Hi Hope,

Only the suppressed 1995 "Cults in Our Midst" will have anything about LGAT's and LEC in particular. Unfortunatley Singer was retired when she wrote it and didn't have the legal backing of the university when LEC sued, so they managed to have the LGAT material suppressed in subsequent editions.

Another book that is particularly galling to LEC is "Outrageous Betrayal," by Stephen Pressman, but I don't know how available it is at the moment.

Wrote to Mr. Ross re. your post b4 last to see what he had to say. I'll post it verbatim when/if he replies.

Karl

That is so disgusting the level of legal suppression from these organizations.

This really makes you want to fight these guys.

What would someone say on putting together some strategies offline?

The Cults in Our Midst book I ordered is probably not the '95 edition.

eric

Just a quick note before I go for anyone who might be interested:
There are 15 used copies of "Outrageous Betrayal" at Barnesandnoble.com in various conditions and prices.

This book is probably the most revealing, and what it reveals about Werner Erhard, Est and Landmark is utterly appalling. I don't see how anyone could read it and still defend Werner, Est or Landmark. BTW, I hear Werner changed his name AGAIN. I wouldn't be surprised if Landmark will decide to change its name again too when the s---hits the fan about them again...just another Est by another name.

Karl

[www.alibris.com] is an excellent resource. Registering is easy and they have just about everything that has ever been printed in English. When you verify that they have the edition that you want, check Amazon.com and Barnesnoble.com, do some comparison pricing, and then place your order!

eBay, half.com, Hamilton Booksellers - all are good sources for hard-to-find books. Alibris has helped me find all kinds of books.

I have some ideas, too, about getting the word out to businesses. Been in training all week for a new job, so will be in touch on the weekend.

Hope

I'm so sorry you lost your best friend to Landmark Education. I had a similar experience with a girl I met a few months ago who had been involved in Landmark for 15 years and is currently a course leader (un-paid, of course). I'm still a little shaken by my experience since this was the first girl I've met in a very long time who I thought could be "the one".

It all started innocent enough. When we first met, I was unemployed and had just started to turn my life around after a short period of depression (as is common with most people who have been laid off). Meeting her was incredible and we had a great energy between us that was obvious even to our friends. Soon after meeting, she started telling me about Landmark and how I should take the Forum as it will greatly change my life. She wasn't too pushy at first, but became unbearably pushy as time went on. This is when I started doing some deeper research into Landmark and found loads of mostly negative information... except for the "Landmark Education" web site. When I told her what I had found, she got real upset that I would believe my research over her. I finally told her that I was absolutely NOT interested and our relationship wouldn't last if she kept pushing the subject. In the end, she decided to give up our great "connection" in favor of Landmark. She said her desire to "spread the word" was part of her being and she just couldn't be with somebody who didn't want to see what she "was up to".

What really baffled me was that she supposedly owned her own business but spent much more time doing "volunteer" work for Landmark than her business. Most of her friends were all part of Landmark and all could be classified as being upper middle class. She came from a wealthy family as well which sort of explains how it really didn't matter if her business succeeded or not. In hindsight, all of her language and opinions were straight out of Landmark teachings. She would constantly use their buzzwords and was always on the phone talking to her Landmark "friends".

The real kicker of this whole experience happened a couple weeks ago when she asked me to give her a ride to the airport. She has plenty of friends who she could have called, but I was the "chosen" one. When arriving at her house, she was all over me and the attraction was mutual (we never had any issues in this area). So we made love and I brought her to the airport to go on her ski trip. To top it off, we both exchanged words of love (which I don't take too lightly). So... when Valentines Day came around, I asked her out on a date and she accepted. We had a great time until getting back to her place and just before "doing the deed", she told me I should wear a condom because the ski trip was more of a swinger's retreat and she had unprotected sex. I was in shock, but we made love anyway. I just couldn't believe she could be so careless and have no remorse about it. To top it off, she later even said she was upset with herself because I had made her too sore to participate for the first three days... gross! And this came from the same girl I dated for a month before having any sort of sex because we both wanted to get tested first.

See, the thing about Landmark is that they teach you to ignore the past so anything you do now is OK because it will be in the "past" tomorrow. In other words, anything is a "possibility".

I just wish I could have met this girl before her Landmark involvement so I could have really learned about her and not the person Landmark created. The deep down energy we possessed was not a Landmark creation and is not something a person finds every day. I realy hate Landmark Education for what it did to us.

I am "friends" with just about every girl I've ever dated, but I think this one is going to be an exception.

I read your post.

I have my experiences with someone I was deeply in love with who was victimized by these training workshops.

Several things I have learned by professional therapist on the subject and by reading documentation:

1. This girl probably has had some mental health issues before subscribing. I was told this about the person I was involved with. This might answer the swinging lifestyle. It is not a component of the training workshops.

