I received a PM today from Paleface that gave me pause, so I am going to do the Bill Maybee crawl and stop posting for a season.

Paleface, your contribution to this forum has been enormous. You're the wind beneath my wings, but please don't PM again.

I love all of you. See you later.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/06/2015 07:20AM by lily rose.

AD:


There has been quite a bit of discussion amongst our group of ex-pats regarding the variety of abuses within TLW, and interestingly enough, many of them can be traced back to doctrinal justifications.

-- Feeling chosen and separating yourself apart
-- Maintaining cultural purity
-- Designating relationships
-- Spiritual hierarchy
-- Financial support of said hierarchy
-- Unquestioned obedience/submission
-- Praying for the destruction of ‘x/y/z’
-- Condemnation of certain sexual practices
-- Extreme discipline
-- Separation from family
-- Etc., etc., etc. . . .

When one ‘believes’ they are ‘doing the will of God’ in enforcing any of the above (and any that were left out), LOVE tends to take a backseat, especially if the Kool-Aid that has been drunk was spiked with the ‘violence to take the Kingdom’.

This list, of course, is not all-inclusive, nor does it cover all the abuses that have taken place over the decades, but it does cover an alarming number. It represents just how far afield Christianity can go in losing the message of the GOSPEL of LOVE, which was so elegantly stated as LOVE GOD, LOVE YOUR BROTHER--period.

lily rose Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I received a PM today from Paleface that gave me
> pause, so I am going to do the Bill Maybee crawl
> and stop posting for a season.
>
> Paleface, your contribution to this forum has been
> enormous. You're the wind beneath my wings, but
> please don't PM again.
>
> I love all of you. See you later.


Well come back soon. I really enjoy disagreein with you and learning from you. Sometimes I think I need to take a break myself, I started to a while back, but somebody said something that sparked my interest... Until later..

One thing I have noticed from working at many different companies in the same trade, that each of those companies seem to take on the personality of the owner of that company. Churches are no different, each movement takes on the personality of the leader.

If you trace the history of the Walk, from early on to now, you will see that it had the personality of the leader. I believe the one factor that changed the personality of the leader, and APCO, was the influence of one person, as that one person got more and more of a stronghold in the life of the leader, I am speaking of Marilyn, John changed. Marilyn was put over the tapes in 1963 according to what I have read, so for quite some time she was an influential member. According to many here, there was a change, a drastic change along about the end of the 70s where the church got more disciplinary and controlling, the divorce and remarriage, the divorces started happening all over. When John died, it REALLY changed.

I will cut it short, I think we will see now what sort of man Gary Hargrave is, (or whatever leader takes his place) without the influence of Marilyn, we will see what sort of church the Living Word Fellowship is. Walk 3 will be transformed now into something else entirely. That is my prediction. And you can all look back and notice that it has always been Marilyn that was the biggest factor.

The head of the church is Jesus Christ, the head of a cult, is the leader himself. I think that is the largest factor by far to separate a cult from a sect or a movement or a denomination from a church, is who is exalted, Christ or the leader.

I’ve been quietly following this forum, as well as a predecessor, for about seven years. When I first found the previous forum, there was no official Living Word presence on the Web. Google would not even reveal the location of Shiloh. Now, Living Word has a series of Web sites dedicated to JRS and the Living Word, and advertises itself as a mainstream, legitimate church.

I originally found that forum because I’d been asking myself some hard questions. I wanted to know about my spiritual origins. I’d never heard of William Branham, and didn’t know much about the Latter Rain. I certainly learned, quickly.

I’ve learned a lot from some of the level heads. Larry Bobo is one of those. I also enjoyed the posts by Mischa Safdie that someone referenced recently.

Last week’s events have added new fervor to the debate, and prompted me to make this one-time post. Maybe the perspective could help someone else make sense of it all. Clearly, I’m not the only one asking myself hard questions.

I was in a Walk church way down South from about 1975 to perhaps 1982. Our church extracted itself from the Walk, beginning before John’s death. I think it became evident at some point that things were not going to continue on the straight and narrow around the time when Marilyn’s voice started become more common and more strident on those cassette tapes. Our leaders started another church some distance from here, and our local church more or less fizzled out. I found myself looking for a new church. I found one that more or less worked, followed by another that I am convinced I belong in, but which doesn’t quite work as well on several levels.

Here’s my take.

