Hope...I don't think it's it's just Landmark anymore that is doing this dating service. My friend is involved in a Lifespring offshoot called ChoiceCenter, in Las Vegas, Nevada. So far, other than the 1st through 3rd Tier of training offered by this group, he has signed up for a gym (owned by one of the franchise owners of ChoiceCenter), and also a Three Minute Dating Service ( you meet with 20-odd people for 3 minutes each, to determine who you "connect" with). This is so bothersome. I see these groups branching off into private enterprise, and promoting their other businesses to the people that attend the workshops. I honestly do not understand why some kind of regulations are not imposed about this kind of operation. I am just speechless.

You don't know what you're talking about.

You weren't there. You don't know either of us nor understand the exact circumtances that engenered it.

The "snapped" reference was a figurative description of a silent feeling that I had on the inside during a phone conversation. But I never once said that I literally snapped at her nor did I. I was polite but assertive with her.

She was cold and distant with me for being thus. I have too much self respect to pretend that I agree with someone simply because I know they'll be offended if I don't or that they won't like me if I don't. I won't be manipulated into agreeing with someone if they decide to use the friendship as ransom for it. I've only known two types of people who do something like that: Landmark types and Church of Scientology types. I suspect you of being similar due to your peculiar cognitive re-interpretation of my original post--just like a landmark person would do by reframing it into an entirely different cognitive context. It won't work with me.


I cannot speak for everyone here. If others wish to tolerate your inappropriately presumptuous postings then that is their concern. I will have none of it. I ignore and delete from now on.

'I won't be manipulated into agreeing with someone if they decide to use the friendship as ransom for it.'

'If they decide to use the friendship as ransom for it'. That hits the nail on the head. In true friendship, you are not treated as an object. Intimacy is not meant to be a game of chess. And friendship/love is not supposed to serve a hidden agenda.

I may be mistaken but did get the sense that this person was, quite deliberately using the relationship as a means to recruit you into her LGAT. You were 100% right to call her on it.

Other cults have been known to offer what seems to be friendship, only to use it coldbloodedly to recruit 'fresh meat' into the web.

Now, some might object and say, 'But friends give word of mouth referrals to churches, spiritual groups and therapists all the time? Why are you so offended?'

Answer: The deceit factor combined with emotional coercion is what makes the difference between a friendly referral vs covert recruitment. When friendship is genuine, you can remain friends even if one of you refuses to get involved with the other person's spiritual group. You are not made to choose between the relationship and converting to the other person's belief system.

Kamal objected to manipulative bait-and-switch mindfuck that operated under the guise of friendship. And he was right to object. And remember, these LGATS are not amateur operations. They are teaching highly powerful, carefully tested methods of mental manipulation (military intelligence folk call this 'Psy Ops--Psychological Operations) that go far beyond what the average asshole is capable of. Because the average asshole doesnt get the expert tutoring and structured social support for creating misery.

It is getting to the point where if I start getting seriously involved with someone, I will say, at the start, 'I need you to assure me that you will be 100% up front about your spiritual practice. And that you will not allow any spiritual teacher or training group to drive a wedge between us. No decent person or group would ever do such a thing, anyway.'

Hi, Corboy:

Heh, thanks for the support, Corboy. I felt very blind-sided by that last poster who seems clearly to be a covert forum junkie. These forum types clearly don't learn anything about tact, empathy or at the very least asking a few clarifying questions b4 opening their very-large mouths, or closing them if they have nothing good to say.

<<'If they decide to use the friendship as ransom for it'. That hits the nail on the head. In true friendship, you are not treated as an object. Intimacy is not meant to be a game of chess. And friendship/love is not supposed to serve a hidden agenda.>>

Yes, that's exactly what it felt like. Like I had to behave in a predetermined manner otherwise I wasn't friendship worthy. It felt almost liked she was coached to respond to certain objections in an almost verbatim fashion. It felt very phoney and contrived. I suspect that they train the forum graduate to equate criticizing a Landmark idea with getting inappropriately personally critical. They don't apparently want the forum graduate to understand that one can disagree without being disagreeable. It can be done, but I guess these groups thrive on polarizing individuals to extremes. You get much more gung-ho zealots that way I guess.

<<I may be mistaken but did get the sense that this person was, quite deliberately using the relationship as a means to recruit you into her LGAT. You were 100% right to call her on it. >>

Yes, otherwise at the very least the friendship would have at the very least ended up with us being more like acquaintances... if that even. She had already acquired a cadre of new forum graduates who she defended quite vehemently when I cited all the germane material at culteducation.com. I have little doubt that she has since become a volunteer with the goal of doing every single offering and eventually becoming an employee and/or forum leader herself. I'd lost both my parents relatively recently before her departure, yet her departure felt just as sudden and just as permanent. It felt like a lighnting bolt in the middle of the night, and I was stunned and so very sad and confused wondering what it all meant.

