--

All this talk about the Firewalk, made me go back and listen to some old tapes from that time.
This is from when Robbins was about 28 years old, about 15 years ago. There is a lot of “sleazy” stuff on these tapes, stuff he doesn’t really talk about anymore. There are many examples, here are a couple.

He tells a “story” of how he convinced some woman to attend his firewalking seminar in a hairstyling shop using [b:b5474e20f1]“embedded commands” [/b:b5474e20f1]from NLP. Its pretty obvious that he thinks this is amusing, as well as showing how easily he can manipulate an “average person”, and make her feel like it was the best decision she ever made in her life. (the REAL purpose of this story is to make YOU feel like attending the Firewalk is something you MUST do, and that it is the [i:b5474e20f1]best decision you have ever made in your life[/i:b5474e20f1], and the fact it is so expensive just makes it more valuable).

Here is one that to me tell the entire story in a nutshell.
I quote Tony Robbins:

[b:b5474e20f1]”I got better than virtually anyone around me in NLP…I got on national television when I first learned these NLP techniques, and I said, look, I AM THE BEST NLP PRACTITIONER IN THE WORLD. Now I was not lying, I was doing this after only 4 days of training though. (audience laughs) I was simply giving an advanced announcement. (he laughs).[/color:b5474e20f1][/b:b5474e20f1]

There is much more than this, but this is just a small example.
This is the same man who people are arguing with eachother about whether or not to believe his “stories”?
[i:b5474e20f1]He tells you right here his definition of “lying”.[/i:b5474e20f1]

I think one of the problems with Robbins is that he used to be more blatant years ago, but now uses a smokescreen of a more conventional projection of morality. Back in the old days, he was pretty clear about parts of what he was doing, so that’s another reason us old-timers see what he is doing much more clearly.

Any man who thinks it’s a big achievement to con-vince some older lady in a hairdressing shop to attend his expensive seminar using covert techniques of unconscious manipulation, tells me all I need to know about him. Is he is proud of this accomplishment?

Do you see how these types of people are PROUD of the fact they can manipulate people who are less sophisticated, and more “simple minded” than they are?
They think its FUNNY. They are PROUD of it.

Its like car salesmen laughing about how they were able to talk some lady up in price by 4 grand, by finding out which color car she REALLY wanted, and then only making that car available at an inflated price. GREAT JOB GUYS! You know how to con less sophisticated, vulnerable people, and make more money for yourself!

They should be ASHAMED of themselves for looking for the weakest, most vulnerable folks out there, and ripping them off for their own advantage.

Why don’t they try it on guys like me? They don’t. When I meet guys like this in the world, they figure out in about 5 minutes they are not going to play me for a sucker, so they don’t even try.

They PROSPECT for vulnerable people, then use NLP, or Embedded Commands, or Sales 101 techniques, including “lying”, to get them to do what they want. BUY NOW, SIGN NOW.
They should be ashamed of themselves, but no, they feel PROUD of this, as it makes them feel Superior.
How sick is that?
Could you imagine if that is the way you looked at the world, and people?
Its sociopathic.

Coz

[b:b5474e20f1]Embedded Commands are a form of suggestion offered by one individual to another in such a way that the recipient's conscious mind is unaware of the suggestion.[/color:b5474e20f1][/b:b5474e20f1]

Someone of Robbins forum posted this link
Here's an excerpt from www.anthonyrobbinsny.com

"What You Will Master:

