Hi,

I appreciate this thread.

This has been a very tough 2 and a half weeks. I am starting to come out of my depression and I can see a lot more realistically.

Thanks to friends, support from this WEB and therapy - I can see that I had no control over losing my girlfriend to this cult.

Without therapy and reading all of the articles by Dr. Singer and other testimonials - I would have been gone.

I want to help people learn about this and recover. I want to fight the parasites that run these companies. Like the "worms" in MIB II, these beings hardly qualify as human. Now, I can understand Auschwitz.

Letting go and praying for the person's well being is a very good start.

These cults take your loved ones and turn them against you. That is so damaging that all you can do is pray sometimes. And wait for them to come back.

Hi, Eric,

<<I want to help people learn about this and recover.>>

I understand your passion and your anger, for I've felt them myself. One definition of wisdom that I came up with is that it's knowing how to transform a negative into a positive. With that understanding your peace of heart and mind will return to you. Vague philosophizing yes, but if your loss inspires you to help others then perhaps it was a necessary evil to make you aware of qualities you never fully realized. I wouldn't share it unless I had undergone the same emotional transformation myself. Just a thought. I am exhausted after dancing to Mardi Gras cajun music all night--me and dozen gals who kept my dancing nearly three hours nonstop. I'll get back into my 32 inch jeans yet! Minus 34 inches and counting....

Karl

I want to thank Karl for responding. This has really saved me.

Last night I took a drive to Las Vegas from L.A. and I stopped at the rest stop and could not finish the trip. I was so depressed which I have learned is anger pointed inward. I just slept in the car. Turned around and went home.

What makes this loss hard is the fact we were takling of marriage and deeply committed to each other. All through Christmas, New Years.

After New Years, she did a volunteer for her ex-boyfriend's 3rd weekend (graduation) retreat. After that she started to "snap".

She made life so difficult for me. You get to a point as you mentioned Karl that you can't take it anymore and you finally let them know your frustration.

For me, she became so picky and ridiculous over the most minute things. This is not a freak thing in case someone wanting to learn symptons is reading this. I have discovered that the training increases one's rigidity and obsessiveness.

I also learned that my ex was "targeted". Both by her controlling ex-boyfriend who wanted her back and the woman who ran the company who wanted to "divide and conquer". I wish I had more for a lawsuit. But I am considering a variety of legal options.

Letting go is the toughest when you are in love and you had many good things between you.

Another sympton is that the person predisposed towards this has passive tendencies under stress. She is drawn to conflict avoidance. So, one will be submitted to a whole series of passive agressive encounters that end in ridiculous arguments that your loved one will accumulate against you like points. With enough points the "manipulators" can say "See does this serve you?" [a favorite phrase of theirs]

They have many phrases in their lexicon.

1. That's about you . . .
2. What is it that you are pretending not to know? (rhetorical)
3. You get to be right.
4. Given the results . . .

Basically these are called "self terminating" remarks that do not open discussion. The "you get to be right" one was my death knell. Whenever I would present an observation that I wanted to open up a discussion - she would shut me down and say "you get to be right." When this is your loved one and she is rejecting you in this manner - you want to scream.

Also the put the world around them in black and white terms or perspective. There is very little middle ground or "gray" area.

To give fair notice: My ex-girlfriend was looking in a big way for this type of training. She is middle age. Two kids. Lost a job and could not find a new one. She was desperate to change her life in a meaningful way.

Again, someone who is pre-disposed towards this type of cult/mind control/human potential training is someone who is really looking for fast answers to life and is desperate in ways that are not apparent.

I feel very sad for her. I have cried over her as if she had died. In a way, perhaps.

She left clothes behind which she did not retrieve so fittingly I dontated them to a battered women's shelter.

I doubt she will come back.

Greetings:

You said:

<<For me, she became so picky and ridiculous over the most minute things. This is not a freak thing in case someone wanting to learn symptons is reading this. I have discovered that the training increases one's rigidity and obsessiveness.>>


My friend too confessed to having almost physically painful reactions to anyone who was being "negative." Unfortunately Landmark, it got the impression, also programmed my friend to think of any criticism of Landmark as "being negative" too. She seemed to have a very hostile reaction to any criticism no matter how scholarly, well researched and mildly & politely expressed. I'll confess to being a mystic, a yogi, but I'm also trained in the scientific method and have used it in my research. As a result I'll never call myself "new age," for to be blunt: There are far too many kooks and kooky organizations that refer to themselves as that overinclusive categorization "new age" that I do not ever want to be associated with and the guilt thereof that in sufficient cases is amply deserved.

