Coz,

Yep, you listed a bunch of the reasons I'm not there. And most of those I learned on this site.

I had thought about going and sitting at the back without credit cards/checkbook, skipping the firewalk, etc. - but other personal reasons surfaced that kept me from attending. I already know and am clear on my values, so no Tony-speak could change my mind.

The misleading 72-hour refund policy on the Mastery stuff sold on Sunday night really bugs me - as do the Coaching Contract and policies. I'm a Life Coach myself, and think it's appalling.

On another note, I've also 'forgiven' myself for not accomplishing as much as 'I thought I should have' after going through Personal Power, Personal Power II and Get the Edge. It's now clear that the promise of success is in fact just a hook to get you into the feeding frenzy machine.

I'd gone 5 years without listening to/referring to TRs stuff - and found a pretty good way for myself. I was looking for a big boost into ACTION - and that's when I got hooked again.

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll get myself into action on my own.

Thanks again,

Kim

You have hit another nail on the head here.

People "blame themselves" for not accomplishing as much as they think they "should", and this self-downing leads to depression, frustration, and even self-loathing.

(Step #2: find your customers pain, and then stir up their pain, and make it worse)
(Step #3: heal them with you products and services)

In my view, to want to get into Action is a good thing.
But from my point of view, we can do it in a healthier way by using ideas from Behavior Therapy, or Cognitive Behavior Therapy.
This way, we can push ourselves at times to get things done that we are Avoiding, but we can forgo shaming ourselves for not being a Superperson.

You'll notice that Tony does not seem to teach unconditional self-acceptance. Why?

As I have said many times, most of his "psychological knowledge" seems to directly conflict with what is thought of as "healthy" currently in fields like CBT and REBT.
Why is this?

My view is that they are not so much there to "help us", but to serve as part of the overall sales process.
Robbins does not have the disciplined training to be giving psychological advice, in my opinion.
SELLING SELLING SELLING and psychological health do not make good bedfellows.

Coz

Quote
KimD
On another note, I've also 'forgiven' myself for not accomplishing as much as 'I thought I should have' after going through Personal Power, Personal Power II and Get the Edge. It's now clear that the promise of success is in fact just a hook to get you into the feeding frenzy machine.

I'd gone 5 years without listening to/referring to TRs stuff - and found a pretty good way for myself. I was looking for a big boost into ACTION - and that's when I got hooked again.

Thanks, but no thanks, I'll get myself into action on my own.

Someone made the analogy to me today, that these types of seminars, and their advertising, seem to be similar to some of the desired effects of cocaine.

This reminded me that many years ago, Robbins talked in quite a bit of detail about how cocaine was the #1 selling product in America.

Do you think it is possible that they have gone and carefully studied the short term "euphoric" effects of cocaine, and elicited the "submodalities" (NLP) of it, and then found a way to give people a similar manic "high" from a seminar, without using the actual drug?
Could these folks be trying to make their product into the #1 selling product in America too?

I have never done cocaine, but here is an example of some of its effects.

[www.thegooddrugsguide.com]
[b:e5861e2e41]"Mentally, you feel alert, energized, buzzing. You feel a sudden burst of euphoria and self-confidence which makes you more sociable and talkative. You talk lots.
Physically, your feel 'wired' - clenched jaw, wide-eyed, dilated pupils. Your heart rate, blood pressure and body temperature all rise. If you're in poor shape, be careful. You may also feel strong and sexually aroused."[/color:e5861e2e41][/b:e5861e2e41]


[www.cocaine-effects.com]
[b:e5861e2e41]Short-term cocaine effects include:
Increased blood pressure
Constricted blood vessels
Dilated pupils
Mental alertness
Increased energy
Increased heart rate
Decreased appetite
Increased temperature

People who try cocaine often get hooked to the short-term cocaine effects, namely feeling as though they have increased energy. The quick high keeps users feeling energetic and able to endure longer in physical activities. New cocaine users often try cocaine to increase productivity at work and in other areas of their lives so that they can work longer and harder. While these results may seem promising in the beginning, increased tolerance and dangerous life choices often follow repeated cocaine use.

