I don't have anything particular new or unique to share that you all probabaly aren't aware of already. However I felt a desire to share this anecdote in the hopes that it might do somebody somewhere some good. Back in June of 2000 my best friend did the forum. I'd never heard of Landmark or the forum, although I had heard of Est. Unfortunately she did it and loved it, and soon thereafter she was encouraging me to go to one of her forum in action meetings when guests are welcome which I guess is every single meeting. I was astonished that several people actually drove all the way from Duluth to Edina, MN--and on a work night no less. Yes, there was an "us vs. them" mentality. And some of the sharing was a little creepy, for it was really hard to tell just exactly these people were trying to say. Nevertheless everyone enthusiastically clapped and I dutifully, though perplexed yet not totally immune to the claque, clapped right along with them. My friend seemed to understand it all though, and be strangely moved by the whole thing. It was sort of disturbing, and I felt more than a little uncomfortable. She pointed out one guy who apparently had been argumentative with the "coach," and she told me that everyone had "hated" him when he challenged the coach; but now she and they loved him. I took that to mean because he clearly seemed to have had a change of heart about Landmark. I'll never know for sure though. Later the guests were separated and given the looooooooooong sales pitch. Everyone seeme so genuine and eager to appear like a good person--the guests I mean. The forum people were friendly, though I found out when I asked too precise metaphysics questions that the forum rep. implied that I needed to be "coachable," and she wasn't quite smiling as much. I have to admit she was an excellent public speaker, and she really knew how to wow a crowd. It wouldn't surprise me if 3/4's of those people signed up. Not even 24 hours later I got a phone call from a forum volunteer who asked me what I thought of the presentation and if I would join. Because of my friend's huge credibility I did sign up over the phone, but a few weeks later I found culteducation.com and what it had to say about Landmark. Naturally I shared all of this with my friend; but I was astonished how she breezily dismissed it all away without any curiosity on her part whatsoever. "It wasn't like that!" was a common exclamation from her. The deeper I dug the more worried I got. About 3 weeks before I would have done the forum my friend did the advanced course. She called during her lunch break, and at first she sounded like her old self since she clearly was not pleased with the first part of the advanced course. However by the end of it she was sold or sold herself, I guess I'll never really know for sure. Well, finally about 2 weeks before my forum experience she called me from her cell, like she did everyday when the rush hour traffic was at a dead stop. She was really talking in the forum jargon big time, and I don't know but something in me sort of snapped and I told her to stop talking like that, that it's annoying and impolite to talk in a language that another doesn't understand. She got indigant, and once again cited where during the forum somebody had expressed a similar sentiment, and of course she said to me about him, "we all hated them and the coach yelled at them." Well, I stood my ground. She got less and less communicative, and then she abruptly hung up. It's been two years since we've communicated--ten years of friendship destroyed by, thank you very much, Landmark. For weeks and months I was really starting to wonder if I was the crazy one, and she and Landmark had really stumbled onto something that I was no doomed for all eternity to miss out on. God she was so emphatic, yet not even remotely like my dear beloved old friend anymore. She had never tried to manipulate me or use the word "hate" not even once in my presence. I finally realized that if our friendship was to suddenly be predicated on my doing the forum or else then she was not a friend any longer. I prefer to think of her as suffering from a mental illness, and thus I do not take her shunning of me personally. Just 6 month before my mother had died, and never in my life did I ever think that my friend and I would lose our friendship. It was so sudden and shocking that it almost seemed like she died too. I've found Mr. Ross's site and the 1995 edition of "Cults in our Midst" to be a great help. And I'm a little embarrassed to say I took it out on some of the forum boosters at the awareness page guest book. But then again I never tried to take away a friend of their's who was as beloved as mine was.
I wonder if I'll ever see her again. But I've moved on with my life, and I share my experience of this when it seems appropriate. I wish those of you who read this better luck. And thanks to all the others for sharing as well, for it really helps to see that there are others who feel and have felt as I have. I only log on once and a while, so don't be offended if a reply is slow although one really isn't expected. Do as you wish.

feels like someone has died. It is very painful. Their personalities have changed.

