Hi, Hope:

This day really started "shitty." Literally, since the dog I'm sitting thinks it's just peachy to roll in excrement and then try to come into the house. YUCK! I also fell and injured my wrist so I don't recommend so and so botherring me today, 'cause I won't be so nice the next time. So I truly appreciate your support.

<<Karmal - YOU MADE MY DAY!!! I especially liked your Superman analogies because when I read the post that prompted your response, I pictured one of the villains like the Penguin with Batman tied up asking "So, I touched a nerve, did I?" in his smarmy voice. >>

LOL. Good one. That is a very funny mind movie, isn't it.

<<This is classic narcissistic behavior. Avoid the issue, turn it around on the person they are insulting or injuring or screwing in one form or another, and hope they appear like the one with brains. They need to have some kind of control because they are completely out of control themselves - they have no core. If they did, there would be compassion and not taunting.>>

Yes, it is sort of a sick cry for help when you really think about it. My only regret in all of this was that I carelessly used the word "snapped" when upon reflection what I meant was that I had a realization/break through after nearly a dozen previous phone conversations that she demanded unconditional acceptance of her view as well as my emulation of her forum experience. Whereas she had nothing but intolerance for my opinion of Landmark. Indeed she implied that I was worthy of "hate" for daring to have a heart, mind and soul of my own. I think any rational and reasonable person who has any self-respect and self esteem would tell such a person to take a hike. I've had three years to play it over and over and over again in my mind, and I still think and feel that I did the right thing. What anybody else thinks to the contrary be damned. They weren't there. They don't know what the hell they're talking about. If he wishes to post his poisonous nonsense then that's his right, but no rational and reasonable person with at least half a brain and an 8th grade reading level would ever read so much into so little--unless of course they're a spineless pc advocate or a covert forum junkie.

<<When my therapist (a LE junkie) offered me Ecstasy to get rid of PMS and I refused, he turned it into me having a control problem, not being able to let go. Interesting how he left the country soon thereafter. He faked his empathy, claiming to know what it's like to be this way, and I'm sure that is true. But, people like him do not see that all the LE courses in the world, all the drugs, all the other disciplines that so many participants try, are just another fix. They feel like they have the answer and want to evangelize (because it's not that they want to help, they just want credit for fixing you). >>

Thanks for sharing that.

<<Anyway - thanks for that post.>>

You're welcome. You may get more to amuse you depending on how much abuse this guy likes.

Northern Lady:

<<It's a lot of anger and self pity in this thread.
Someone lost a best friend and are angry and upset about that. The enire blame is put on someone outside that friendship.>>

There's as time to be diplomatic and there's time to kick ass. You don't know the circumstances for I won't share them all here ever so it's not appropriate of you to make such sweeping generalizations. It's one's perfect right to feel their emotions. There are no such things as bad emotions--unless of course you're Catholic or Protestant, of course. It's what we do about them that counts. Anger can inspire us to correct the wrongs we see in the world. Case in point: I provide germane information for those who wish to see what science has to say about Landmark. And I'll defend myself when someone is making unfair insinuations about me, cheap shots or blind siding. It's called standing up for one's self, being assertive and not being a woos or a doormat.

<<From my own perspective I spend way too much time being bothered about something that yet hasn't happened - that my Landmarkian friends would start pushing me down their road. I have already declared that I will not do that and no one has tried to do so since then. For me it is time to be strong in my own beliefs of what is right and wrong. To stand up and be who I am and have a clear and calm opinon based on facts that I don't need Landmark to live my life. Fear of Landmark won't take me anywhere. >>

You're assuming that my feelings are analogous to yours. You assumptions are incorrect. I actually am quite at peace with the situation; but I will not tolerate people unfairly judging me and/or offering opinions that are based on nothing but an incorrect interpretation.

Your desire to just get along is OK to a point, but some people only understand diplomacy with some balls behind it. Maybe you've led a relatively sheltered life and have a different view of life. In my experience many will interpret your reticence and desire to just get along as being weak and they'll harass you continually.