One cocaine effect, appetite suppression, is very popular for people looking to lose weight or maintain a low weight. Fashion models have been known to use cocaine in order to stay thin. Cocaine users often go days without eating and if this behavior is continued it can lead to addiction. Increased heart rate, blood pressure, constricted blood vessels, dilated pupils, and increased temperature are all short-term physiological cocaine effects.[/b:e5861e2e41][/color:e5861e2e41]
----------------
This is a very interesting idea to explore, thanks to the person who brought it up to me. Notice even how the "appetite supression" is at play here.

Compare this to some of the written experiences (see below) of those who have done this "Firewalking", and have been through other seminars of this nature.

Coz

[www.tonyrobbins.com]

Upon further reflection, it seems very clear to me that these types of "firewalking" LGAT's are engineered to give people what is called a "Manic Episode", or Hypomanic episode.
Read the critieria of a Manic and Hypomanic episode, and compare this to the psycho-emotional states of people after these types of seminars.
To push people into this so-called "Peak State", pushing them 14 hours a day, until they might engage in an "unrestrained buying spree" and make "foolish business investments", is the perfect state for the "customer" to be in.

I think some of the people who design and run these seminars might be Manic-Depressive, and have learned that to try and push people into having a "manic episode" is good business.
Of course, not everyone can be pushed into this state, and some people are simply hypomanic, or just get a bit "overexcited".
But it seems clear to me.

Installing and triggering a type of Mania is the goal.
This is very scary stuff.

Coz

----------------
[www.psychologynet.org]
Manic Episode:

A distinct period of abnormally and persistently elevated, expansive, or irritable mood, lasting at least 1 week (or any duration if hospitalization is necessary).

During the period of mood disturbance, three (or more) of the following symptoms have persisted (four if the mood is only irritable) and have been present to a significant degree:

-inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
-decreased need for sleep (e.g., feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
-more talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking
-insomnia or hypersomnia nearly every day
-psychomotor agitation or retardation nearly every day (observable by others, not merely subjective feelings of restlessness or being slowed down)
-flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing
-distractibility (i.e., attention too easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant external stimuli)
-increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation [/color:12710de6da]
[b:12710de6da]-excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., engaging in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments) [/color:12710de6da][/b:12710de6da]



Hypomanic Episode:

A distinct period of persistently elevated, expansive, or irritable mood, lasting throughout at least 4 days, that is clearly different from the usual nondepressed mood.

During the period of mood disturbance, three (or more) of the following symptoms have persisted (four if the mood is only irritable) and have been present to a significant degree:

-inflated self-esteem or grandiosity
-decreased need for sleep (e.g., feels rested after only 3 hours of sleep)
-more talkative than usual or pressure to keep talking
-flight of ideas or subjective experience that thoughts are racing
-distractibility (i.e., attention too easily drawn to unimportant or irrelevant external stimuli)
-increase in goal-directed activity (either socially, at work or school, or sexually) or psychomotor agitation[/color:12710de6da]
[b:12710de6da]-excessive involvement in pleasurable activities that have a high potential for painful consequences (e.g., the person engages in unrestrained buying sprees, sexual indiscretions, or foolish business investments) [/color:12710de6da][/b:12710de6da]

Coz and all,

From the very start of my investigations into LGATs back in October 2003, people were labeling the symptoms of "transformed" participants as consistant with Bipolar Disorder. We need to be very careful in apply labels like these as we are not psychatrists. However, it does not take a genius to observe the consistencies in participant symptoms and those laid out in the DSMiv-TR, particularly the symptoms for Mania.

I for one now admit that for a 6 month period back in 1991, I was behaving in a consistant manner with such a diagnosis. I later participated in Firewalking and again, the symptoms returned.

I am interested in finding research work in this area. We seem to be gravitating towards a likely possibility and sound clinical research in this area may help.

Oz

I tend to agree with you here---that the goal of many LGAT facilitators is to produce the side effects of a Manic episode in participants - because that translates into more business.