I am sorry to hear about the "loss" of your friend. I think we can all more or less relate esclusivly to your story here. Can I suggest you continue to read the posts contained here - have hope though! In my experience the "symptoms" of the Forum doctrine acually start to wane and the fundamental mental processes which they would seek to take away (ie: rationality, opinions) will come back - and with it (god willing) you friend.

Take care.

Pauly
Bsc (OHS Env Law) Hons.

Eric & Pauly,

I didn't see a way to reply to each of your replies separately so I hope I 'm doing this right by simply doing a general reply. Thanks for your empathy and encouragement. I'll do tend to revisit the Ross site, and I'll continue to visit here since it does seem to help. Hopefully all of our lost ones will return someday.

Karl

Karl,

The die-hard Forum fans I've known have all fizzled after a while. Some took years, others took months. If you are still willing to pick up where you left off, give it some time. One woman in particular, that I did my Forum with, had just been conned by a guy only several days before the Forum. He told her he was interested in moving forward in their relationship with her, they were talking about marriage, they finally had sex, and he disappeared. She entered her Forum with this on her mind, they blamed her, she fell for it and could say nothing negative about the Forum. With the Forum's guidance, she "made up" with her Dad, who had abandoned her when she was a child. She didn't feel she needed any therapy or any more work on either of these relationships, only needed other Forum people. She also ditched friends.

About six months later, she found herself pretty lost and depressed, simply because real human emotions had not been worked through with Forum technology. In fact, it is probably more denial than anything else that is instilled. She went through a period of being embarassed to admit she no longer felt the same way about Forum, guilt about snubbing her friends, and then had to start working through the pain of being lied to by the guy and facing the true abandonment issues with her Dad, after she told him SHE had been running a racket on HIM.

She had already linked the two experiences together before the Forum got past their initial selling period (well into Friday evening). The Forum mocked therapy during the rest of the weekend. She got her friends back, however.

Hi, Hope,

I'll put your words inside these: < > and my replies will be after each one.

<<The die-hard Forum fans I've known have all fizzled after a while. Some took years, others took months. If you are still willing to pick up where you left off, give it some time. One woman in particular, that I did my Forum with, had just been conned by a guy only several days before the Forum. He told her he was interested in moving forward in their relationship with her, they were talking about marriage, they finally had sex, and he disappeared. She entered her Forum with this on her mind, they blamed her, she fell for it and could say nothing negative about the Forum. With the Forum's guidance, she "made up" with her Dad, who had abandoned her when she was a child. She didn't feel she needed any therapy or any more work on either of these relationships, only needed other Forum people. She also ditched friends. >>

I really sickens me how they plagiarize stuff from cognitive behavior therapy and then say the forum is not psychology; and how they plagiarize stuff from new age and Eastern philosophy and then say that the forum hasn't anything to do with religion or spirituality. They act like they invented it all and that throughout all the history of humankind we were just a bunch of hopelessly lost misfits until our "lord and savior" Werner came along and literally solved all of mankinds social ills in one moment on a freeway somewhere in California. It comes across as phoney as the pseudo biographies of L. Ron Hubbard in all of his Sci. Fi. books.

I just don't get how LEC people without degrees and licenses to practice therapy but instead some unaccredited dubious LEC "training" can go around playing at making "diagnoses" and playing therapist like that--especially when all they do is peddle the same one-size-fits-all panacea: DO THE FORUM. But then that wasn't good enough so: DO THE ADVANCED FORUM. But then that wasn't good enough either so DO someting else...ad infinitum....