I never experienced any of the excesses in leadership that have been reported here. I saw some lawlessness, but the participants were mostly transients who didn’t last. They weren’t brought back into line, but they weren’t encouraged either. Perhaps the one exception is the fact that the leader of our church traded in his long-time wife for his display-grade secretary about the same time JRS did. I never did get the revelation behind that one, but the new couple seems to have continued in a fruitful ministry for several decades. Maybe there was something to it after all.

Most of the people went their separate ways. I still occasionally pass by some of them like ships in the night. Some have continued loving the Lord. Some haven’t. As for me, I am profoundly grateful about what I learned. I learned to truly love the Lord. I learned to love his Word. I learned to recognise his voice. I learned to pray fervently. I learned to see God’s supernatural power. I’ve seen many miracles, both in big things and in everyday life. I learned the meaning of worship, something which my Calvinist background had never exposed me to. I have not wavered in about forty years, and still love Him very much.

A question I have often asked myself is: What part of what I learned should I un-learn? Clearly, I learned many godly things. I also learned a few perspectives that may well be spurious. The trick is to figure out which is which.

Many of the principles that JRS taught that are being dismissed as “undemocratic” or similar may not be as far off the mark as some might suggest. Democracy has never been a hallmark of church governance, neither in the Old nor in the New Testament. Likewise, not everything that’s biblical makes sense to everyone. If 1 Cor 3:19 doesn’t convince you, perhaps the last part of 1 Cor 1 will.

The way it was implemented perhaps didn’t work well. There is strong evidence, both in the forum and in my own experience, that impartation didn’t fully compensate for a lack of maturity. Things went awry in many ways, even though the thinking and intentions may have been sound.

Like Larry and others have suggested, a sensible approach is to look at the fruit. When I started trying to figure out my own roots, that’s the route I took. I’ve already mentioned some of the good fruit in my own life. There is enough of bad fruit too. Spending most of your formative years in fervent intercession does not necessarily lead to balanced perspectives. I later had to painfully learn a few basic lessons about life. I spent several years in rehab after a serious accident. I had way too much time to think, and had to do some serious growing up if I was going to survive that process. I’m not sure how I would have turned out without the accident, but in retrospect I did a lot of growing up, very quickly.

I’m afraid not all my fellow Walk members have learned those lessons. Among them, I see a harshness and lack of love that I find quite repulsive. In many cases, the years have done nothing to soften the edge. I have been quite disappointed, as someone recently said, that the “oneness” and all the special relationships did not stand the test of time, or even turn into some semblance of real friendship.

Again, I don’t claim any special glory in this department. I walked a road of correction and recovery that was very hard, and not of my own choosing. Without it, I’m not sure to what extent the fruit of the Spirit would have been evident in my life. I don’t think I would have been a very nice guy. And I’m probably not the right guy to ask how I turned out anyway.

So much for my own perspectives. Now let’s see what I learned on this forum.

I learned a lot about the history behind JRS and Living Word. I learned more about the factors that derailed Living Word in the late Seventies and early Eighties. I learned a lot of details, kind-of like revisiting your childhood farm for the first time. Thanks to everyone that contributed.

I also saw more of the same that I saw in my own church; people who were so busy with church things (or maybe even God’s things) that they never took the time to grow up. In some cases, the years have clearly brought some perspective, but in other cases the youthful harshness is still there.

Then I saw the bitterness. In some cases it was based on what had happened to Walk stalwarts who were apparently hard done by. In other cases, it was all about personal perspectives. Either way, there appears to be a lot of forgiving to do. Probably not a bad idea—bitterness never leaves the “victim” unscathed.

And wild accusations against JRS and the leadership. They were mostly without any basis in fact other than a feeling or a generally-held perception, or perhaps even excesses in their local church. I’ve had over half a century to observe and learn about the world. I’ve noticed that people who make wild accusations generally tend to project their own weaknesses onto others. Do you know a pastor who regularly preaches about adultery? Perhaps it’s time to lock up your daughters. Someone who keeps hammering on forgiveness? Probe a little, and you’ll soon find that he or she feels cheated by someone. So I’m not sure what to make of these accusations. Womanizer? Boozer? Thief? Et tu, Brute?