It is dangerous as you may think you are the wiser one going in having educated yourself on these possibilities---and yet still fall victim to the manipulations.

But statistically, I would venture to guess that a small percentage of people attending them actually get to the point of Manic episode. Of course those statistics/studies are not out there---its just my hunch. I do not want to blame the victim by saying their genes or chemical imbalances caused the mania. But it would be very difficult to prove that an LGAT created a manic episode as SO many other factors play into this outcome- other contributing factors would be impossible to discount.

As in one of corboy's references (perhaps on another thread) - A good LGAT would employ a screening process before someone was psychologically "approved" for an LGAT to hopefully reduce the incidence of manic episode and other negative outcomes. Unfortunately, I would venture to say most LGAT organizers employ only a credit card screening process---if you got the admission fee- you're approved.

And this fact gets at the real motivation behind offering an LGAT - its not to help people as much as it is to get their money :(

Coz, see if you can put your questions about situation-induced manic high and bipolar manic episodes to persons who specialize in bipolar disorders and who teach at the various medical-psychiatry departments in OZ/NZ--see what they have to say.

Even when LGAT personnel are highly conscientious and do careful pre-screening, there could still be problems. One can inherit susceptibility to bipolar disorder, and be young enough that one has not yet had any episodes that could signal this.

Some time back on Craigslist.org, on a forum discussion, a person reported that he had his first bipolar/manic swing when taking his first transcontinental trip. His plane flight disrupted his sleep wake cycle and gave enough of a shove that he had a manic episode--thousands of miles from home.

I actually think having some type of Hypomanic episode after one of these particular seminars is not rare at all.
Some folks go into a mild form of a manic episode, and many folks seem to go into what is called a Hypomanic episode, even if just for a brief period of time. Many other folks just get very "overexcited". So there is no absolute line, it is more of a continuum.

All you have to do is look at the DSM criteria, and realize that only 3 of the criteria have to be met to qualify as a hypomanic episode.

For those who have never been to a seminar of the Guru in question, they need to understand that the audience is PUSHED into what is called a "Peak State", for hour after hour, 12-16 hours a day, for a number of days at a time. The seminar can go from 9am to 1am at times. So the goal in the seminar, is to "keep your energy up" to a 10 out of 10. You are literally instructed to PUSH yourself all day long to do this. People are instructed to jump up and down, and do all sorts of exercises to get themselves into a "Peak State". I know this sounds nuts, but when you are there, most people are trying to do this, as the Guru is telling you to do this. Also, there are no breaks, they go right through lunch, so your blood sugar is going to go low, yet at the same time you are making enormous physical demands on your body, so your body is going to roll out all sorts of "emergency survival drugs" to get that energy you need for these massive energy demands.
And you don't want to leave to take a pee, as you are afraid you might miss something. After doing this dozens and dozens of times, you can see people just get caught up in it, and mixed in with everything else, including the mass crowd hysteria, people literally start to go into a form of "mania". Now I am not talking about full-blown Mania, where a person is running down the street in their underwear claiming that they can talk to God. I am just talking about some of the criteria listed in the DSM.

If one has seen the speaker in question, and if one reviews the criteria given, and even applies it to the speaker in question, one can see there is plenty of this to go around.
And not only is there no screening, as I have said, people are encouraged, and socially pressured into "pushing themselves" all day long. If you don't do this, then you are "not playing full out" and you will be "playfully" berated, and even socially shamed when everyone around you is doing this to themselves all day long. If you refused to do it, people would look at you like there is something wrong with you, or that you had an attitude problem, or something. So there is lots of social pressure to conform.

Again, I think if you are not eating enough food, and not having enough sleep, yet you are making ENORMOUS energy demands on your body by pushing it ALL DAY into these "Peak States", its seems logical to me that your body is going to go into "emergency life or death survival mode", and is going to roll out all of your energy stores, and even internal "drugs" to give you that energy to get you through this false "life or death emergency".

