Werner Erhard, "he beats his wife..his children, and rapes a daughter"
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 20, 2008 05:55AM
[Moderator Note: CBS News requested that this post be taken down due to copyright infringement]
See [www.culteducation.com]
Here is a News Summary quoting the piece, but within "fair use" standards.
"60 Minutes" broadcast about Werner Erhard
A News Summary/August 26, 2009
By Rick Ross
Background
Beginning in the 1970s a company named "est" (Erhard Seminar Training) sold courses, which are now often called "large group awareness training" and/or "mass marathon training" for "self-improvement." This included an introductory course known as "The Forum."
Jack Rosenberg, a former used-car salesman, created Est with no formal education past high school.
In the 1960s Rosenberg left his wife and four children in Philadelphia, changed his name to "Werner Hans Erhard," moved to California and started another family.
Erhard was reportedly "the role model, the living example of what the est Training could do."
But CBS News reported allegations of incest, rape and spousal abuse made against Werner Erhard by his daughters and former employees.
Not long after the airing of this program Erhard sold his company reportedly to his employees and went into prolonged seclusion.
The for profit privately owned company, which still sells the Forum and other training courses, is now known as "Landmark Education" and headed by Werner Erhard's brother and sister.
What follows is a news summary that includes statements made by Erhard family members and insiders, which was broadcast by CBS "60 Minutes" March 3, 1991.
"I am god"
Dr. Bob Larzelere was the head of Erhard's counseling staff for seven years during the 1970s.
"I am god...he did say sometimes in staff meetings," Larzelere told CBS News.
Wendy Drucker was a top manager who worked closely with Erhard for nine years.
Drucker told CBS, "I would never have believed that I, could be a person who would wind up in a cult...And yet, certainly mind control was involved. And if that's what cults do, and they set up a leader to be bigger than anybody else, a god-like figure, I would say yes, that was true in the organization."
"We were told to surrender to him as 'source.' I think that's idolatry...This was not like, being an employee. This was like being, a servant, or a devotee," Drucker said.
Ms. Drucker confirmed Larzelere's statement and said that Erhard told "...the whole staff. At staff meetings...'I am the source...I am god."
"Terrifying man"
An est brochure once featured a loving portrait of Erhard with his second wife, Ellen. The implication was that if Erhard could turn his life around, the Forum could turn your life around too.
In an interview with Larry King on CNN Erhard explained, "[Est is] a program of inquiry into the things that concern people on a very everyday basis. Like - breaking through the ordinary barriers that just go along with children and your relationship with your children at certain ages."
But did that program work for Werner Erhard?
Celeste Erhard, the est founder's eldest daughter from his second marriage didn't seem to think it did.
"I have been afraid, deeply afraid of my father my whole life. My whole life....he's a terrifying man, he can be very terrifying," she told CBS News anchor Ben Bradley.
Dawn Damas was the family's governess and is still a close friend. She told CBS News that she witnessed Erhard assault his son St. John, or "Sinjin" when the boy was twelve.
"He...went over to Sinjin and started to slap him and hit him, and picked him up and threw him on the ground and started to kick him - in front of everybody and nobody moved, everyone was paralyzed. Um, and then said to St. John: 'If you ever get grades like this again, I'll break both of your legs with a baseball bat.'"
Werner Erhard declined to talk to "60 Minutes," but he did speak to reporter John Hubner of the San Jose Mercury News, for an article in WEST, the paper's Sunday magazine. In an audiotaped interview, Erhard denied that he ever hit his son Sinjin.
"Never, ever, ever...Never, ever struck one of my children, not any one of them, ever," he said.
But Adair Erhard directly contradicted her father.
"My dad...freaked out, he pushed him back on the chair, he fell over. At this point you know my brother was so petrified he actually peed in his pants. Um, you know he's down on the floor, he's kicking him, he's hitting him."
CBS anchor Ben Bradley reported, "Sinjin, who is now twenty-three, didn't want to speak on camera, but he told us the beating did take place..."
Ellen Erhard "strangled"
Erhard's daughters also recounted how he and/or his est associates abused their mother.
"At one point someone picked up a statue and hit her over the head. Um, you know my dad constantly saying: "What aren't you saying, what aren't you saying?...he himself also got up and, while she was on the floor, and kicked her a number of times," Adair Erhard told CBS.
