Quote

non-cult-freighted words and phrases like "tricked," "scammed," "fooled," "misled," "psychologically manipulated," or "taken advantage of?"

All these descriptors could be considered "cult-freighted" words IMO-- I do not have a cult dictionary/thesaurus. My intention is to try and be helpful while at the same time hopefully gaining some insights from others' "negative experiences" and recovery methods. I am uncertain how one may interpret that I may have a "blaming the victim mentality" simply by using the word victimized. But of course anything is open to interpretation when someone applies his/her own experiences to a statement.

Standard M-W dictionary defines "victimized" as to be subject to deception or fraud - and that is the intent of my meaning- nothing beyond that.

I am trying to illicit some insights from BTO as it appears he/she is very self-aware and cautious re: LGATs/NLP and wonder if it is based on theoretical study, subjective experience, or both.

Given this thread is an Anthony Robbins topic- I do not want to assume this is BTO's experience but it is mine (which has been mentioned in my other posts).

Personally, I am still grappling with brainwashing/cognitive addiction issues from my experience and look to this forum for support and guidance. [/i]

I am not seeking help here. I will make another attempt or two to clarify. Emphatically--my posts are NOT about my personal trauma.

My personal experience with TR is limited to the PP II tapes, from which I got some good ideas. I did want to attend a seminar, but never was strongly tempted by the sales pitches. I do see how people could get "anchored" to TR as their "savior" and get sucked into following the TR way of life. The Qlink, green products, diet recommendations, these products are anchored to the TR philosophy when they have absolutely nada relationship.

Coz said in his last post " These LGATS are set up to prospect, locate, sort, and then take advantage of VULNERABLE people. They are the ones who are suggestible, and can get caught up, and worked into a frenzy, and lose themselves, and even wreck their lives."

My comments are addressed to this statement. I am not seeking bipolar support here, but responding to Coz' statements about this factor playing a part in LGAT leaders' personalities, to which I thought I was adding a personal affirmation to his observations.

Sylvia incorrectly assumed that I did reject ever being diagnosed, I can understand how that was misinterpreted. "Who wants to stop feeling as if they're on top of the world?" was rhetorical, not biographical. I will qualify these type of statements in the future, they are easily misunderstood.

"As I'm not attracted to LGATs. . ." was my response to Sylvia's comment, "So, anyway, check the nutrition thread under the recovery section. It’s only a start." Again, she made a very far-reaching assumption that my post somehow indicated I was requesting help or had no knowledge of how to take care of myself.

I thank you for your support Sylvia, but this is not where I'm coming from at all. I understand and appreciate that your need to help people comes from the best of intentions, but if someone isn't specifically asking for help on a public forum, it is a bit pushy to offer or to assume that they do need it.

I do know people who were/are involved with either LGATs or relgious groups, some who did suffer or are suffering and came here to learn more information and pass it on. I've learned through this thread and others how many more people are being traumatized by these events. My former opinion was that you should just take what you want from them, and discard the rest. Through a relationship experience, I am beginning to understand the broader implications of mind control by a charismatic leader, and how people think they are solely in control of their minds and don't know how to protect themselves.

Aurora, I haven't been victimized by a cult, just am sharply aware of how manipulation occurs and want to share my thoughts on it.

Elena, thanks for the linguistic "reality check." Sometimes we get used to certain words and phrases just because they are familiar, and we forget we're actually pointing a "loaded gun" at someone's mind.

We usually don't use strong curse words in conversations with or in the presence of strangers. Cursing, especially the F and MF word, are generally only said with people we know very well. He probably uses this as a technique to instantly break down intimacy boundaries between him and an audience of thousands of strangers and forms a pseudo "one-on-one" buddy relationship this way.

F and MF are also "anger" and "sex" words. These very strong emotions can get triggered in people who are normally more conservative. Once you've aroused people to this state, it's a heck of a lot easier to bypass their logical filters.

This extract is from the KUBARK COUNTERINTELLIGENCE INTERROGATION manual, July 1963. Kubark is a code word for the CIA. This information was declassified in 1997.

This is from Chapter IX, The Coercive Counterintelligence Interrogation of Resistant Sources. Section I. Heightened Suggestibility and Hypnosis. Note: these are considered COERCIVE interrogation techniques. Thought the info was pertinent to this thread.

"Operational personnel, including interrogators, who chance to have some lay experience or skill in hypnotism should not themselves use hypnotic techniques for interrogation or other operational purposes. There are two reasons for this position. [b:d2ed6f7aee]The first is that hypnotism used as an operational tool by a practitioner who is not a psychologist, psychiatrist, or M.D. can produce irreversible psychological damage.[/b:d2ed6f7aee] The lay practitioner does not know enough to use the technique safely."

The bold emphasis is mine. Wow, even the CIA knows that only EXTREMELY qualified people should be inducing hypnosis.

As mass hypnosis techniques are applied at LGATs, is there any wonder about psychotic reactions afterwards?

There's plenty of info to digest and ponder from several persepctives, here are 2 links:
[www.parascope.com]

Download pdfs here:
[www.parascope.com]

Thanks, TBO.

I remember seeing this when it was released and it seemed as though half the content was blacked-out. A real eye-opener, though.