I took a long road trip a few months ago. For the first time, I visited Shiloh, where many of my friends had spent time and where even my dad had made a brief visit. It was July. The place was deserted. I had lots of time to walk around, read all the gravestones, and enjoy the rolling green hills. In case you’re wondering, there wasn’t a stone for JRS, and there wasn’t an unmarked stone either. It all seemed so innocuous. In fact, there’s even a plaque on which the county thanks the Church for its generous contributions to the public road running past the front gate. All very wholesome.

I also learned about JRS’s own origins. I had never heard of the Amana, not even on this forum, but if you want to understand JRS, you would do well to learn about their teachings. They settled about an hour from Washington, where JRS grew up. When JRS was born, they were in their heyday.

Now what?

JRS is dead. Marilyn is dead. Regardless of what direction Gary takes, the current Living Word is likely to be a very different animal to the one we all knew decades ago.

Quite frankly, it’s none of my business.

What is my business, is how I continue in my walk (sic) with God. I have learned to love Him, and to be obedient to Him, whatever it takes. I have paid a great price, but I have also lived a life that I could not have imagined. Spiritually, physically, emotionally and professionally, I have experienced things that would have been presumptuous to have aspired to.

I like to think that I’ve left a few footprints, but time will tell. Bearing fruit has been very important to me. I was given some talents, and I’d like to show some return on investment. One of the questions I’ve often asked myself is whether that emphasis of mine is misplaced. Is it really God’s intention, or are the fruits He’s looking for actually just the fruits of the Spirit? I don’t know. If Max Weber is right, maybe it’s just exaggerated work ethic, encouraged by vestiges of pietism in my origins.

We all struggle with a mixture of culture, traditional Christianity, maybe even some other religious influences and yes, even some Walk teachings and experiences that make up our idea of what it is to be God’s child. We need to embrace some of those; we need to get rid of some of those. Again, the trick is to know which is which.

I only met JRS a few times. He was an avuncular guy who clearly cared. He taught a richness of word that I’ve seldom seen equalled. Based on what he taught me, I still love God’s word—the Bible. He taught me a seriousness and an urgency about Christianity that has stood me in good stead. I’ve contributed to a local Christian church for decades, providing an input that doesn’t seem to come naturally to those who have walked a more traditional path. I never had any indication that JRS expected or encouraged hero worship. I think the Timothies and the Third Generation have to explain that one.

Marilyn? She’s just a name to me. Whether she is Jezebel incarnate as Frangipane suggests, or the Lamp of Israel as Gary claims, or even something else, I hope she found God’s love and forgiveness if she did not already have it.

And as for the Living Word: I’m glad I was there. I am also glad that I’m out of there. I have discovered that there are many “brothers from another mother” that are not in my immediate church circles. I’ve learned to try and minister God’s love where I live and where I work. I’ve learned to pray with others who don’t share my background. I’ve learned to worship God on an ongoing basis, in word and in deed. I have even occasionally found collective worship in which I could immerse myself for hours. Above all, I’ve learned that it’s mostly about simple obedience to God. Whether I get a warm feeling or not, is not the issue.

I thank God for all those who came out of the Walk who have managed to continue their relationships with Him, and borne fruit in the Body of Christ. I pray that He will keep his hands on those who have elected to go another way. Maybe one day, healing will come. Whether you’re serving God or not, I strongly urge you to find forgiveness in your heart and move on.

I have noticed that new arrivals on the forum are faced with a barrage of questions. If they succumb to the temptation, they become instant celebrities and enter into a months-long monologue. I will resist that temptation. I have thought and prayed long and hard about this contribution, and I’ll leave it at that.

AD:

Very succinct and well-stated.

Whatever symbiosis existed between G&M, and then played out for all the brethren, has now been changed forever. The ‘Big Three’ that formally represented the head of TLW has now been reduced to two, and their ‘relationship’ is in question, now that mom has been removed from the picture. One can only keep a charade going for so long, and since LOVE has been so absent in the leadership dynamic, putting on a perpetual ‘good face’ to the folks will eventually run out of steam.

The Great Hope in the days ahead is that the cracks in the wall will become so evident that enough LIGHT will come through lead the children out.

Southern-Boy :

You seem to be here essentially as an apologist and largely to cast doubt upon anyone posting critical comments here about The Walk and John Robert Stevens.

You say you "only met JRS a few times' so you have limited experience. And as you admit Marilyn is "only a name" to you.

