The thing I dislike most about the heavy drinking, which is what it invariably led to...which were these weird revelation/confrontation sessions. People would take it upon themselves to "speak a word" to another person, usually rebuking that person for supposedly not be given enough to the pastor--who, it was said (often), possessed the heart and mind of Gary and Marilyn. I did everything I could to disappear when this type of weirdness started...and actually got quite good at it. Most of the time I would end up at home, dazed and confused, eventually drinking a few beers to unwind (admittedly, a lower level, but one that worked for me at the time).

One thing I do know, that no matter what the people in the LWF have invested, God can restore that and more if they walk away from what they know in their heart to be false. The real God does not fail, and He rewards those who seek Him.

They need to ask themselves what has worked and what has not. The so called "words" they have received have failed. Their false "Christ in the earth" has turned out to have feet of clay. If they stay with that, they will only lose more.

By saying the 70's were a wonderful time, I'm not implying they were the seeds of good fruit. John said many things that ended up being false, and nobody held him accountable. I believe the foundation of TLWF needs to be examined in the light of Jesus' teaching - and there are many inconsistencies had we dug a little deeper. Personally, I let charisma come before the truth of the scriptures, and it was a painful lesson. There was a time when I thought drugs were a wonderful thing too, but I eventually learned differently. If it had not been a fun time for me, I would not have been enticed to pursue it further. Jesus' instruction to look at the fruit - which takes a while to produce - has far more meaning to me now.

I've mentioned at other times that a well-informed pastor friend of mine had been fascinated by the Latter Rain movement. It it initially had the appearance of a real move of God's Spirit. However, it ended up being so damaging to those involved and producing such bad fruit - but it took a decade or so for that to happen. It's been a case study for many leaders concerned about not ending up in the ditch. Although he was not familiar with TLWF, he was familiar with many of it's teachings and also thought they had originated in the Latter Rain movement. Of course the "Door Opener Apostle" and "Lamp of Israel" were a new twist.

There is a difference of opinion as to what or who influenced JRS more, his disease, whether or not he had a bad first marriage as he told his flock.

For certain, something changed JRS in that very period that Marilyn came OPENLY on the scene as his wife. Of course, that could be a coincidence, and it could be that the apostolic company just right at that moment became a detrimental influence.

But you know, for me to blame Marilyn, or for others to blame APCO, is always just taking the blame away from where it rightfully sits. John chose the APCO members, and John chose Marilyn, and JOHN is squarely behind what was started on his watch, including setting those "ministries" in motion by setting them in and putting over the people in the first place.

Lily Rose said: "If the bubble now is to believe that M will assist TLWF in their pursuit of pulling down the Kingdom, that Word too will fall to the ground in time,,,""

I wonder if the good people in Living Word ever really look into their bible and check to see if what they are taught is right. I know that it is important to them to read the version of the bible that JRS said was the best, in fact, that is the only version sold at Living Word store. But if it is important to buy and carry a certain bible, why is it so important if you never read it?

I would like someone to give me chapter and verse that says that anyone is going to "bring down the kingdom" or "bring on the Kingdom" or "bring forth the kingdom. If it is there, then educate me, because I would like to get started "bringing forth the kingdom of God,",,wait, the Kingdom came forth in 1979, did it not? Then if it is here, what is everybody trying to bring forth now?

Apostle Dog Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> >
> But you know, for me to blame Marilyn, or for
> others to blame APCO, is always just taking the
> blame away from where it rightfully sits. John
> chose the APCO members, and John chose Marilyn,
> and JOHN is squarely behind what was started on
> his watch, including setting those "ministries" in
> motion by setting them in and putting over the
> people in the first place.

________________________________________________________________

AD maybe the reason we blame others is because 30+ years later it is still hard to accept that John could have appointed or commissioned ministries that would end up hurting so many in the congregation for whom John had said he had faith...John said he had faith for all men. It's such a disconnect. But I think you are on to something....John with his gift of knowledge chose the ministries to succeed him.