*How to grab your prospects attention in 60 seconds (or less).
*How to overcome complacency and procrastination and motivate yourself to take massive action.
*How to ask powerful questions to control your prospects focus and attention.
*How to get a blueprint of your client's buying strategy, hot buttons, and triggers that can influence them to buy in less than 5 minutes flat.
*A simple approach that will get high-level executives and decision-makers to take your calls immediately.
*How to quickly discover and utilize why and how your customers make decisions and use it to your advantage.
*Shorten long sales cycles dramatically by getting your customers super motivated to BUY NOW.
*Six fundamentals of preparation for any sales call that will increase your confidence and eliminate call reluctance.
*How to turn on your inner drive and eliminate limiting beliefs and fears that stop you from succeeding.
*A simple process to convert any objection into a commitment.
*How to get and work referrals to double your business, and practically eliminate your need to make cold calls!
*The specific ten step sales process ("The 10 Steps to Sales Mastery") that will put you in total control of every sales call you make.
*How to make a lot more money and have a lot more fun doing it! "


I am trying to dissect the LGAT concept as part of my recovery process.

Does this sound like another LGAT program that will simultaneously "teach" you LGAT concepts?

Perhaps the only "safe" way to learn about LGAT's is written material??

Quote
Cosmophilospher

Firstly, doing the Firewalk in the presence of the Super-Guru is something you can almost never take back. They have designed it as an event that will PERMANENTLY change who you are. That is its literal stated intent. They are going to put people into a Peak State, and then FUSE that with peoples most sacred and Peak Experiences from their lives, and then this gets interwoven and FUSED with the Guru. He enters the most sacred spaces in your psyche, perhaps for the rest of your life. He wants to change who you are, literally, by creating an event that is a turning point in your life, something you will never forget.

Also, the seminar is full of Embedded Commands, and he is directly Influencing your Unconscious mind. The Guru defines what "success" is for you (even though he might claim he is doing the opposite of this), he talks (or talked) about how he is not doing hypnosis, but is rather "de-hypnotizing" you. Its full of group call and responses, and yelling "YES!" to the commands of the Guru, followed by commands to "write this down". You can just hear people on the tapes start falling into Groupthink, and begin to "follow the leader", as each layer of these "commands" is layered in.

Its full of his "stories", which are designed to manipulate you. He is doing Eriksonian Hypnosis on you, which is almost irresistible. He is deliberately CONFUSING you. This is very powerful psychological stuff, and its being misused for sales purposes.

At this point, the SuperGuru has hundreds of different aspects of Influence all overlaid in this seminar, from doing it for so many years, so they all hit you at once, like a Mac truck.

I could go on for 100 pages here.
The more I look at this stuff, the more damaging I see it as being for people.

Of course, the Sales-pitch is that the Guru is doing all this, "for your own good". He is "changing you to be more successful", etc.
Who's "good" is being served here?
Who is being served up on a platter, and for what purpose?

From where I stand right now, I see it as nothing less than an extreme psychosocial abuse of power. I can see what's behind the design of these seminars more and more, each year I look at them.

LGAT's are bad news, due to their extreme coercive nature.

I could imagine a type of open seminar, that could give out useful psychological info, and have open discussions, but doesn't mess with your mind. But an LGAT is the opposite of that. It is a terrible learning environment, even as they claim it is a wonderful learning environment. Its a great environment for coercive indoctrination, not learning.

But, the Firewalking seminar is literally meant to mess with your mind, so that you are never the same person again, in certain ways. This is why if you look at what people write after these seminars, you will see its extreme short-term effects on people.
Watch what people write on that "other" forum after they get back from these seminars. Look for the distorted, grandiose thinking, and mania that has been created. Ask them questions, and you might see some very bizarre answers, that are out of touch with "reality".

As I have said, the more I look into this stuff, the more powerful and dangerous I see it as being.

I will never allow myself for the rest of my life to "give myself away" at an LGAT seminar. I might attend some for research purposes, but I will sit near the back, and guard my psyche from these terrible manipulations. I would also NEVER do something really "extreme" there, like Firewalking. This will IMPRINT the seminar, and the FUSE the Guru into your psyche, maybe for the rest of your life.

These LGAT's are extremely sinister and terribly powerful. They are not what they seem, and they do not do what they are advertised to do. They seem to do the opposite.


