And there is another thing. The very many children produced by polygamist families often lead to applications for welfare.

That means that tax paying US citizens who do not share this belief system are indirectly subsidizing this lifestyle.

To clarify, I don't beleive the leadership or the system in the fundamental Mormon community is biblically correct. I was not trying to point out the virtues of the system by saying it contained wonderful people. Instead, just the opposite is true. I said, "Whenever I see a leader taking the place of God and isolating their group to maintain control, it creeps me out. Even people in the world without much spiritual perception know something is not quite right. What is it that makes it so that those on the inside are so blinded? One group will look at another group and “know” that they alone have the hotline to heaven. Obviously, they are not all right. In some, the conviction runs so deep, they are willing to die for their beliefs."

Within many cults are wonderful people held in bondage. My point is that the problem is not the people. If you try to share scriptures that could bring them freedom, as you have done, it is considered a personal attack on the people - the system is always infallible and only Satan would consider lying about possible errors. I wonder how many people outside this group would think this "prophet" was going to live 350 years and father many children? They were shocked when he died. I don't know about you, but that hits awful close to home for me.

Most people would think it was pretty silly that people could be conned into believing such a thing. However, we hardly gave it a second thought that John, and then ourselves on his coat tails, would never die. If the rebellion of John's sons had not killed him, it would still be true. Oh really? I've often wondered how, and to whom, we were supposed to be more submissive. Talk about a guilt trip to maintain control! How do you think that would look to someone who chose not to check their brain and scriptures at the door?

I just heard Warren Jeffs was found guilty. Apparently his personal note from God declaring judgement on the court for messing with his prophet failed to gain sympathy from the jury. They were able to maintain a heart for the 12 and 14 year old girls. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was the same heart for the hundreds of lives devestated by TLWF in the name of God? How many refuse to have anything to do with Christianity again because of their exposure to "christ in the flesh"?

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larry bobo
However, we hardly gave it a second thought that John, and then ourselves on his coat tails, would never die.

Many people were sifted out of the fellowship following John's death because they did not believe they should continue to focus on him and join in the prayer for his return. I personally cut off relationships based on this directive--something I am obviously not proud of now.

Does anyone know if John Robert Stevens was an active member of the John Birch Society? Some of the Bircher ideas come up in some of his sermons and books.

Well I knew if I just googled Gary's name there was bound to be a thread or two about this subject. And obviously with how high it ranks in google when you do a search, he has also read this thread. Interesting!

In any case, if there is a more up to date thread going on, please direct me. SO here is the deal.

I was born into the Living Word Church, which was in the Valley. My Parents, well my Mom and Step-dad, were both members, as well as my grandparents who were there basically since the beginning. I went to Centers of Learning from the second year it opened I believe up until high school.

I guess I never really considered the church a cult in the same fashion of David Koresh, or Charles Mansen, but I did recognize early on the control factors that wouldn't be normal in a functioning society. But honestly, any of the free thinking children didn't really pay attention to those rules. In any case, I have lots of great stories and need to read through some of these threads before I share them with you.

I will however shock you with this one if you didn't know. JRS had a son with a woman outside his marriage to another member in the church, and that kid went to school with us all. Is this news or not really?

Strand, I've heard this as well, and from very reliable sources. As far as the LW being a cult, who knows? But a group that behaves like a cult, is probably a cult. The patterns of thought control are there, if you look objectively at it. Have you found the old posts on FactNet as well?

No I haven't found the ones on Factnet, because those links just point to the main page. If you have a better link that would be great. In any case it is true that Michael Buckingham is JRS's son. I won't tell you how I know, but lets just say Ive seen the legal documents to prove it. Just an interesting story in the entire scheme of things. One of these days I will write a book about it.

Strand, go to FactNet.org, go to the forums and then down into "Religions...". Then do a search on "Hargrave". All sorts of stuff comes up. You should be able to find all the old threads. Read it and learn. And take it all with a grain of salt. Peace !

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Strand
JRS had a son with a woman outside his marriage to another member in the church, and that kid went to school with us all. Is this news or not really?

I also had a very credible source confirm this to me. But he hastened to add: "it all happened while John was married to Martha, but was supposed to be faithful to Marilyn."
Keep that in mind.

Strand,
You mentioned considering writing a book in a recent post about JRS having a son out of wedlock, and seeing legal documents to prove it. I would hope your goal would be to bring freedom to those in TLWF. You might start with this web site to see if your information seems credible to those who would be helpful to you, prior to releasing it to those who would try to discredit you. I've heard the same rumors for many years, from many sources, and still am not convinced it is true. If it really is true, it may break some illusions. If it is not true, it will only further entrench the belief that anything spoken against TLWF must be from Satan.

From what I have read, after an individual has been involved in an isolated group for a few years, it is very difficult to get them to question anything. The reason the leaders of these groups try to separate their followers is to maintain control. It takes a serious crisis to break the spell. There is safety in conecting with the whole body of Christ. It's one thing to feign openess while secretly thinking you are the latest and greatest that all others will eventually bow to you, (and many groups do!) and quite another to be in a real relationship where the hand cannot say to the foot, "I have no need of you".