<<I doubt that anger will get you the friend/s back There is always two parts in a relationship and one part might move on. It is painful but what can you do? Force that person back, telling him/her that they're inauthentic (to speak a language they understand)? It is time to let go. You're friend might wake up one day and come back. >>

Again you assume that I actually want this friend (just one) back. I don't. I will never wish to be with someone who implies that I'm worthy of hate for not unconditionally accepting Landmark while simultaneosly she is TOTALLy intolerant of my views and feelings at variance with Landmark. Quite frankly I've moved on and am quite happy and at peace well over 2 years ago. You really should read my posts more carefully, for again you're seeing me through your own version of this phenomena and making glaring assumptions therefrom.

<<I think that if my friends do more courses (which they've said they haven't planned to do) there will be problems. If they would volunteer I would be out of here as soon as possible. I hope that I - if that day will come - will be strong enough to take the step away from them before I blame Landmark for stealing my friends.

Landmarkians learn to be in charge of their life so I just have to prove that that is possible without Landmark. >>

Do whatever you think is right for your life. It's none of my business as mine is none of yours. Kindly refrain from characterizing me as some chronically madman out on a vendetta against Landmark. It's not accurate, and it makes me feel quite disappointed in you. I get the impression that you're a good person, so I do not take offense or get "mad" at you. But it's my perfect right to assertively defend myself. If some interpret this as anger, then they are mistaken. It's passionately asserting my rights to be no mischaracterized.

K64

Karmal

WOW! No you're not angry. Totally in control ........ but why are you here? Right, this is a board where we share experiences?


<<Do whatever you think is right for your life. It's none of my business as mine is none of yours. >>

Smooth Karmal, very smooth. I havn't said anything about you. I just stated a general opinion (which I assume you don't like - ops sorry you don't like that either) and added some of my own thoughts about having Landmarkian friends.

I'm sorry if you feel as I judged you.

Easy there Karmal. Wouldn't want to meet you in a dark alley at night.

"Passionate assertiveness is to landmark junkies like yourself, like kryponite is to Superman, like silver to a werewolf,...

[133 previous analogies formerly here were deleted for space purposes only]

..., and sunlight to a vampire. Did I make myself clear? If not I'll include the 133 analogies in an adendum.

But if helps your attempt at self aggrandizement to denigrate others then I bless you and forgive you, and I give you my permission to do so.

I know what I am, and I don't need a forum junkie to tell me."

You accuse me of thinking I'm a mind reader? Look you arrogant piss ant, I came to this board to learn about the forum and to see what people are saying about it because I know some people who have done it. The zealousness I experience on this board is twice as intense as any of "recruitment' experiences I've had with Forum people. (No, this is not some sort of twisted psychological manipulation. It's the way I see it). I suppose you are going to tell me what I 'really' mean now are that I'm being sucked in.



"Thus to save face in front of your fellow forum junkies, you now pretend like what you originally and "actually"[yeah right] meant all along was that you and your ilk are "more tolerant/politically correct" than thou...or me in this particular case. And you imply that I'm a bad bad bad boy for daring to ever voice an opinion that was contrary to my friend's. "

But now I'm a bad bad bad bad boy for daring to question you? You hypocrate. The only self aggrandizement going on here is with you and your vehement responses. I didn't try to denigrate you. I read your post and called it like I saw it. Pure and simple. You are the one that can't take the criticism. Perhaps you should see a psychologist.

"Nah, nah, nah nah, nah!"

How old are you?

Karmal - Your entire diatribe was a waste of time. You think you exposed me? You are such a fool.

When I was little, one of the biggest lessons I learned from my Dad was to imagine myself in someone elses shoes. And I haven't forgotten it. Simply put, i asked you to imagine yourself in your friend's shoes and you wigged out. If this is a Landmark lesson, then consider me guilty.

Northern...um...lady(?):

Happy new Spring time:

<<WOW! No you're not angry. Totally in control ........ but why are you here? Right, this is a board where we share experiences?>>

Well, it's a happy Spring for some anyway...

So your reasoning goes as follows:

1) By virtue of being here in this thread anyone is automatically an angry person.
2) Karmal64 is here.
3) Therefore he is an angry person.

No offense, but that's not even remotely logical.
And claiming to know divine my moods isn't humanly possible. Yet you label me as a chronically "mad" forum maniac based solely on your opinion. And then you behave as if it's an established "fact" and post what to me is perceived as an implied attack on my character.