Erhard's daughters claimed that the assault on their mother Ellen Erhard continued for two nights.
Celeste Erhard said, "At one point, on the second night, I did stand up and say: 'Please, you're killing her, you're killing her.' I mean, my mother was blue, her face was blue, she had, like drool coming out of the side of her mouth. She was dying. She was, you know, suffocating. And all he said to me was: 'Sit down, or you'll get more of the same.' And that is a direct quote, I remember every word. And that's all he said. And I sat down."
Adair Erhard agreed with her sister's account, "She was strangled literally. She turned blue, there was spit running out of the side of her mouth..."
A consultant that worked for Erhard did the actual choking, according to Adair Erhard.
And Dr. Bob Larzelere admitted to CBS that he was that consultant.
Larzelere said,, "'Somebody's got to volunteer, to hurt Ellen, to punish her, and make her talk, and make her confess.' And nobody did, until I thought, oh my god, this is an opportunity for me, finally, to get Werner's total approval. Now I can be a real soldier for him, now I can make him, proud of me, now I can get him to smile at me. Now I won't have to be afraid of him anymore. So I volunteered."
He did it "to scare her into confessing" about alleged infidelities.
Lazelere said that Erhard "didn't try to stop [him]...at all."
Lazelere lamented, "It was a despicable thing to do. And it took me days to realize it. Afterward. When I began to let myself feel again. It was, my god, it was like a nightmare. That I could have, gone that far, with wanting to please, wanting to get approval from, wanting to get love from another human being, to do that."
Erhard's daughters also told CBS that their father wouldn't allow their mother to live with them for two years. Adair Erhard said that periodically Ellen Erhard was allowed to come into the house, but "like a maid" to "scrub the floors." And the daughters "had to watch this," but "weren't allowed to speak with her."
Adair Erhard explained, "You know, he, whatever he said, that she should do, she had to do. And that was part of the instructions. Yeah, you have to be a maid for your house...I wanted to - say something so bad, or just do something about it, and there's, it's just so petrified all the time and there's just no way I could be okay with myself to, to tell anybody or to do anything about what was going on."
In an audiotaped interview Erhard dismissed these accounts about his marital relationship.
"Essentially nonsense. Ellen was never a maid. Ellen was my wife, and I always treated her like my wife," he said.
Ellen Erhard divorced her husband and reportedly as part of the divorce settlement she cannot talk publicly about their marriage.
Adair Erhard told CBS that her mother was grateful though that she chose to speak out about her father's behavior and wished she could do the same.
"Rape"
Deborah Rosenberg is one of Erhard's daughters, from his first marriage. Ms. Rosenberg told CBS that her father "molested" her when she was sixteen. She also claimed that Erhard had abused her siblings with "pornography all the way to rape."
She told Ben Bradley, "I wasn't there. But I believe my sister when she says that my father raped her...forcibly had sexual intercourse with her."
Erhard said that the rape never happened in an audiotaped interview.
But Deborah Rosenberg told CBS that when she confronted her father about this claim he admitted, "There had been sexual intercourse, and that it had been a nurturing experience for my sister. He said that 'I did not rape her.'"
When Deborah Rosenberg repeated what her father said to her sister she said that her response to his explanation was that "it was not a nurturing experience for her. And she's had to have a lot of therapy about that" and it was not consensual.
Governess Dawn Damas told "60 Minutes" that Erhard's daughters told CBS "true things about their father that are terrible...he beats his wife, and he beats his children, and rapes a daughter - and then he goes and tells people how to have marvelous relationships. I'm sorry, that's what I have against Werner Erhard."
Celeste Erhard commented about her relationship with her father as an adult.
"I kept thinking - that he would be a father, I kept thinking that when he got older, he'd want children, and he'd want his daughters. I just, I, I really thought that. You know that maybe he'd get wiser with age and he'd regret what he'd done, but um, he didn't," she said.
Erhard's response
Erhard's lawyers sent CBS affidavits from his sister and brother and from a few of his close associates disputing some of the stories from his children and denying that Erhard ever abused his wife.
Erhard stated, "There is only one appropriate response to these allegations, to heal and restore my family. And that is what I will do. To respond to the accusations at this time, would only further publicly exploit my family, and there has already been enough of that."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 07:13AM by rrmoderator.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Here is a News Summary quoting the piece, but within "fair use" standards.