I too had some depression, but thankfully it was mild enough that reading "Feeling Good" by Dr. David Burns and doing the self-help exercises was sufficient for me. I don't claim it's a panacea for everyone, yet I think it should be required reading for everyone since it really helps one to understand the mechanics of so many emotional ills that plague modern society--anger, procrastination, depression, loneliness and so on.

For those of you others who may be suffering from the last, loneliness, I highly recommend another book by Dr. David Burns called "Intimate Connections." I did a lot of research as an undergrad. on loneliness and depression, and I saw the techniques in his book transform a lot of lonely & dating- perplexed people into people who suddenly had much improved social poise and personal magnetism and hence MORE DATES with the opposite sex. Another fascinating book but more for guys is called "Nice Guys and Players." It helps guys to understand why just being "nice" isn't enough and how to become a more well rounded and whole man while not ever being disprespectful or manipulative of women. Indeed both books are respectful of both sexes. I've done fairly well in dating circles and have had many lady friends, but I have to admit that there was alot of the "game" that I never knew. It's sort of like having a worldly older brother who gives you that advice you wish you would have gotten when you were eighteen.<sigh> Looking back I sure made some dumb mistakes.

Thank you again Karl,

I keep responding in the thread instead of directly because I want other people to benefit from this.

I do not want this to happen to others but I know it will.

I have a confession of a foreshadow early on in the relationship. Frankly, when I heard my girlfriend was taking this Lifespring/MITT/Landmark type training in Advance - I was worried that she would hook up with someone because of the "emotional kool-aid" they were giving out. I took it from her enrollment so I could stay in the game so to speak. Insecure on my part. But after I signed up I was genuinely interested.

When I was in the Legacy or last training - the cult characteristics really became apparent. What brought it out was the fact my girlfriend's ex-boyfriend who was also taking this same training workshop was becoming hostile and jealous. These workshops were degrading into soap opera feuds. The woman that owned this company was having "henchmen" call my girlfriend's house and inquire about her kids, whether they are O.K. Then the same woman was getting involved in my love relationship. I went to her office and spoke to her privately, asking her to please not interfere in my personal relationship. After all, this was suppose to be a human potential workshop, not 5th WHEEL.

I quit when I saw it was becoming too personal and they could not answer basic questions about us recruiting for a profit organization.

I thought I had disappeared from their interest until my girlfriend began reporting their unusual interest in me after I left. It is pernicious. But my point: clearly early on I sensed there was a potential for emotional disaster when my intuition told me I should take the training as well to be near her. Unconsciously I realized that she was an easy mark for these workshops. This is not an easy thing to admit and certainly there is nothing I could if my girlfriend was looking to get hooked.

But I believe if you have a loved one that is contemplating this type of workshop - you probably already have a sense how it is going to affect them. I am angry with myself for not paying attention to the signs more seriously. I honestly thought once I took the workshop and passed my entrance, I could leave a "workshop citizen". Does not work like that. Turns out the people who graduate like she did do not consider the ones who do not worth associating with. But that is programming from this disgusting owner. I am sure it is universal since the owners; managers of these businesses want to create a small society of those who belong and those who do not. The tone is very Nazi. One world and all of that.

But I will check out these books. I am interested in anything that will help me recover quickly. I have lost a lot of money and time - and I do not want to be a victim of my loss.

I have to balance myself. Right now I want to spend every minute fighting these groups, but I have to give myself time to do that. If ever there was a cause I could get behind. Human potential MLMs should be legislated to be only non-profit. Perhaps that is something I could behind.

Come to think of it - a strong naiveté is a good indication of someone who could be pulled in. My ex-girlfriend could not identify the rival factions in the Middle East or even traveled out of the country or carry a college degree.

She was ignorant of many things. Perhaps this is why these workshops really take off in third world countries. Not to say they are ignorant but they are unsophisticated. The people who were left in my Legacy training were either out of work, blue collar or handicap to hearing.

I lost someone who lacked a lot of critical thinking. Still she was sweet. The sadness is from the victimization that she just wanted a "quick cure" and instead meets "Dracula". This is where I believe state or federal legislation could help.

As Rick Ross posted a while back, Landmark is being peddled to the IRS. They have a strong presence on college campuses (including the naturopathic college that my doctor graduated from - he used their techniques as "therapy"). Large corporations are also sending their employees to human potential seminars like Landmark.

I have an idea regarding sending a speaker (or at least literature) to the annual meetings of national and state human resources organizations to get the word out, and also to local and state government. Anyone out there want to help me develop this idea?