Coz

Coz, this is so well written and well put. I suspected this was what was going on but so many people scoffed. When you think about it, there are many occurances in a lifetime that could be described so. Something that young men have always had an instinctual knowledge of in the art of seduction was to take a date on some high exitement or frightening experience, like a roller-coaster ride or a scary movie. The sights and sounds and impressions and thoughts that occur at these times are likely to be stored in a very primitive or primal part of the brain. And a mild interest can be ~transformed~ into a hot and heavy one. For the same reason, those events surrounding an accident or even a close call can be "seared" into the brain permanently. And, as every ad man knows, if you can arouse someone emotionally, they will likely remember your product the next time they go shopping. Too bad the scammers all know these tricks but so few non-predatory people do. (Unless they've been on the receiving end of this ~technology~ ;) )

Do you remember or had you seen the expose on 20/20 (I believe) a few years ago? John Stossel did a "Give Me a Break"/debunking on fire-walking. Tony Robbins had to confess it was just a trick. Nothing magic or extraordinary about it.

I had thought that there was some way the "programmers" were able to capture the imaginations of the audience at high arousal states and "fuse" ideas about the program being beneficial or a necessity for any future quality of life. Particularly dangerous to those with tendencies toward manic-depression, but would work on just about anybody as most of us "cycle." And, by the same mechanism, they could capture the imagination at low points and associate those low points with critical or skeptical thoughts of leaving the group. No big secret to all the other gurus. Just suggest that those thoughts or emotions are Satan speaking. But, though most people know, or at least vaguely aware, that this is how cults work, how is it that most people don't know this is how LGATs work? Or don't believe it when they are told?


Amazing,


Ellen

That is bait for "salespeople".
Every salesperson wants to be able to do those things.
So its bait to get salespeople to put their money down.

They're conning the conners. They are out-sharking the sharks.
If you want to see a shark feeding frenzy, go to one of those types of seminars!

Here's the problem.
Robbins own Franchisees had terrible problems selling this same type of seminar. So if the "experts" can't sell their own seminar on sales, what does that say?

Here is a thread about this issue.
[www.tonyrobbins.com]

Its very difficult to find a place to learn this stuff without getting conned yourself.

Coz

Quote
Aurora

"What You Will Master:

*How to grab your prospects attention in 60 seconds (or less).
*How to overcome complacency and procrastination and motivate yourself to take massive action.
*How to ask powerful questions to control your prospects focus and attention.
*How to get a blueprint of your client's buying strategy, hot buttons, and triggers that can influence them to buy in less than 5 minutes flat.
*A simple approach that will get high-level executives and decision-makers to take your calls immediately.
*How to quickly discover and utilize why and how your customers make decisions and use it to your advantage.
*Shorten long sales cycles dramatically by getting your customers super motivated to BUY NOW.
*Six fundamentals of preparation for any sales call that will increase your confidence and eliminate call reluctance.
*How to turn on your inner drive and eliminate limiting beliefs and fears that stop you from succeeding.
*A simple process to convert any objection into a commitment.
*How to get and work referrals to double your business, and practically eliminate your need to make cold calls!
*The specific ten step sales process ("The 10 Steps to Sales Mastery") that will put you in total control of every sales call you make.
*How to make a lot more money and have a lot more fun doing it! "

Miracles, Breakthroughs, personal transformation...

It seems to me they are all selling the same thing.

An escape from a painful reality, and Magical Thinking.

I think they are just exploiting a primal fallibility of being a human.
Look at "lotteries". They sell the same thing.
Watch the TV ads for them. "One scratch could change your life!".
Its a Miracle! Just buy a ticket, and all of your problems will be solved.

Existence in the modern world is a very tough thing at times, so in my view they are exploiting this human desire of ours, and telling us they can sell us a little piece of "Heaven" right here now.

Miracle = Instant Change.

Its pretty hard to sell personality modification as a slow, unsexy, persistent method of modifying your behaviors and underlying patterns, over a long period of time. Not very sexy.
Better to say, "change your whole miserable stinking life in one miraculous weekend!".