You also seem to endorse dictatorial church government whey you say, "Many of the principles that JRS taught that are being dismissed as 'undemocratic' or similar may not be as far off the mark as some might suggest. Democracy has never been a hallmark of church governance, neither in the Old nor in the New Testament."

it's been 2,000 years since the ministry of Jesus and even longer since Old Testament times. Jesus said many would come in his name, but he would not know them. He warned about wolves in sheep's clothing. Galatians is instructional regarding the abuse of power by leaders.

Most churches today have become democratic in governance by an overwhelmingly majority recognizing the truth that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Typically a church has a democratically elected board, which is elected by secret ballot and serves fixed terms. Elected church boards can hire and fire pastors. Moreover churches are typically financially transparent, with independently audited financial statements and published budgets that disclose to all contributors how church funds are spent. This includes all salaries, compensation and expenses paid out from church funds.

Many churches belong to denominations that affords even more accountability. This may include educational requirement for pastors and teachers. Churches typically send delegates to denominational conventions or conferences and those delegates democratically elect denominational leaders and boards for fixed terms.

In my experience the more accountability and transparency that exists the less likely it is that there will be abuse. The most abusive churches seem to be the ones that have the least accountability for their leadership.

It is not "bitterness," but rather insight that causes people to post here as former members that were often hurt by JRS and The Walk. Attempting to somehow insinuate that they are to blame for their own victimization is wrong and in my opinion shameful. Your remark, "find forgiveness and move on" seems to say that people who post here are wrong, should be silent and stop.

I have no questions for you. Your statement is sufficient and I think people posting here can draw their own conclusions based upon what you have said.



Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 11/07/2015 01:31AM by rrmoderator.

I was hoping somebody from the South would post here. I am glad to hear that this brother is still serving the Lord and still believing. I am pretty sure I know what church this brother was in, and I might have met him at one of the regionals if he went to any. But that is beside the point, I won’t mention any more about where he might have lived. So I do want to apologize for one thing, to Southern boy, as I was one of the rogue drunk/stoner “shepherds” set in by shepherds far removed from the main churche authorities (sic!)These were guys that were mostly pretty good pastors, but still far removed from APCO and JRS geographically. JRS probably didn't know they existed, most were not ordained in other denominations, some were. So I was basically a tape player feeder, but still, I was one of them that should have been seriously walking with God and serving the Body. I thank God that He kept His hand on me even though I deserved judgment, I received Grace.

Southern boy confirms that the abuse just was not present here like I have read about In the Walk, but one thing to remember too is that most of us just scattered to the far winds when JRS died. From what I read the mega-abuse in the rest of the Walk started after JRS died.

I have heard JRS say in tapes that all movements of God change after the guy that starts it dies. Luther would not recognize that movement if he were to come back to life and walk in, etc.

I had mentioned before that some people dropped off when Marilyn entered the picture, and Southern boy confirms it. Not many, but some, and then when John died, Marilyn is the biggest explosion that ever happened to the Walk, she demolished it completely. I would say that along qualifies her as the Jezz of the whole Walk, the Yoko Ono, the one common denominator that was used by SOMEBODY as the tool to blow on the Walk, and she was good at it.

Southern Boy might not be interested in what happens to them in this third phase, but I am interested, but only passively. From my own perspective, I hope the Walk either changes for the better or just splits up, for the sake of the thousand or so that are still in it, that they might get a taste of what it is like to be in a Christ centered church. I know for certain, for the good, or for the bad, there is going to be a big change now.

Thank you, Moderator.

SOUTHERN-BOY:

Hopefully, no one here would question your experiences within TLW or your evaluations thereof, but it is important to point out that the years of your involvement and your proximity to the issues limits the scope of your perspective severely.

Many of those posting experiences have been witness to abuses that span decades, and cover a completely different regime that came into power after you left. The G&M days cover more than 30+ years, and the litany of abuse far exceeds anything that may have occurred during the JRS era, and continues to this day.

Most of our entire 35+ year involvement was spent at multiple ‘kingdom-facility’ locations, which put us right in the thick of things. The misdeeds you read about here are not only past, but continue. We have regular contact with ex-pats who still have family members or close friends involved with the fellowship, and the foundational culture remains.

Even though it may sound like some may be crying over milk spilled long ago, there is still quite a bit of cleanup to be done in the kitchen. Short of that happening, someone may just decide to lift up the radiator cap and drive under a brand new car. On this level, everything has a shelf-life.