Please calm down. You've worked yourself into a rant all for nothing, truly. Let me try to explain this.

If you weren't referring specifically to me that at least in that regard then I apologize.

At least I am willing to admit the possibility that I may have been not totally correct in this particular regard and say so publicly.

I'm asking you honestly (not implying anything about you): Would you do the same for me?

<<WOW! No you're not angry. Totally in control ........ but why are you here? Right, this is a board where we share experiences?>>

You're making mind reading claims again, and then again you're labeling me as chronically angry 24/7/365, and then writing as if it's an established fact rather than just your impression of me filtered through the sunglasses' hue of your own offended subjective sensibilities.

I am highly astonished that you would read into my reply that somehow I supposedly said you couldn't share ANY of your "experiences" ever. That's entirely untrue. Share all your anecdotes or whatever all you like. Nobody said you didn't have to except you.

To clarify I only requested you not to PLEASE make sweeping assumptions about how someone is all the time based on how they may have behaved on a few (or several) occasions...

...sort of like I get the impression that you you're doing right now with me. And now as far as you're concerned all I am and all I ever will be is an "angry" person with no other redeeming qualities in the past, now or ever.

Lucky for you I don't judge people as harshly as you based on practically nothing.

<<"Do whatever you think is right for your life. It's none of my business as mine is none of yours."
Smooth Karmal, very smooth. I havn't said anything about you. I just stated a general opinion (which I assume you don't like - ops sorry you don't like that either) and added some of my own thoughts about having Landmarkian friends.

I'm sorry if you feel as I judged you.>>

To be quite honest I don't think you're sorry at all. You're just giving me a phoney "Enron"/politican "apology."

Oh boy, but YOU sure have judged, condemned and sentenced me to hell fire for all eternity in your own (never once angry/mad or any dark emotion in its entire life) heart now, haven't you.

You reminded me of something that more Americans should really be aware of. You too.

We learned in social psychology when I was an undergraduate that people from Asian countries, when they see somebody in a bad mood/angry mood, don't automatically label the mad-behaving person as therefore always being a mad/angry/hostile person by their very nature.

Instead according to social psych., Asians typically say that the person who is behaving emotionally (i.e., the one behaving angrily) is simply having a bad day, that something must have happened to them to make them feel angry, sad or whatever. They don't automatically brand the person forever and all times as a mad mad mad person and shun, comdemn and vilify them.
Asians realize more than Americans so this study would seem to suggest, that they realize that we are all humans beings, and they allow everyone the luxury of being "human" now and then, and that includes being angry sometimes.

Would that more Americans, like you seemingly, would do likewise. Although I imagine you'll blame plenty of externals whenever YOU are mad. I.E., "me" in this example.



Whereas in America, Americans do just the opposite. An American when they see someone else behaving angrily will automatically assume that the individual has a permanent character flaw which predisposes them towards anger and merits harsh judgement.

Paradoxically however when that same quick-to-judge American is mad/angry him/herself, s/he automatically blames literally anything or anyone for his/her feelings---rather than apply the same harsh judgement that they dispense so easily and automatically unto others.

And that's clearly what you've done with me here now.

Think/Be/Feel whatever you damned well please. I'm not going to try to blow smoke up your a-- by trying to tell you that I care about you or your problems. I don't.

If you want to feel mad at something go ahead. Kindly allow me the same privileges of being a mere human with human emotions (including anger) like you clearly do.


But know this: If something offends my sense of justice, spirituality, politics or those things and people who I love... I'll display whatever emotions I--and ONLY I--think are appropriate and do WHATEVER I think is appropriate. If I think it's appropriate and rational to feel anger I'll do so, and if you or anybody else disapproves then that's just too damned bad.


<<Smooth Karmal, very smooth. I havn't said anything about you. I just stated a general opinion (which I assume you don't like - ops sorry you don't like that either) and added some of my own thoughts about having Landmarkian friends.>>

You're claiming to "mind read" again. Science still hasn't proven it exists, so KNOCK it off.