We all seem to fantasize about an "easy way out", and they just exploit it.

Exploiting human weakness for profit.

Coz

Quote
elena

Quote
Hope
Ah yes, Elena, the miracles. I received my post card in the mail from Landmark, inviting me (for $40) to "Causing the Miraculous" A Breakthrough Event. This is an all-new 3-hour graduate event.

"In this event, you will create"
* A direct path to causing an environment where the miraculous can occur
* The miraculous - as distinct from serendipity, chance or luck
* The miraculous as a real and authentic possibility for yourself and your life.

All this from a 3-hour seminar. They want us lapsed graduates back!!

Just wanted to say a quick thanks for all of the information posted here in this thread... I'd signed up for UPW a few weeks ago (it's being held this weekend) and then did a bunch of research. The coaching thread on the TR forum caught my eye and I found this thread, boy, there was sure a lot to learn...

I've had TR's materials for years, but had never even thought or really heard of the lgat stuff - once I opened my eyes I saw a lot that I didn't like. I find it a shame, as I like the material - but man, the way they go about business stinks. Biggest eye opener - the truth about firewalking. And the implications of that.

It's not the only reason, but, here I am, at home. Sold my ticket. And I have that 'near miss' feeling when something 'bad' almost happens. Phew.

Again, thanks.

Kim

P.S. I did attend The Forum years ago - and was shocked to realize how little I remember from it. I got one concrete insight from it, and restored my relationship with my Mom. She died unexpectedly the next year so I will always be grateful I attended. That said - I sure wish I remembered more of what they did!

Call up the Oz 60 minutes to do an investigation!
They seem to be more aggressive than the American one.

Also, send a letter explaining LGAT's, with links and references to the major newspapers, and maybe they will send some investigative journalist down who will be skeptical enough to question the BS in their claims.

If they aren't breaking any laws, all you can do is educate the public, I think.
But these hucksters have been going since the mesmerizers, and even before that.
I believe education and awareness is the key.

Coz

Quote
Concerned Oz

What can we do to prevent this?

Oz

Hey Kim, that's great that you trusted your own inner thoughts and feelings and decided not to go. Good for you.

In my view, there is no way people should be going to these LGAT's until they know what they are all about.
This way, they can be aware of all of the tricks, and the Trance and Ericksonian Hypnosis, Embedded Commands, NLP, the way the room is set up, the Social Influence stuff, the food and sleep deprivation, the conditioning of your peaks states and values to the Guru, the sleaze-ball commissioned salespeople, and the dozens and dozens of other techniques and aspects of the LGAT.

This way, IF a person ever "chooses" to go to one of these seminars someday, (the seminars have been running for decades, "Scarcity" is a sales tactic), then they will know what is going on. They will leave their credit cards at home, and they will NOT SIGN any contracts there. They might sit near the back, and not get too overexcited. They will not "give in" to the Guru, even thought the Guru tells you that giving into him is what you have to do to get miraculous change now.

They might even make notes of what is going on in their own notebook, so when they leave before the end and get their money back[/color:72b423641f] and have to turn in their booklet, they can take their own notes home with them.

I wouldn't worry too much about missing out on the "content" either. Much of that content "overly-complex fluff" designed to put the victims into "programmed confusion", and overload their conscious mind, so they are ripe for unconscious influence.

LGAT's are not about "superlearning". They are about "super-indoctrination".

If you had gone to the LGAT seminar in question, you would have been bombarded with literally HUNDREDS of very sophisticated sales/influence techniques.
You might have bought some more product.

You may have been convinced to sign one of those [i:72b423641f]sneaky contracts[/i:72b423641f] for one of the big seminar packages, and then may have not been able to get out of it without a big penalty, or could be on the hook for about $10,000.00.