Hi Eric,

If this forum provides a medium that you feel helps you to help others, then that seems OK to me. I've warned everyone I know about Landmark and Lifespring with links to culteducation.com, Mr. Ross has my story as his site called. "I hate Landmark for taking my best friend," I posted my opinions and research materials based therefrom in the Skeptic's Dictionary and similar pages; and cited books like Singer's Cults in Our Midst and the excellent expose on EST and Landmark entitled "Outrageous Betrayal" by Pressman. I don't know how anyone could read Pressman's book and still like EST or Landmark.

I've also posted the same info on various forums; posted a few scathing book reviews at a popular on-line bookstore as well as a cautionary book guide in the new age/yoga/mystical section of that same popular on-line bookstore, a witherirng critique of the non-thinking that so many Landmark types demonstrate at the Awareness Page guest book, and also at the Skeptic's Dictionary. Meaningful and helpful catharsis or futile rantings--I really don't know sometimes. Perhaps both: It depends on who is doing the reading. People hear what they want to hear based on how they've been prepared to filter the information.

Indignation and anger--I guess it's a stage we go through in such a situation. I just don't have the desire for that anymore, and I know it's time to move on for me at least. I feel exhausted just thinking about it. You can only help people if they want to be helped. My friend didn't respond well to mine. She has a non-Landmark husband and daughter, so past a certain point it's really not my place to meddle anymore. It's their's if they dare.So I've moved on. But if it helps you to do likewise then post away. I wish you better luck than I've had. I've read some accounts where aggressive interventions paid off. You may be another one who posts such a success. I hope you can.

I simply got sick of Landmark types mindless circular logic, their mindless new age "feel goodisms," and their blatant intolerance of any ideas that do not match their own--like how they suppressed the 1995 hardcover edition of "Cults in Our Midst" when Singer exposed Landmark and similar groups so plainly and then try to characterize her as being "intolerant" of any and all "alternative religions or philosophies" which is total B.S.. Beware of people who "Baa and Moo"tolerance all the time, for they can be some of THE MOST appallingly INTOLERANT groups and individuals you'll ever see. They're VERY creepy almost like nazis in their zealousness. God save the person who works or goes to school or post secondary school in such an environment and is targeted by such people for whatever reasons. Landmark plays on that kind of post-modern "witch hunting."

Although it all felt so futile sometimes, I did get some positive feedback, and for that at least I feel like my efforts did help a few. I'll be off line for a week or two, but I'm sure many silent readers who have concerns about Lardmark and similar will be grateful for the information and the camaraderie. Good luck. I'll be popping in less often, and I may not always reply since I really don't think I have much else to contribute on this thread; but if it seems appropriate I will. Take care.

Karl

Hi, Hope:

<<I have an idea regarding sending a speaker (or at least literature) to the annual meetings of national and state human resources organizations to get the word out, and also to local and state government. Anyone out there want to help me develop this idea?>>

I've sent the excerpt "Intruding into the Workplace," by Singer in her '95 book "Cults in Our Midst" to some community churches and all the local media. I know Lifespring was exposed by KARE 11 TV here in Minneapolis, but they turned around and sued KARE. I have told people I know who are studying at chiropractic, massage and acupuncture schools about Landmark, since Landmark seems to feel that people in alternative medicine fields are more open to new ideas and thus more vulnerable. Some had heard of them and have a dim view of Landmark, but many others have never hear of it it or even Est. And Landmark is so vague about its specifics that they can come across like just another new age seminar ad nauseum to them, and I think this is by design. I've thought the same thing as you about getting the word out to businesses, but I don't know anyone in those circles especially, but I think we really need to innoculate our businesses, schools and universities. So far word of mouth seems to be the only way I've seen. If I hear of anything I'll share it. Mr. Ross and/or Dr. Singer would be worth every penny to be key note speakers at such an anti-cult/cult-like innoculation seminars.
ONe would think that this cannot be someting new under the sun, and that there has to be something like this out there already that would be available for a fee to be made available at a "city near you."

Karl

I would like to help give out information about this to HR GROUPS.

This is a very dangerous to be bringing groups of people into.

I have some ideas.

These are books I have ordered from amazon.com. I will read and post a review.


"Recovery from Cults: Help for Victims of Psychological and Spiritual Abuse"
Michael D. Langone (Editor); Paperback; @ $12.57 each

"Cults in Our Midst"
Margaret Thaler Singer, et al; Hardcover; @ $13.97 each

"Combatting Cult Mind Control"
Steven Hassan; Paperback; @ $10.47 each


thanks