<<Other cults have been known to offer what seems to be friendship, only to use it coldbloodedly to recruit 'fresh meat' into the web. According to material on Rick's site, members of the Sharon Gans group are taught to befriend candidates for recruitment--and to conceal the actual agenda being served.

A former member of SYDA yoga reported that members who were mental health professionals were actually coached on ways to con thier clients to join SYDA--an egregious, outrageous violation of the boundary ethics all psychoptherapists must answer to.

Now, some might object and say, 'But friends give word of mouth referrals to churches, spiritual groups and therapists all the time? Why are you so offended?'

Answer: The deceit factor combined with emotional coercion is what makes the difference between a friendly referral vs cult/LGAT recruitment. When friendship is genuine, you can remain friends even if one of you refuses to get involved with the other person's spiritual group. You are not made to choose between the relationship and converting to the other person's belief system.

Kamal objected to manipulative bait-and-switch mindfuck that operated under the guise of friendship. And he was right to object. And remember, these LGATS are not amateur operations. They are teaching highly powerful, carefully tested methods of mental manipulation (military intelligence folk call this 'Psy Ops--Psychological Operations) that go far beyond what the average asshole is capable of. Because the average asshole doesnt get the expert tutoring and structured social support for creating misery.>>

Yes: "Mind fuck." Very apt that. Sometimes these forum freaks get the impression that just because someone is polite and soft spoken that they are "easy meat," as you said. Although I reallly did appreciate the fact that landmark calls appear clearly as such on caller ID so they're easy to ignore. After too many I'd shut off the ringer and the voice mail too. I won't answer any call if it's unavailable, and I'm surprised that they haven't caught on to that annoying trick that so many lesser telephone life forms resort to.

I cannot articulate well enough to make the uninitiated appreciate just how weird, manipulative and irrational my former friend sounded. And I won't even bother trying to convince somebody that has bought it all hook, line and sinker. Yet she thought she was being so reasonable and thoughtful for sharing what she termed a transformational experience. She was so very adamant that for weeks, maybe even months after we stopped talking, I seriously was starting to wonder if I indeed was the crazy one. Just think about it: I didn't even attend a forum and I was so strongly affected thus. I shudder to think what it's like to get it full force 14 hours a day for three days straight. I truly chills me to think that people are tricked into going to these things thinking that they're just another business seminar or new age seminar. Truly criminal. I think the term I coined inf-EST-ation is an apt description. The covert forum booster accused me of being "intolerant." Yet clearly landmark types are the intolerant ones, for as soon as you don't agree with them/do the forum, then they brand you as unable to "get it," and forever thereafter you are "too negative" and are shunned for life. Now isn't THAT a wonderful philosopy! Intolerant: Talk about the frying pan calling the kettle black.

<<It is getting to the point where if I start getting seriously involved with someone, I will say, at the start, 'I need you to assure me that you will be 100% up front about your spiritual practice. And that you will not allow any spiritual teacher or training group to drive a wedge between us. No decent person or group would ever do such a thing, anyway.'>>

If I was into personals ads, I'd insert something like the following in to my copy:

"If words and concepts like 'transformations,' 'rackets,' 'forum' have become a major part of your present life, philosophy and daily home/work vocabulary then "embrace the possibility" that you don't have a chance with me. You give "new age" a very bad reputation. Move along."

Thanks for your support and cameraderie. It helps very much indeed. Thanks to all similar minded posters here.

Karl/karmal64

Hi, Hope:

You said: "Doesn't sound like Karmal "snapped" and went nuts. It's clearly stated something inside snapped - Karmal got sick of hearing the tape recorded jargon and was being "authentic" in asking her to stop. If anythng, he was a little too patient. Her response to being asked to stop evangelizing was that "we all hated them and the coach yelled at them", them being the people who simply wanted them to lose the jargon. Yeah - hatred is a good tool to have in your self-improvement belt."

Seemed pretty obvious to me too. Either s/he is a covert forum booster or has to have everything dumbed down to an 8th grade reading level. Thank God there are far more smart people like you and corboy here, for I tire of explaining the obvious to dumb people. And yes, I never heard her once use the word "hate" b4 her forum mind bending. What gall to declare how "intolerant" their detractors are when they seem to "hate" anyone who disagrees with even a seemingly inconsequential thing about them. I think what they even hate more is that they cannot berate, belittle and shout us down with group psych. tactics like they do in the forum with a post-grad forum claque to clap like seals for them. Free speech really sucks to some people.