[i:72b423641f](how would it make you feel to know you had signed a contract and now legally owed a SuperGuru about 10 grand right now?)[/i:72b423641f]

If you had done the Firewalk seminar, you may have imprinted Tony Robbins DEEP into your psyche for the rest of your life, or at least 10 years.

[i:72b423641f]How would it feel to have Tony in your brain, and not be able to get him out, even though you wanted to?[/i:72b423641f]

Try an experiment. When folks get back from this seminar, you can ask them questions. You will see how "pumped up" they are, how they feel they can do anything. (for now).
Ask about what they bought there, if they signed up for other seminars. Look at their beliefs, and what they think about Tony now. (they will love him and think he is a genius).
You can observe the effects on other people. They will almost all be "manic" for quite a while.
But it wears off. The high falls away.
That's why some people keep going back, over and over.
They want that manic high, its like some type of drug high, and they need their fix.

There is so much to learn about these things.

Learning about self-improvement is wonderful.
But these LGATS are only about that in a very minor way.
Their real purpose is being discussed in this thread, and on these types of analytical websites.

LGAT's are a very bad way to learn things, except how to be "brainwashed" and indoctrinated unconsciously.

This "first seminar" is about bringing you "into the loop".
And what a loop it is.
It can consume your entire life. It can costs you thousands of dollars. It can get you "hooked" into the sales cycle...
$1,000 ->$3,000 -> $5,000 -> $10,000 -> $30,000 -> $65,000 -> -> $100,000+ -> whatever you might have.

Before ever attending a Mass LGAT Seminar of this nature, one needs to educate themselves, and find out what they are trying to do to you.

But even then, many times its not enough...

[i:72b423641f]They can still "get you", even if you don't want them to...and they know this only too well...[/i:72b423641f][/color:72b423641f]

Coz

Quote
KimD
Just wanted to say a quick thanks for all of the information posted here in this thread... I'd signed up for UPW a few weeks ago (it's being held this weekend) and then did a bunch of research. The coaching thread on the TR forum caught my eye and I found this thread, boy, there was sure a lot to learn...

I've had TR's materials for years, but had never even thought or really heard of the lgat stuff - once I opened my eyes I saw a lot that I didn't like. I find it a shame, as I like the material - but man, the way they go about business stinks. Biggest eye opener - the truth about firewalking. And the implications of that.

It's not the only reason, but, here I am, at home. Sold my ticket. And I have that 'near miss' feeling when something 'bad' almost happens. Phew.

You can even go this website, and look at the seating plans for this seminar.[/color:47c8aaa365]
---------------------
[www.tonyrobbins.com]
General Level - $795
Executive Level - $1095
VIP Level - $1395
Diamond Level - $1995

Your optimal program consists of the live event with Tony Robbins - plus powerful One-on-One coaching. Diamond, VIP, and Executive level tuition includes one complimentary Breakthrough to Results Coaching Session. Additional Coaching is available for $295/mo.
-------------
There is more info at the website, if you press PRICING.
Can you see how this is all based around psychological manipulation? Are you an Executive, a VIP, a lowly General Loser, or a Superior Diamond Human?
Notice how the audience is "pre-qualifying" themselves in an economic social strata?
Guess where all the Sales-Sharks are going to be swimming?

And this is only STEP ONE folks.
This is just the "hook" to lodge into the prospects mouth, so they can be reeled in.

Notice how the folks with the most money are put RIGHT UP AT THE FRONT, so they can be the most "influenced". (just like I said).
Notice how you are going to be crammed in like sardines with a massive crowd of people, so you will get put into a form of mass hypnotic hysteria?

Its truly mind-boggling what is happening to thousands of people this very weekend at this seminar. Literally "mind-blowing".

Too bad a Philosopher couldn't be there, sitting in the back row, making his notes, and reporting to you what is going on...before he gets his refund if he thinks the seminar is not worth the money.
Maybe next time a Philosopher will be there in the back row...
:wink:

Coz[/color:47c8aaa365]