Larry, you've given me a LOT of food for thought. It really helps to put some pieces of the puzzle together. One of my Dad's major frustrations towards the end of his life was why he and my Mom were having such a rough go in some areas of their lives, in spite of their "obedience and service". What you said makes sense as to part of the reason why they struggled so much. I remember one of the reasons my Mom left was because she was SO TIRED of the "warfare" and "battle" being waged spiritually. It just never seemed to end.

I know have a lot of conditioned ways of thinking about God and knee-jerk feelings on how things ought to be, because of my involvement for more than half my life and life-long exposure to my parent's belief system. I want to be free from them and know I will eventually.

It is amazing how much harm JRS himself did putting punk kids in places of authority simply on the condition that they qualify as yes men to him, knowing full well how much education he himself had. He must have believed his own hype, he must have really believed he would live forever, and never have to be held accountable. As I think back, I realize that I too stayed away from churches for a number of years, at least ten years, because I thought all of them to be a waste of time. After all, if Living Word turned out to be a dudd, how much more so would "Babylon's churches" turn out to be a dudd? The whole time, not realizing that I was right in the midst of Babylon in it's worst. The hypocracy of the WALK is unmatched by anything that I have encountered before or since. In essence John Stevens created a closed system. Where he taught that every "word" should be confirmed by two or three witnesses, he created a system of yes men that would agree to anything and everything he said, thereby, sowing it up for himself, nobody would buck the system. He taught against the denominations and created for himself a kingdom that was inherently without any form of checks and balances, there was absolutely no accountiblity. So then the hiarchy of the church was John Stevens along with a bunch of young yes men with no education whatsoever that would agree with whatever he said. That pretty much is a formua for trouble.

And it didn't stop with John Stevens. Gary and Marilyn Hargrave learned well from him and took over. In a lot of ways, it is worse now than it ever was under John. And the quest for the almight control and financial benefit to them, alone, is way more that what John ever achieved. We hear that G&M live a life of high means. And Rick Holbrook will be the receiver of this large estate when G&M pass away. Based on reports we hear, Rick Holbrook is the Walk's equivalent of Anthony Weiner. He learned from the best of them, I guess.

What I often wonder is this: how much of the LW teaching to you keep and what do you reject? Do any of you regard any of the teaching valid and worth hanging on to? I suspect everyone is in a different place with this so this question probably has many answers. For me, I walked away from it all. I consider it rat poison now.

The temptation is to view Jesus' words through the lens of men's teachings instead of the other way around. The trap is "You need me to explain what Jesus really meant - I'm the door opener." We don't need new revelation for Christianity to work - we just need to put into practice what Jesus has already taught. There is only one mediator between God and man - the man Christ Jesus. Man's teachings have no power in themselves except that they are based on God's words. It's way better to go to the Source and save yourself a lot of grief. He said to make disciples by teaching them to obey his commands, not come up with some new stuff. When we continue to ask, seek, and knock, His words begin to open up treasures we never imagined were there - often right in plain sight. His words have always worked when they are put into action and not just studied. For example, you will be forgiven the way you forgive others. It doesn't matter if you have a PhD in theology - you don't get out of forgiving others. For most, forgiveness is a good place to start if you find yourself bogged down with a wounded heart. No matter what we have been through, God has paid a much higher price to forgive us than we have paid to forgive others. When we read His words over and over and begin to put them into action, He will make clear what his Spirit is working on in our lives. Every person is unique and therein lies the danger of generic human input. It is God's Spirit at work in us performing a custom job - not our own efforts (or the efforts of others) to become righteous.

The Living Word claims it's purpose is to publish and preserve John's teachings. However, like a lot of organizations, if you look at their actions and where their money and labor is spent. it will reveal their true mission. In the case of the LW, it appears that acquiring real estate is on the hidden agenda of the leadership. In the Valley, houses in the neighborhood are being bought and converted into church-owned rental properties. And why not? People need to live somewhere. And there is an emphasis on living near the facility. If you dig deep, it would be interesting to see who is listed on the titles of these properties. And if it is a corporation, when that corporation dissolves (which will eventually happen), who do these assets end up going to? I suspect it will be 3 names on that short list.