<<About six months later, she found herself pretty lost and depressed, simply because real human emotions had not been worked through with Forum technology. In fact, it is probably more denial than anything else that is instilled. She went through a period of being embarassed to admit she no longer felt the same way about Forum, guilt about snubbing her friends, and then had to start working through the pain of being lied to by the guy and facing the true abandonment issues with her Dad, after she told him SHE had been running a racket on HIM.>>


I can imagine my friend being too ashamed to face me. She was such an ultra Oprah watching new age idealist, and she was always in love and wanted to be a self-help/new age seminar leader and/or promoter so to her it seemed like a godsend. They really had her before she even walked into the first forum. She didn't really have any bad issues, she was simply someone who yearned to know herpurpose in life and live it and do it as a living. I can empathize with that desire, but I don't believe it can be got for a few hundred dollars and some sleep deprivation. Pay money; be happy. Yeah, right.

<<She had already linked the two experiences together before the Forum got past their initial selling period (well into Friday evening). The Forum mocked therapy during the rest of the weekend. She got her friends back, however.>>


Yet they when questioned they admit lifting psychological ideas from psychology. Psychology is their only real adversary that could put them out of business if it could be proved that LEC was practicing enough psychological techniques to be just the rose by another conveniently vague name.

I am seeing a therapist tonight who specializes in cult therapy and treatment for people who are affected by loved ones exposed.

I find the posts so far to be encouraging.

I believe the effects can be various short term but with a lot of repercussions regarding relationships.

Unfortunately, I have not reacted the right way regarding this situation. It is very difficult to see people are actually mind controlled because my personality rejects this type of manipulation and the if you are close to someone who is and is rejecting you for that reason - you are suddenly figuratively talking to Al Queda - it's a different language and attitude. Being rejected when it is out of your control and mind driven is very painful.

In fact I can pinpoint the personality types that are prone to this type of manipulation. Rigid. Perfectionist. Low tolerance for ambiguity. Low tolerance for stress. Submissive or passive under stress or when challenged. Their personality melts under the stress these trainers dump on you. The trainers are good. I do not have know whether they should be awarded their own country or shot. Perhaps both. They will talk up their education. Psychology. Doctor (of engineering?). Anything to legitimize their ability to lead you into the next $1000 sale.

I have met the trainers. Admired them. Studied them. They are slick. And rich. They live where they want and travel the world commanding $10G's per training. Remember they are capable of getting a room of 50 people to pay $1000. Do the math.

The people who own these workshops? The same that could run Enron or MCI. Lie and steal. Turning human souls into their bank account ledgers.

I am convinced I have lost my ex for a while. Perhaps a long while. I have not done a good job holding on since they recommend you do not criticize (this is a suggestion for someone reading) DO NOT CRITICIZE the cult/training/trainers/leaders, etc.

It's like a wart. Something that can be removed and is gross to look at. If you comment on it and make the person feel bad for having it on their skin even though they think it looks good - you will lose them. Their anger and shame will work against you for picking on something that you think can be removed. It can. But not by you or me.

I wish to apologize, for I accidentally deleted your mail so I cannot reply if that was your hope. Let me offer my sympathies for your loss. I hope it is resolved to your satisfaction. It sort of reminded me of a woman who I fell head over heels for 10 years ago, but she wanted to be "just friends" only with me because she had a thing for thuggish bar dwellers. I chased her and chased her for two years, but he got her in two weeks. In your instance, Landmark rather than another male is the rival. As with your girlfriend and my best friend from previous, a direct blunt approach doesn't work. I know, for I tried it too, but all it did was push both of them away. Forget about "logic" when certain someones want something or someone when they insist that they/it feels soooo good.

I suspect that there is a personality profile for people susceptible to these things. I recall an APA study that showed that people who are drawn to large group awareness therapies are already psychologically defective, and thus are more prone attend and more vulnerable to such manipulations--whether they be LGAT or bar thugs. What's worse, the new LGAT enthusiasts want to drag in their closest friends and loved ones. Then when you don't comply they dump you. Landmark is really sort of like the Borg on Star Trek. They both think that they're perfect, and on they're an obsessive/compulsive mission to "assimilate/indoctrinate" the universe, and that we are misguided fools for shunning them. As a result, suddenly you're not worthy of their love, time and attention if you don't comply.

