Also wasn't R,S,& R supposed to take over show business? The law office was going to rule the legal world. What ever happened to Golden Threads? Fineline Graphics? Impact? All of these were important in their day, but there was/is something in the hearts and thinking of the members of the living word fellowship, that exaggerates their standing in the world.

Saw Enough:
At one point he said, "How do you know our prayers weren't responsible for Nelson Mandela?"

Because none of our prayers worked before?

And if controlling the nations doesn't work out, we can always aim higher, and set our sights on controlling...
Nevermind. I'm getting ahead of myself.
/s

Saw Enough wrote:
But he encouraged them that they weren't just called to control the outcome of elections in the United States -- they were actually called to control the nations.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/17/2023 02:19AM by changedagain.

In retrospect, an appropriate response to the usual question following the Sunday morning sermon:

'Apostle': And everyone said...?

Congregation: RETURN OUR TITHE MONEY!

I remember speaking briefly with Vere in the late 70's, and getting the impression that he was a good man. Sadly, his fate is not surprising:

Posted by: larry bobo
Date: August 08, 2018 10:41AM

Onion said, "Larry Cotton was indeed included with G & M as a leadership role after JRS died. But Marilyn was onto Gary immediately and there were rumors it started long before JRS died. I have no information on that.'

My sister is married to Vere Thomas' son, Bruce. As a result, I've heard Vere's version of John's last days before he died. Vere also passed away a few years ago. Some posting here may know that John asked to see Vere many times in his last days, but G & M would not allow it. Finally, when Vere was allowed to see John, he was not allowed to be alone with him. Some thought this was because John might give Vere a leadership role, since they had been close since the early days. Vere was concerned about the way G & M were constantly huddled off together and thought their relationship was very inappropriate. There was obviously some future planning going on, even though they were both married to someone else at the time. Vere was sent out of the country, and when he returned was stripped of everything he had built in Des Moines, including a house that had been given to him personally by one of the members. He moved back to Hawaii with nothing.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2023 12:52AM by changedagain.