In the case of the Church of His Kingdom, in San Diego, it's a bit more interesting. Let's see....how does it work? Oh, yes, you give words to people that they need to live close to the church to be near the "center of the camp". People who re-locate to San Diego are strongly encouraged to live in the immediate neighbourhood around the church. If you can't afford to buy, you rent a house. Guess who owns a large amount of the houses in that neighborhood? The pastor and his wife. They own over 20 houses in the area. Oh and if you want to buy a house, guess who is a real estate agent as well? It's smells like a conflict of interest to me, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. : )

Quote
paleface
The Living Word claims it's purpose is to publish and preserve John's teachings. However, like a lot of organizations, if you look at their actions and where their money and labor is spent. it will reveal their true mission. In the case of the LW, it appears that acquiring real estate is on the hidden agenda of the leadership. In the Valley, houses in the neighborhood are being bought and converted into church-owned rental properties. And why not? People need to live somewhere. And there is an emphasis on living near the facility. If you dig deep, it would be interesting to see who is listed on the titles of these properties. And if it is a corporation, when that corporation dissolves (which will eventually happen), who do these assets end up going to? I suspect it will be 3 names on that short list.

In the case of the Church of His Kingdom, in San Diego, it's a bit more interesting. Let's see....how does it work? Oh, yes, you give words to people that they need to live close to the church to be near the "center of the camp". People who re-locate to San Diego are strongly encouraged to live in the immediate neighbourhood around the church. If you can't afford to buy, you rent a house. Guess who owns a large amount of the houses in that neighborhood? The pastor and his wife. They own over 20 houses in the area. Oh and if you want to buy a house, guess who is a real estate agent as well? It's smells like a conflict of interest to me, but maybe I'm just being paranoid. : )

paleface:
I find this post very interesting. Could/would you elaborate concerning the owning and renting of properties? Do Bruce and Gilee Larson own the homes being rented or sold? You can pm me if you do not wish to post your answer openly. Thanks, john.

This is my first posting. I read most of the posts on Factnet several years ago and am glad to find a current active thread to read and try and connect with.

I first was exposed to the teachings of John Robert Steven in a Campus Crusade bible study in 1972 while using Steven's "First Principles" study guide. I last attended a TLWF church service in North Hills, CA in September 1997. I was told that I was no longer welcome in the fellowship.

Twenty-five years is a long time to be a part of a religous/social organization. So many things happened to change me as an individual human being and spiritual person. In September 1997 everything shut down and I never spoke about my life in TLWF, 25 years of my life, until now. I recently discovered this website and thread and began to read, and read some more. Something has come over me and is compelling me to share my experience.

As a high school graduate going off to university, I was looking for guidance and discovery in my life. I was raised Christian... went to Christian bible camps, experienced a salvation/born again experience young in life. Naturally I looked to God for answers. I found my God connection at a Campus Crusade bible study with some older students I knew from high school. The mystery of "the apostle Stevens" and the prophets intrigued me..... because I was looking for an answer about myself. I had the good fortune of meeting John Stevens in 1974 in CLW in Sepulveda..... funny how that area is now called North Hills. I felt I could tell him anything and never experience critisism or judgement from him.... never! This was a hook for me. When I felt that response from JRS, I wanted to believe everything he said..... from the pulpit... on the tapes....in the This week's... and everything he said to me personally. I got pulled into the "Follow the Apostle to where ever he goes" mind set. I didn't have a biblical justification for this... It was my personal connection to a man that had the ability to reach into my innermost self and assure me that I was ok.

More to follow soon..... opening myself like this is proving to be very painful.

jhorning - Yes that's the landlords.