Ok, if you didn't about me specifically then I apologize for that particular interpretation. Eric just lost his girlfriend though, and if you were criticizing him I still think you really need to give the guy a break for Chrisakes. He just lost her recently, and he's a human being too, just like you. Not all of us so emotionally bullet proof not feel anything after getting dumped. It's just being a human being with all their--and our--faults and confusion, you know like you have and I have too.

Nevertheless you clearly expressed your opinions about the "anger" and "self pity" in this thread. I admist the possibility that I misread you but you may have been guilty of not expressing your point as clearly as you could have. Regardless, when someone makes a similar observation about yours, I fail to understand why you react so harshly and with such vitriol... or so it seems from the tone of your writing.

So, I won't simply say that I'm sorry "if you feel if I judged you."

That doesn't feel like a genuine apology to me. That's what Enron types and politicians say.

I'll say I'm sorry for judging you if what I got from your message wasn't your intent and it was simply due to imprecise writing. It happens every day, and it doesn't mean you or I are bad readers or writers. It's just being human.
I'm willing to let you be human. How about you

<<I'm sorry if you feel as I judged you.>>

In other words you're not really sorry at all.

Ok, that's fine. It truly doesn't really matter. I know what I am, an I don't need you or anyone else to tell me based on a fraction of time in the universe.

Thank whatever God you pray to that your harsh judgements of me will never be as equally and liberally applied to you as well.

I don't communicate in the real world with people who don't like me or vice a versa. I'd prefer the same in this virtual world as far as you and I are concerned. Whatever else you do here is inconsequential to me. I couldn't care less.

I'm sorry that you cannot apparently tell the difference between being assertive and a passionately defending a point of view or individual. Thus I know you won't believe me when I write this, but I truly didn't and still don't feel any anger in the writing this post to you. I am what I am, and it's matters not what you think of me now or ever:)

999orb:

<<If this is a Landmark lesson, then consider me guilty.>>

Obviously there's at least two of us who think you are Landmark.
Whatever.
Great! And thanks.
Good bye.
And good riddance.

And in conclusion, it just so happens I have loved ones who have been required to fight in Iraq.

This puts you two, 999orb and Northern...something into proper perspective.

I've disabled the e mail contact for this forum, and I'm gone for good. I've got better things to do than have to tolerate your irrationalities, intolerances and emotional judgement.

Now: To all the kind or at least rational people on this board, I say thanks, and to anyone else I urge you : don't judge the information I that I shared unfairly just because I was the one to share it. Judge it by its own merits. I had nothing to do with it.

Good bye Eric, Hope, right2fight...for what it was worth I enjoyed your rapport and input. As for everyone else good riddance. Show a little class and know when enough is enough.

OK, now take your cheap shot and prove me right as to how you are addicted to your petty bickering.

Free at last, free at last. Thank God almighty, I'm free of these two at last!

Here's another prime example of a troll.
If you read their posts together, you'll see the pattern.

Quote
999zorb
My my Karmal. Did I touch a nerve? You sound paranoid. I'm not performing cultish, cognitive acrobatics.

I simply stated how I interpreted your description of the situation with your friend. In your post, you state, "She was really talking in the forum jargon big time, and I don't know but something in me sort of snapped and I told her to stop talking like that, that it's annoying and impolite to talk in a language that another doesn't understand. "

What I read was that you told your friend how she should act and that her talking was annoying. You told her to stop talking that way, that it was rude. Isn't that what you wrote? Or did I interpret that wrong?

I'd expect any of my friends or even my wife to get indignant too if I told them what they could say to me and how to say it.

My only point is that you have some responsibility for what happened. You were half of the conversation.

I stated how I interpreted your description of the situation with your friend. If you don't like it, that 's your perogative. I did not intend to insult you. You are posting critical messages on a public message board (which is admirable). If you can't take someone else being critical with you, perhaps you shouldn't post such personal stories.

Quote
northernlady
Karmal



Smooth Karmal, very smooth. I havn't said anything about you. I just stated a general opinion (which I assume you don't like - ops sorry you don't like that either) and added some of my own thoughts about having Landmarkian friends.

I'm sorry if you feel as I judged you.

the above is a typical "lekkie" put-down

'shad'

too right Guy,

it seems a lot of Landmark "graduates" like to come trolling over here to put people down. I wonder why that is?

regards,
'shad'