You really have to see it to believe it in this case. When people do this "firewalk" after doing all of this other stuff, you can just see them go into a literal FRENZY, and these feelings linger for a few days after. Of course, after this "high" the person is going to crash, and go back to normal, or maybe even get very depressed, and then of course BLAME THEMSELVES for not being an alleged superman like the Guru. (no one ever sees what the guru does after these intense seminar weekends...that would spoil the Wizards illusion....)

But some folks start to think as they are TOLD BY THE GURU that they can LIVE in that overexcited manic state they were pushed into at the seminar.
So what do they do?
They go back to the seminar, over and over again.
There are many people who have done 10 firewalks.
They want to capture that "high" again.

Its yet another unattainable goal that keeps folks coming back over and over.

Here are some of the Thoughts/Behaviors they are instructed to repeat over and over.

-THE MORE ENERGY I USE, THE MORE ENERGY I HAVE.
-YOU CAN ABSOLUTELY LIVE AT LEVEL 10.
-Push yourself beyond where you are comfortable. Push yourself beyond your comfort zone with repetition.
-you are instructed to push yourself to emotional "thresholds", both painful and pleasurable.
-people try to Anchor these feelings in by screaming "YES!", and by jumping up and down, and pounding their fists to their chests, etc.

Again, this does not tell the entire picture. But just imagine hundreds of people, pushing themselves into a Peak State for 14 hrs or more a day, not eating enough, lack of sleep, mass crowd hysteria, jumping up and down, laughing, crying, screaming, and doing every crazy thing you can think of, and eventually your body must just give you a few shots of some powerful internal drugs to keep you going, in this "false life or death emergency". So people get this SURGE of energy, and they need less sleep, and they feel like Superpeople.

You can literally see all sorts of people saying things like,

I CAN DO ANYTHING.
I AM THE KING OF THE WORLD..
NOTHING CAN STOP ME
I CAN LIVE FOREVER.
etc.

People are actually encouraged to have these types of bloated and grandiouse thoughts, which are a critieria of hypomania and a manic episode. They are NOT healthy thoughts. They are sick thoughts, and need to be modified. (I can just see the followers of the Guru FREAK OUT when I say that).

I am quite certain that those who design these seminars could even tell you the specific drugs the body releases to cope with these extreme demands. I might look it up myself.
So it really could literally be a type of drug addiction.

Coz

A note about Sharks.

Its an interesting idea that LGATS try and filter out vulnerable people, but here is the terrible reality why this is NEVER going to happen.
Of course, they want to protect themselves from lawsuits, and from putting people into the hospital.

But these sharks, these Supersalesmen, have WET DREAMS thinking about when they are going to meet their next $ucker.
That is, a person who is "coachable" who happens to have a lot of money they can sign for.
Maybe from an inheritance, or lottery, or insurance settlement, etc.
They DREAM about these people.

And let me tell you something right here.
These guys will CLEAN THEM OUT.
They will do it legally in this context, through legal persuasion, but they will CLEAN THEM OUT if they can.
If they find someone like this, they will totally empty their accounts in a short period of time.

For most of us, this is hard to comprehend. But I have seen it, and I have known many guys who were more than capable of this. I worked with them. I trained with them. I saw what they were like on the inside. I would take them out for a drink and ask them about what was going through their minds.
They hated these "hard sales" as you can't get anything out of them.

But every once in a while, a nice, fat, soft prospect is going to come along, and they are going to sign away a FORTUNE.
They have contempt for these "stupid people" and usually just say, "well that's the way the world is", or even have much more sociopathic attitudes.

To see this for yourself, just get behind the curtain for a while.
Its like the military. They are trained to kill people, as that is their job.
These supersalespeople are trained to exploit weak people, and the best ones have no conscience, as there is nothing stopping them. And the best of the best, can FAKE that they care, and be a ruthless shark underneath. A conman.

These guys dream everyday about the next loaded $ucker who is going to come along, and they will CLEAN THEM OUT, without a second thought. As a matter of fact, it makes them FEEL GREAT when they do this! They sleep very well thank you very much!