<<Landmark sent me an email advertising their new dating, roommate and job service. I think it's a great idea. They can all preach to the converted and have a great time.>>

How scarey! They'll also have a room mate directory and even a job service to work with "like-minded" individuals too?! SHUDDER!!! I thank God I work with normal people with all their normal good points and faults and that they appreciate/ tolerate mine accordingly. If I ever found myself working in such a "Stepford Wife/Husband-esque" purgetory I'd bail asap and damn the consequences! Come to think of it I did once when the higher ups wanted every employee to essentially spy on all of their fellow employees and write assessments that would determine everyone's raises or lack there of--naturally all on our own time without any financial incentives. At least I practice what I preach.:D

Hey Corboy,

Thanks again for your contribution to these posts.

You are helping me understand what I went through.

I can only see failure on an organizational level from these LGAT zombies running their own businesses.

Cracks develop.

It did in my personal relationship, so why would that not be true on a larger scale.

Glad I never did the AIDS ride thing.

It was big in CA.

My my Karmal. Did I touch a nerve? You sound paranoid. I'm not performing cultish, cognitive acrobatics.

I simply stated how I interpreted your description of the situation with your friend. In your post, you state, "She was really talking in the forum jargon big time, and I don't know but something in me sort of snapped and I told her to stop talking like that, that it's annoying and impolite to talk in a language that another doesn't understand. "

What I read was that you told your friend how she should act and that her talking was annoying. You told her to stop talking that way, that it was rude. Isn't that what you wrote? Or did I interpret that wrong?

I'd expect any of my friends or even my wife to get indignant too if I told them what they could say to me and how to say it.

My only point is that you have some responsibility for what happened. You were half of the conversation.

I stated how I interpreted your description of the situation with your friend. If you don't like it, that 's your perogative. I did not intend to insult you. You are posting critical messages on a public message board (which is admirable). If you can't take someone else being critical with you, perhaps you shouldn't post such personal stories.

It's a lot of anger and self pity in this thread.
Someone lost a best friend and are angry and upset about that. The enire blame is put on someone outside that friendship.

From my own perspective I spend way too much time being bothered about something that yet hasn't happened - that my Landmarkian friends would start pushing me down their road. I have already declared that I will not do that and no one has tried to do so since then. For me it is time to be strong in my own beliefs of what is right and wrong. To stand up and be who I am and have a clear and calm opinon based on facts that I don't need Landmark to live my life. Fear of Landmark won't take me anywhere.

I doubt that anger will get you the friend/s back There is always two parts in a relationship and one part might move on. It is painful but what can you do? Force that person back, telling him/her that they're inauthentic (to speak a language they understand)? It is time to let go. You're friend might wake up one day and come back.

I think that if my friends do more courses (which they've said they haven't planned to do) there will be problems. If they would volunteer I would be out of here as soon as possible. I hope that I - if that day will come - will be strong enough to take the step away from them before I blame Landmark for stealing my friends.

Landmarkians learn to be in charge of their life so I just have to prove that that is possible without Landmark.

Northernlady

<<My my Karmal. Did I touch a nerve? You sound paranoid. I'm not performing cultish, cognitive acrobatics. >>

We studied your kind of thing in university, but I never had any idea...
So now you think that you're a mind reader.
Have you spoken to a psychologist about this? Ooops, sorry a landmark coach, I mean?

Nerve? Touched? It's called being assertive and passionate. It's quite appropriate to be passionate about causes that anger us. Live with it.

Passionate assertiveness is to landmark junkies like yourself, like kryponite is to Superman, like silver to a werewolf,...

[133 previous analogies formerly here were deleted for space purposes only]

..., and sunlight to a vampire. Did I make myself clear? If not I'll include the 133 analogies in an adendum.

But if helps your attempt at self aggrandizement to denigrate others then I bless you and forgive you, and I give you my permission to do so.

I know what I am, and I don't need a forum junkie to tell me.

<<I simply stated how I interpreted your description of the situation with your friend. In your post, you state, "She was really talking in the forum jargon big time, and I don't know but something in me sort of snapped and I told her to stop talking like that, that it's annoying and impolite to talk in a language that another doesn't understand. ">>


Cause: No you didn't. You inappropriately attempted to characterize me as someone who "snapped" and then as someone who went off on a diatribe against a much loved friend. You failed. You were wrong. Nah, nah, nah nah, nah!

For what it's worth you DID prove that it's humanly possible to exceed the universal "crass" level. Also the univeral "cheap shot" level. You're a VERY classy, dude. Dude.

Result: We all here called you on it. Now you're eating crow and looking stupid, and you're trying to back peddle by latching onto any little crumb that's left. It's called karma, dude; and you got the bad kind.