"60 Minutes" broadcast about Werner Erhard
A News Summary/August 26, 2009
By Rick Ross
Background
Beginning in the 1970s a company named "est" (Erhard Seminar Training) sold courses, which are now often called "large group awareness training" and/or "mass marathon training" for "self-improvement." This included an introductory course known as "The Forum."
Jack Rosenberg, a former used-car salesman, created Est with no formal education past high school.
In the 1960s Rosenberg left his wife and four children in Philadelphia, changed his name to "Werner Hans Erhard," moved to California and started another family.
Erhard was reportedly "the role model, the living example of what the est Training could do."
But CBS News reported allegations of incest, rape and spousal abuse made against Werner Erhard by his daughters and former employees.
Not long after the airing of this program Erhard sold his company reportedly to his employees and went into prolonged seclusion.
The for profit privately owned company, which still sells the Forum and other training courses, is now known as "Landmark Education" and headed by Werner Erhard's brother and sister.
What follows is a news summary that includes statements made by Erhard family members and insiders, which was broadcast by CBS "60 Minutes" March 3, 1991.
"I am god"
Dr. Bob Larzelere was the head of Erhard's counseling staff for seven years during the 1970s.
"I am god...he did say sometimes in staff meetings," Larzelere told CBS News.
Wendy Drucker was a top manager who worked closely with Erhard for nine years.
Drucker told CBS, "I would never have believed that I, could be a person who would wind up in a cult...And yet, certainly mind control was involved. And if that's what cults do, and they set up a leader to be bigger than anybody else, a god-like figure, I would say yes, that was true in the organization."
"We were told to surrender to him as 'source.' I think that's idolatry...This was not like, being an employee. This was like being, a servant, or a devotee," Drucker said.
Ms. Drucker confirmed Larzelere's statement and said that Erhard told "...the whole staff. At staff meetings...'I am the source...I am god."
"Terrifying man"
An est brochure once featured a loving portrait of Erhard with his second wife, Ellen. The implication was that if Erhard could turn his life around, the Forum could turn your life around too.
In an interview with Larry King on CNN Erhard explained, "[Est is] a program of inquiry into the things that concern people on a very everyday basis. Like - breaking through the ordinary barriers that just go along with children and your relationship with your children at certain ages."
But did that program work for Werner Erhard?
Celeste Erhard, the est founder's eldest daughter from his second marriage didn't seem to think it did.
"I have been afraid, deeply afraid of my father my whole life. My whole life....he's a terrifying man, he can be very terrifying," she told CBS News anchor Ben Bradley.
Dawn Damas was the family's governess and is still a close friend. She told CBS News that she witnessed Erhard assault his son St. John, or "Sinjin" when the boy was twelve.
"He...went over to Sinjin and started to slap him and hit him, and picked him up and threw him on the ground and started to kick him - in front of everybody and nobody moved, everyone was paralyzed. Um, and then said to St. John: 'If you ever get grades like this again, I'll break both of your legs with a baseball bat.'"
Werner Erhard declined to talk to "60 Minutes," but he did speak to reporter John Hubner of the San Jose Mercury News, for an article in WEST, the paper's Sunday magazine. In an audiotaped interview, Erhard denied that he ever hit his son Sinjin.
"Never, ever, ever...Never, ever struck one of my children, not any one of them, ever," he said.
But Adair Erhard directly contradicted her father.
"My dad...freaked out, he pushed him back on the chair, he fell over. At this point you know my brother was so petrified he actually peed in his pants. Um, you know he's down on the floor, he's kicking him, he's hitting him."
CBS anchor Ben Bradley reported, "Sinjin, who is now twenty-three, didn't want to speak on camera, but he told us the beating did take place..."
Ellen Erhard "strangled"
Erhard's daughters also recounted how he and/or his est associates abused their mother.
"At one point someone picked up a statue and hit her over the head. Um, you know my dad constantly saying: "What aren't you saying, what aren't you saying?...he himself also got up and, while she was on the floor, and kicked her a number of times," Adair Erhard told CBS.
Erhard's daughters claimed that the assault on their mother Ellen Erhard continued for two nights.