These sharks LOVE these LGAT's, and the best of the best gravitate toward them, as there is so much money to be made, and the people are so "coachable". Its much harder in REAL business, when you have to deal with lawyers, and actual businesspeople.
In these LGAT's. you get "regular folks", who might have ZERO business training, and these guy can clean them out, like they could not in any other business field.

I hope I am communicating clearly here.
Some of the best sharks in the world end up in the LGAT business, as that is the easiest way to make big money as fast as possible.
How do you think these guys became millionaires in just a few years so easily?

Coz

Here are a few random yet typical audience reaction excerpts to a recent Firewalk seminar. Ponder these thoughts in light of what has been said in this thread recently, and about LGAT's in general. Notice the reason given at the end for being burned in the firewalk, and the impact they feel this is going to have on their entire life, and the feelings toward the Guru.

This has all been very carefully designed and engineered, and happens like clockwork everytime. Imagine having the skill to be able to do that to people.

Coz
-------------------------

www.tonyrobbins.com/community/forumdisplay.php?s=c62752edf572fd576b61b71e626f9120&forumid=8

"One of my magic moments I experienced is at the third night. When Tony was trying to wrap up the talk before the dinner break (already 8:00pm), the audience kept standing up and clapping for him more than 5 time. The love and enthusiasm of the audience was just like the unstoppable eruption of volcano, Tony tried to stop it, but found he could do nothing but accept it. At last, he dared not let audience to sit down! Tony is everyone’s hero, and thus he becomes a legend. I was so moved at the moment, what kind of person could be loved by 4000 people so much after three days’ seminar? Just because he loves us and tries his best to help us! Then I true understand that
love is giving, instead of receiving."
--------
Tony helped each one of us to born again. I had the best time in my life. I am a kid again. I found my lost soul.
The 4,000 participates are outstanding. We are very lucky to be in this group to go through the transformation process together.
Life will never be the same again.
I say "Tony for Presdient"!! Forget about George and John, we need a loving man to be the capitain and Tony is the man!!!"
----------------
What can be said in words to adequately describe a life-altering experience like UPW? From Friday's FIREWALK through Monday's LIVING HEALTH -- Tony Robbins is absolutely brilliant! It was too powerful to describe in mere words, since such powerful emotions were essentially integrated into the entire process! I can, however, with all honesty say...

"...Life...will NEVER... BE...THE SAME... AGAIN!!!" "...Life...will NEVER... BE...THE SAME... AGAIN!!!" "...Life...will NEVER... BE...THE SAME... AGAIN!!!"

YES!
YES!
--------------
What I went through is indescribable. The only way I can try to express the weekend into a word is WOW! I have never felt so alive, so happy, so proud in my life. This last weekend was by far the best gift I have given myself thus far!
-------------
Friday night Fire Walk -

As we line up in one of the 25 fire-lines, we were pumped up. I was in the 3rd lane and I was the sixth person to go in my lane. I have been preparing for this moment all night, I am more than ready to do it. As I took the first 4 steps, I did not feel a thing. Guess what? Just for a brief moment, I lost my focus, instead of saying "cool moose", a thought came into my mind, "where am I? am I actually walking through fire? how come I don't feel it," Boy, this is all it takes, I felt the heat!. I quickly get back to the state and yelling out "cool moose" again. Then, I complete the Fire Walk and start celebrate. It is not until 5 minutes later, I start to feel little discomfort. Then, I realize that during my fifth steps, as I lost my focus / state, I burned myself. Luckily, it did not burn too badly, just two small places.

I am probably one of the few that got burned, people all around me seems to be just fine. I was disappointed with myself, but I am glade I learn the lesson - a painful one. As I was getting success during the first 4 steps, I begin to reason with myself, which in tern sabotage my progress. I had a limiting belief that that is is impossible to walk on 2,000 degree F and don't feel a thing. I did not give myself enougth credit for been at a peak state and achieve outstanding result during the first 4 steps. All it took is a slight loss of focus to create a result that I did not want. But yet, I am very prude of myself, for having the courage for sign up for Tony's event and do the Fire Walk.