Larry Bobo wrote in part: "The 70’s were overshadowed by John’s vision of breaking into the kingdom in 1979... and the coming world destruction. We were into survival training including food storage and studying herbs, the silver mine that would release finances for the word to be published, cutting off family ties, focusing away from personal higher education and careers and working in kingdom businesses..."

Gee Larry, when you put it that way it sounds bad. ;o) I'm part of the 1970-'84 Graduating Class. I concur with what you and lily rose have posted. Back then it was Peter W., Bob L,and others who were around JRS. It went sour for me when the "3rd. generation" was set in as leaders.

I was naïve enough to think that, when I went out to Los Angeles to that meeting that Marilyn called, that perhaps JRS had left some directives that made sense, that maybe we would have had a democratic process installed in the Living Word Fellowship government, that maybe there would even have been a governing body set up where there was actually no leader, where people are voted in and nobody has the rule of the thing for life. But that illusion was quickly dissolved when Marilyn started talking in the very first service. I wish you all had been there. There was this nerdy looking dude with a movie camera duck walking beside her, I have no idea why, I mean I have never seen any film of her from that angle, I doubt if there was any film in it, he was probably just showing how much he adored her. It was amazing to watch, because she walked all over the church while she was speaking, and this guy waddled along with her the whole time.

I think it was before Marilyn showed up that Mike Shimmerhorn (sorry for the spelling) anyway, that he got up front and said “I don’t know this Jesus dude, I know John, etc., etc.,” I knew then and there that I was about to get an edumacation of how things were done in L.A. Then later Marilyn walked in like a movie star, all decked out and she seemed to be on ludes, which didn’t bother me at all, especially since her husband had just died a while back. I had never seen anybody so egotistical in my life. I looked around the place and the look on the faces there absolutely shocked me, the way they cowed down to her. And even Bill Maybe being quizzed and how he crawled, it was sickening. I guess it turns out that the people that I liked and respected were job scared, they wanted their paychecks and they had to kiss up to do it. I remember Bill Maybe answering when Marilyn point blank asked him if he had a revelation of her as the successor of John. He said “I am going to repent until I get the revelation of it.” Those words would make a great T shirt, along with “I don’t know this Jesus dude,,,,,”

No, Living Word Fellowship is like lots of churches, on the level of the leadership, they are just as much a money grabbing, climbing, kissing up, egotistical bunch of clowns on top. The people in the pews are one thing,many are seeking God with all their hearts, but the clowns behind the pulpit, that Is another. I guess I have to say it, but there are three typed of people in this world that I do not trust, PIMPS, POLITICIANS, AND PREACHERS.

Apostle Dog. I remember Harold Bailey talking about Bill Mabey crawling. Harold said, “It’s not of God,” but that was all. Harold and his family quit the church when he got back from California and moved to Tucson, AZ with no forwarding address except for those he felt he could trust. I wish Harold would have explained it in more detail (scripturally – he was a scriptural giant to many of us) so that the rest of the young uninformed congregants in SLC could have had a chance at making an informed life altering decision.

LR: "AD maybe the reason we blame others is because 30+ years later it is still hard to accept that John could have appointed or commissioned ministries that would end up hurting so many in the congregation for whom John had said he had faith...John said he had faith for all men. It's such a disconnect. But I think you are on to something....John with his gift of knowledge chose the ministries to succeed him."

This point is important to my seeking closure. I'm still working on a clear understanding on where "it came off the rails".

I was one of the "little people", so I don't have first hand knowledge - only what I was told at the time by others who did - and what I remember from LW tapes (hundreds of them.)

John's preaching was quite schizo. in the late 70's. On the one hand he was preaching love, forgiveness and reconciliation. On the other hand he encouraged death prayers against real and imagined enemies.

There was not munch "turning the other cheek" in John Robert Stevens. He preached inclusiveness and "faith for all men" on one hand and on the other you were either "in" or you were "out" and if you were "out" you were really "out". In hindsight, a great deal of false humility.

He delivered Words about the not elevating the man (I'm just a vessel), then when the adoration was balant, he was obviously feeding off it... Children don't learn what they hear, they learn what the see... God bless the little ones and RIP John, we loved you anyway.