2. Although, being inconsistent and using faulty logic is a component of these workshops. They teach a defense mechanism that allows the participant to shut out issues that raise their anxiety level. It is done in a highly controlled and consistent way. You will never have the same conversation with person because they always change their story.

Her sexual promiscuity is another issue. The good news is that the training does wear off. But if she goes for remedial staffing and visits - she could go in and out.

My ex-girlfriend goes in and out from using the jargon. But I have worked hard to break her dependence on this cult by introducing her family. If you can find some way to intervene, you have a chance. But this girl sounds like with a wealthy background and friends that she can weather your intervention.

I would be careful of getting hurt emotionally. These trainings can emotionally wreck a person who is involved with a participant.

Greetings:

You said:

<<We had a great time until getting back to her place and just before "doing the deed", she told me I should wear a condom because the ski trip was more of a swinger's retreat and she had unprotected sex. I was in shock, but we made love anyway. I just couldn't believe she could be so careless and have no remorse about it. To top it off, she later even said she was upset with herself because I had made her too sore to participate for the first three days... gross! And this came from the same girl I dated for a month before having any sort of sex because we both wanted to get tested first.>>

I've heard of EST people having casual sex. I believe it was in Pressman's book "Outrageous Betrayal." It's really a heart- sickening and demoralizing feeling when the woman you love and desire just gives it up to any old guy and then acts like you're the one with the problem when you disapprove. That's why I had to self-treat for depression, for I felt like nothing I did made any difference anymore, like I had no control over this very important aspect of human life and living.

<<See, the thing about Landmark is that they teach you to ignore the past so anything you do now is OK because it will be in the "past" tomorrow. In other words, anything is a "possibility".>>

Very convenient. If I was a swinger, that would be a very handy rationalization. I was VERY hurt and angry after my gf's betrayal, and I can understand why many "nice" guys turn into players. I was VERY tempted to do unto some like that like I was done unto. It's sort of a revenge thing for all crap we guys naively put up with from those kinds of women because we simply never thought in those terms. We were brought up better. It turns out I didn't, but I don't think I would have been too awfully remorseful about it, (more like repulsed since she's really more like an animal in that sense) for I don't think of manipulative users like those women and Landmark types as even being human--just calculating manipulative robots, a.k.a the enemy.

<<I just wish I could have met this girl before her Landmark involvement so I could have really learned about her and not the person Landmark created. The deep down energy we possessed was not a Landmark creation and is not something a person finds every day. I realy hate Landmark Education for what it did to us.>>

Yes, I understand. I hate landmark too for taking my best friend. You have my empathy and my sympathy. It's so DAMNED hard to find a good woman; let alone one you actually give a damn of what she thinks and feels and want to be with. And additionally it's even harder to find one who will feel the same way about you.

<<I am "friends" with just about every girl I've ever dated, but I think this one is going to be an exception.>>

I don't blame you. She reminds me of my gf who turned out to be a blatant tease for anything in pants, and she was proud of her ability to seduce and totally unmoved by the profound pain and sorrow that I felt because of her seductions. I'm sorry to say that it sounds like your friend has been transformed by LEC into something all-too-sadly similar. I'm sorry for you loss. I'm over her and over the worst of my depression. I'm still not dating anyone. Sometimes I feel like I never will again. Very discouraging. But at least we didn't get sucked into LEC. I spent my 375 on something much better.

Sorry to hear about your friend. Consider that perhaps the reason she is no longer in your life is because you insulted her. You say yourself that you were the one that snapped and told her to stop talking that way.

Although she may have become wierd because of her Landmark experience, you were just as rude and insensitive by telling how she should talk and act. Even though I have my own feelings about Landmark and its affects on people, I think its disengenuous to blame Landmark for your broken friendship.

Just my opinion.

Quote

She was really talking in the forum jargon big time, and I don't know but something in me sort of snapped and I told her to stop talking like that, that it's annoying and impolite to talk in a language that another doesn't understand. She got indigant, and once again cited where during the forum somebody had expressed a similar sentiment, and of course she said to me about him, "we all hated them and the coach yelled at them." Well, I stood my ground. She got less and less communicative, and then she abruptly hung up. It's been two years since we've communicated--

Doesn't sound like Karmal "snapped" and went nuts. It's clearly stated something inside snapped - Karmal got sick of hearing the tape recorded jargon and was being "authentic" in asking her to stop. If anythng, he was a little too patient. Her response to being asked to stop evangelizing was that "we all hated them and the coach yelled at them", them being the people who simply wanted them to lose the jargon. Yeah - hatred is a good tool to have in your self-improvement belt.

Landmark sent me an email advertising their new dating, roommate and job service. I think it's a great idea. They can all preach to the converted and have a great time.