After much reflection I came to this conclusion: A friend and a manipulator are not the same thing. In that same vein there's an old saying: If somebody borrows 200 dollars from you and then you never see them again then it was probably worth it. I don't like my "new and improved" friend, for she is a manipulator who isn't authentic about her motives. Thus as long as she's adamant about being a forum freak then like the 200 dollar borrower---good riddance. But if she ever returns to the old friend who I could trust, then I'll welcome her.

We each have to deal with loss in our own time and our own ways. Many share what they think are wise words after a death in the family. Yet only one person had anything to say that really made an impression on me. Everybody else's was just words words words. Unlike Landmark, I don't claim that my way should be your way too. But I've felt similarly to how you feel. It sucks, but eventually you'll realize that you were happy before you knew she existed. You'll be happy again. You don't need her. You truly never did. Your happiness is something you can feel anytime you'll let yourself feel it.

I found the book many years ago"Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns (the only self help book I know of to be based on science rather than kooky "feel goodism" bs) to be very helpful for the depression that often follows such ordeals. I was astonished how he laid out an empirical methodology for actually proving to one's self that happiness has nothing to do with whom you are with. Rather, it has everything to do with how you are.

It has nothing to do with how "smart" someone is. People have always described me as "so intelligent," and yet I was ignorant enough in this regard. Well, plainly said this realization of happiness coming from within was an epiphany for me. I'm not insinuating that you need to learn this too. You seem very adjusted and taking your punches very well, but there may be someone else who reads this who is suffering, and for them it will be a blessing. Unlike Landmark, Dr. Burns tells how to replicate his resuslts based on 20 to 40 years of research and prove him right...or wrong. How refreshing! Be well, and I offer you my blessing and to all who might find this helpful.

That the woman who runs this organization or the "queen bee" has a narcissistic personality and was targeting my ex-girlfriend to gather followers that will always agree. I became a "problem" when I did not.

I also learned that she may be "under" for a while. And, yes there was some personality disorder that allowed her to fall into this organization so deeply. I believe that is true with anyone who goes "under".

Another characteristic is that she is middle age and looking for answers in life that are quick and immediate.

The pain of how she is rewriting her history with me is unbearable so I am letting go.

I agree I am better off right now.

Eric,

You concluded with the following:

<<It's like a wart. Something that can be removed and is gross to look at. If you comment on it and make the person feel bad for having it on their skin even though they think it looks good - you will lose them. Their anger and shame will work against you for picking on something that you think can be removed. It can. But not by you or me.>>

Yes, I concur. Paradoxically sometimes the most powerful thing we can do is "nothing" insofar as direct contact with the individual is concerned. There are some situations in which there simply is nothing we can do and we simply have to back off, leave them alone and get on with our lives. Clearly you are doing that.

For anyone else here: When direct intervention is not appropriate or possible, it has been my experience that maintaining a secret but unconditional positive regard, as termed by the famous psychologist, for the person in question and moving on with your life will sometimes results in the person having a change of heart all on their own whilst all the while it seemed like you were doing "nothing." We don't stop loving the person (wife, husband, child, mother, father) even if what they now think or do is perplexing to us.

For those of you who believe in spiritual intervention, I suggest the following metaphysical experiment to prove or disprove for yourself and make your own conclusions: Whenever the person in question comes to your mind, bless them and the situation and send them unconditional love wherever they are whatever they are doing--but do it all in secret, regardless of whatever else you may be doing in the real world that seems appropriate intervention at the time if any. Telling someone you are doing this will make the person defensive and resistant, and also if it doesn't work then at least you won't look like a fool. Regardless of whether or not you believe such spiritual interventions will accomplish anything with the person, you'll find that your own peace of heart and mind will return to you. It's like dating: paradoxically we first have to learn to be happy alone and "quit trying so hard" to suddenly find ourselves showered with new attention from the opposite sex. F

Karl