Some LGAT old-timers have suggested that one of the reasons LGATs and other cults are permitted to do what they do is that they serve as open-air laboratories in the field of mind manipulation (Kontrol) and organisations like the CIA can harvest the research without getting thier own hands dirty.

Lots of the Parascope links are broken. Wonder if it means anything.


Ellen

Thanks for the links TBO---coincidentially I have been researching a bit on hypnosis and trance but haven't found many scientific references.

Although there are certifications to become a hypnotherapist- I find within my profession many counselors take hypnosis and trance induction techniques very casually when in fact the effects could be profoundly disasterous especially if the side effect/reaction does not occur in the 50 minute counselling session.

Its not even a matter of intent for some as I know genuinely compassionate, benelovent counselors and I suspect they are in essence not qualified to hypnotize or induce trance but they do so anyway trying to get a quick fix or a band aid solution to a client's presenting issue. They apparently have no idea what they are toying with. Although I have not practiced hypnosis on my clients (given they are primarily geriatric dementia patients) I too had a rather casual approach about it until recently.

Somehow I doubt the LGAT producers are simply taking a casual approach to hypnosis and trance induction. They most probably know all too well what they are doing and what effects it may have on participants. They have most probably studied the science of it thoroughly. Some may be well qualified operationally to perform such techniques but lack professional ethics.

Wow, Elena- to think that "Big Brother" may be harvesting the data from these LGATs is frightening indeed but likely nevertheless.

Oops! Posted the wrong link for the .pdfs, can't find it, cleared my history. Yes, a lot of links are missing, I wondered about that also.

But here are links that do work to quite a few of the articles (save for a rainy, paranoid day! :lol: )
[www.parascope.com]
[www.parascope.com]

elena, I wouldn't be a bit surprised about the open-air lab idea. And wouldn't be surprised either if the CIA feeds techniques to these leaders to try out on the unsuspecting audience. They experimented with mind-altering chemicals on human guinea pigs and hey, isn't this a heck of a lot cheaper?

Ah, what's your average, decent human being to do?

Hey T.B.O.,

I’m sorry I misinterpreted what you wrote. It must have been that first sentence, ‘’From my own experience . . . ‘’ that you wrote. Maybe something more clear like, ‘’From the experience of people I know . . . ‘’ would have saved some confusion there. I’m sorry that you thought I was being pushy about the nutrition post. It wasn’t written specifically for you. I started working on it a few weeks ago, and I have more to add later. Some people here have mentioned that after LGATs, etc. they experience less ability to concentrate, etc. and I wrote it in case they didn’t already know about the connection of vitamin and mineral deficiencies to impaired brain functions - no matter how they got them. Occasional difficulty concentrating doesn’t mean someone is not intelligent. I am not assuming that all of the people here already know everything or don’t know everything. I know that I don’t know everything. I assumed that you might find it interesting - whether you personally need it or not. I hope someone finds it useful. If not, that’s okay too.

I’m glad you already know about sleeping well, exercise, etc. Thanks for reminding me about flashing lights. I attended a seminar that included flashing lights and bought a ‘’mind machine’’ in the early 1990’s. The company warned people not to use it if they had epilepsy because it could trigger a seizure. I didn’t know I had a type of epilepsy at the time. Now I have trouble with flashing police, ambulance and fire truck lights, not to mention fast changing frames on TV ads. I rarely see movies in theaters. There’s just too much movement on too big a screen for me.

And of course I absolutely agree that some people will not accept a diagnosis of bi-polar disorder. I’ve had many ‘diagnoses’, from ‘shamanic break’ to ‘spontaneous Kundalini awakening’. If I would have stayed in the shamanic break box I would still be doing ‘soul retrieval’ work, and if I stayed only with the Kundalini idea I would probably be at an ashram somewhere being told to meditate more. Even though my experiences fit both of those belief systems I don’t think I would have gotten very far in stopping my ‘episodes’. Why? Because (and this is just my belief) I believe that the authorities and teachers of those belief systems are manic-depressive themselves and there is a lot of information here on this site and elsewhere about the casualties of their treatment methods. They only can teach what THEY know and what THEY accept. I’m not going to be one of their guinea pigs.

I could also be diagnosed with a form of epilepsy. If western doctors knew a lot about nutrition, and most of them don’t, I would be diagnosed with hypoglycemia and malabsorption of vitamins and minerals. The mental aspects of my condition would just be considered a symptom instead of a personality or mood disorder. They would be doing more research on how to increase absorption and calculating exactly how much vitamin B6 I need to produce enough GABA to stop my little seizures. In the meantime I’m going to continue taking my supplements and doing my own research and telling my prescribing nurse at the county mental health department what I’m doing and how it’s going. So far, so good.

Sylvia

Aurora--Your professional experience with the casual attitudes towards hypnosis and the need for band-aid fixes speaks tons. Maybe that's one of the major problems, that so many seek to fill a void, QUICKLY, and practitioners, either benignly or deliberately, utilize a technique that could produce the after-effects of a bad acid trip. But as you say, hypnosis is so thoroughly accepted, to counter its darker side seems impossible.

elena, I went through a few of the articles, this site's agenda is anti-government, no matter what a situation really is. I found the Koresh interviews a bit disturbing, and nothing insightful on this group's agenda and how this disaster came about.

I suppose there's those out there who feel that if Jim Jone's followers were ok commiting suicide, who is anyone to intervene? Free will, ya know.