One of the posts intrigues me, in it PALEFACE says he (or she, don’t know which) anyway, they wonder how much of the LIVING WORD should be accepted and how much should be rejected completely. Personally, I do believe in most of the LATTER RAIN theology, up to a point. JRS was more LATTER RAIN than any of the ones that God supposedly told him to avoid joining, however, I think if that happened, God was speaking more about the people themselves, not about the theology. At any rate, however that was, JRS did embrace Latter Rain to a degree greater than anyone that I have ever heard of to this day. THE WALK was LATTER RAIN on steroids, and still is.

I personally don’t believe Apostles and Prophets were ever removed from the Body of Christ, it is just that true Apostles and Prophets don’t go around bragging about it. They are humble people, it is not important to them to take such a high position for all the world to see. There is going to be a “Manifestation of the sons (and daughters) of God, as there is truly going to be a Church come to fruition one day, or there will be no return of the Bridegroom to marry that Bride. There must be a Church without spot or wrinkle. It is just not going to happen the way the WALK invisioned it with super apostles and prophets, ruling the world with a rod of iron without Christ manifesting literally, that is the biggest thing the WALK failed in, the realization that this will not happen without Christ Himself at the Head.

The Walk got into the same old “shepherding” thing that is among all the cults, they created for themselves a golden calf, they did not want to relate to this “invisible God,” they wanted for themselves a “shepherd” they could see and feel and touch. I believe there is a reason for that. I believe that any time someone creates and idol for themselves it is because they believe they can to a degree control that idol. They want someone on a pedestal because they know they can influence that idol and gain power for themselves by “being one with” them.

The WALK committed idolatry and that is why it has turned out to be a failure. If you listen to some of the tapes where JRS and Marilyn were talking together, you will notice that at first Stevens would correct her when she got too spacy, when her comments got too new age, but as he got sicker he decreased and she increased and I think he finally realized that he had made a huge mistake. JRS was like any other man, in my opinion, he did like thousands of ministers do, he got his head turned by the younger woman, JRS was no infallible super apostle that could not be wrong, and I think he found that out before he died.

Although John denied any involvement with the Latter Rain movement, I know from a family member that many reel to reel tapes were removed from the family home after Martha's death - the assumption by all was that they had once belonged to John. Some of the familiar doctrines belonging to the Latter Rain that later showed up in TLWF teaching are: an end time latter rain, the restoration of the church, restoration of the five fold ministries, pre-rapture spiritual second coming of Christ, new revelation and prophesy, manifestation of the sons of God, overcoming death before Christ's return, dominion now theology and spiritual warfare, mainstream Christianity referred to as old order or Babylon, personal ministry with personal words from God from the leadership, emphasis on the Feast of Tabernacles, the manchild doctrine, Joel's army and militancy, deeper levels of revelation, incarnation of Christ in a many-membered body, spiritual evolution to perfection, divine order, enforced unity, shepherding, and father /son mentoring. To assume all of this teaching came by revelation to John while waiting on the Lord in a chicken coup, instead of it coming from a bit of plagiarizing, is a bit of a stretch for me personally. I have mentioned these doctrines to some still within the fellowship and their response was that it is proof God is speaking the same word to different groups. I would tend to think it is proof some have chosen to stick their heads in the sand.

In talking with several leaders with national input, who have counseled many who have come out of similar groups, the common thread is that the Latter Rain movement seemed to start out fine but then later produced very destructive fruit - I would make the same observation about TLWF. A casual search on the Internet will confirm this - perhaps even on this web site. After a careful comparison to the techings of Jesus, it is easy to see many discrepancies. Human flesh always wants to build an order with itself at the top, rather than serving others. Jesus taught us to examine the fruit and see if it is good. That is something each individual will have to do for themselves. Are the "revelation" doctrines actually taking place or are they just a fantasy dreamworld that some are using to control others? Are some making promises of giving blessings to others in the future in exchange for obedience now - when they do not even possess the blessings themselves to give - e.g. resurrection life? "If you obey me now, when I win the Lotto I'll give you a million dollars." Oh, really? And as that famous prophet Dr. Phil would say, "And how is that working for you?".