Thus to save face in front of your fellow forum junkies, you now pretend like what you originally and "actually"[yeah right] meant all along was that you and your ilk are "more tolerant/politically correct" than thou...or me in this particular case. And you imply that I'm a bad bad bad boy for daring to ever voice an opinion that was contrary to my friend's.

If you're the kind of "friend" who cannnot tolerate disagreement and automatically labels people then frankly you're not much of a friend or a human being for that matter.

As Mr. Rogers would say, "Nice try, neighbor." If such "magical" stories help you go right ahead. Whatever helps you get through the night, dude.

<<What I read was that you told your friend how she should act and that her talking was annoying. You told her to stop talking that way, that it was rude. Isn't that what you wrote? Or did I interpret that wrong?>>

True: It's what I wrote, dude; but you got it totally wrong. Try reading some of the other posts re. to get the correct interpretation. Maybe they can dumb it down enough for you.

So in other words you're basically saying: "Heh,Heh, all "transformation" is basically the sole monopoly of Landmark, and anyone who disagrees is evil. So when Werner tells you to bend over and act like you love it, well, hell; that's the price for nirvana.

Werner, "Quit your whining! Love hurts."

<<I'd expect any of my friends or even my wife to get indignant too if I told them what they could say to me and how to say it. >>

Not so fast, dude! You're equivocating; trying to substitute the meaning of my definition with a parallel one of your own. That's also included at Mr. Ross's site as a form of covert manipulation quite common by COS and LEC types. Shame on you. You're not very subtle or very smart, are you.

Therefore to use your logic from just above, anyone can speak any way they please at any time and everyone else just has to live with it no matter what it is, no matter how incomprehensible it is to the uninitiated, no matter how outsiders feel about it or no matter what the respected scientific experts caution about the organization that such kooky neologisms are endorsing. Why? Because landmark says so! Landmark zombies: "Clap, clap, clap." OH! Well, then: That makes it automatically OK, doesn't it.

Don't try to weasle out of it, dude. That's EXACTLY what you DID say.

[weasle...weasle...weasle...]

Dude! I said NOT to weasle! STOP IT!!!

How would you like it if I wrote to you in profanity?
How about mindlessly chattering away in French or Spanish?
L'aimerait-tu bien si je te parle comme ca?
Te preferies mas si te hablo en Espanol del tiempo.?

Annoyed? Feel like I'm talking down to you or trying to make you feel ingnorant, small or feel... something. SURPRISE! I just did, and you fell for it. It IS annoying isn't it. And I bet you'd figurativel "snap" too if I talked down to you like you were too stupid to live, insulting and intolerant for daring to have a Landmark opinion at variance with mine, right? Don't lie, dude. You KNOW you would.

That's all hypothetical, but well, to tell the truth: I do think you are one fry short of a happy meal, at least when it comes to reading comprehension and Landmark in general.

Your anticipated response: [whiney voice]: "But WHYYYYYYYYYYYYY? I'm being true to myself via unfettered spontaneous creative self-expression. How dare you "judge," "condemn." "criticize," or "limit" me in anyway. You're just "negative," "bad," and "intolerant;' therefore I'm right and you're wrong. The fact that you cannot understand me has nothing to do with it. If you LOVED me you'd just assume it's all good and DO THE FORUM so that you can sound incoherent like I do! Wah WAh WAH! I'm better than you, for I'm more 'tolerant!'"

Rah rah yeah team! Landmark zombies: "clap clap clap."

You're argument makes as little sense, but it makes for a good laugh. I wish you forum types would come and speak at our university critical thinking forum so that we could practice our derision skills. God bless America: Where you have the right to express your nutty opinions, and we have the right to ridicule them.

Thanks for the good laugh. Feel free anytime.

And if you're looking to characterize this entry properly it's called sarcastic, and you had it coming BIG TIME.

So no whining!

Karmal - YOU MADE MY DAY!!! I especially liked your Superman analogies because when I read the post that prompted your response, I pictured one of the villains like the Penguin with Batman tied up asking "So, I touched a nerve, did I?" in his smarmy voice.

This is classic narcissistic behavior. Avoid the issue, turn it around on the person they are insulting or injuring or screwing in one form or another, and hope they appear like the one with brains. They need to have some kind of control because they are completely out of control themselves - they have no core. If they did, there would be compassion and not taunting.

When my therapist (a LE junkie) offered me Ecstasy to get rid of PMS and I refused, he turned it into me having a control problem, not being able to let go. Interesting how he left the country soon thereafter. He faked his empathy, claiming to know what it's like to be this way, and I'm sure that is true. But, people like him do not see that all the LE courses in the world, all the drugs, all the other disciplines that so many participants try, are just another fix. They feel like they have the answer and want to evangelize (because it's not that they want to help, they just want credit for fixing you).

Anyway - thanks for that post.