Celeste Erhard said, "At one point, on the second night, I did stand up and say: 'Please, you're killing her, you're killing her.' I mean, my mother was blue, her face was blue, she had, like drool coming out of the side of her mouth. She was dying. She was, you know, suffocating. And all he said to me was: 'Sit down, or you'll get more of the same.' And that is a direct quote, I remember every word. And that's all he said. And I sat down."
Adair Erhard agreed with her sister's account, "She was strangled literally. She turned blue, there was spit running out of the side of her mouth..."
A consultant that worked for Erhard did the actual choking, according to Adair Erhard.
And Dr. Bob Larzelere admitted to CBS that he was that consultant.
Larzelere said,, "'Somebody's got to volunteer, to hurt Ellen, to punish her, and make her talk, and make her confess.' And nobody did, until I thought, oh my god, this is an opportunity for me, finally, to get Werner's total approval. Now I can be a real soldier for him, now I can make him, proud of me, now I can get him to smile at me. Now I won't have to be afraid of him anymore. So I volunteered."
He did it "to scare her into confessing" about alleged infidelities.
Lazelere said that Erhard "didn't try to stop [him]...at all."
Lazelere lamented, "It was a despicable thing to do. And it took me days to realize it. Afterward. When I began to let myself feel again. It was, my god, it was like a nightmare. That I could have, gone that far, with wanting to please, wanting to get approval from, wanting to get love from another human being, to do that."
Erhard's daughters also told CBS that their father wouldn't allow their mother to live with them for two years. Adair Erhard said that periodically Ellen Erhard was allowed to come into the house, but "like a maid" to "scrub the floors." And the daughters "had to watch this," but "weren't allowed to speak with her."
Adair Erhard explained, "You know, he, whatever he said, that she should do, she had to do. And that was part of the instructions. Yeah, you have to be a maid for your house...I wanted to - say something so bad, or just do something about it, and there's, it's just so petrified all the time and there's just no way I could be okay with myself to, to tell anybody or to do anything about what was going on."
In an audiotaped interview Erhard dismissed these accounts about his marital relationship.
"Essentially nonsense. Ellen was never a maid. Ellen was my wife, and I always treated her like my wife," he said.
Ellen Erhard divorced her husband and reportedly as part of the divorce settlement she cannot talk publicly about their marriage.
Adair Erhard told CBS that her mother was grateful though that she chose to speak out about her father's behavior and wished she could do the same.
"Rape"
Deborah Rosenberg is one of Erhard's daughters, from his first marriage. Ms. Rosenberg told CBS that her father "molested" her when she was sixteen. She also claimed that Erhard had abused her siblings with "pornography all the way to rape."
She told Ben Bradley, "I wasn't there. But I believe my sister when she says that my father raped her...forcibly had sexual intercourse with her."
Erhard said that the rape never happened in an audiotaped interview.
But Deborah Rosenberg told CBS that when she confronted her father about this claim he admitted, "There had been sexual intercourse, and that it had been a nurturing experience for my sister. He said that 'I did not rape her.'"
When Deborah Rosenberg repeated what her father said to her sister she said that her response to his explanation was that "it was not a nurturing experience for her. And she's had to have a lot of therapy about that" and it was not consensual.
Governess Dawn Damas told "60 Minutes" that Erhard's daughters told CBS "true things about their father that are terrible...he beats his wife, and he beats his children, and rapes a daughter - and then he goes and tells people how to have marvelous relationships. I'm sorry, that's what I have against Werner Erhard."
Celeste Erhard commented about her relationship with her father as an adult.
"I kept thinking - that he would be a father, I kept thinking that when he got older, he'd want children, and he'd want his daughters. I just, I, I really thought that. You know that maybe he'd get wiser with age and he'd regret what he'd done, but um, he didn't," she said.
Erhard's response
Erhard's lawyers sent CBS affidavits from his sister and brother and from a few of his close associates disputing some of the stories from his children and denying that Erhard ever abused his wife.
Erhard stated, "There is only one appropriate response to these allegations, to heal and restore my family. And that is what I will do. To respond to the accusations at this time, would only further publicly exploit my family, and there has already been enough of that."
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 01/23/2010 07:13AM by rrmoderator.
Re: Werner Erhard, "he beats his wife..his children, and rapes a daughter"
Posted by:
AntiCultist
()
Date: June 20, 2008 01:18PM
The Anticult - I too dislike cults, but what you posted here is downright offensive, false (unless you post the recant) and has been cleared up to have been a false allegation, by his own daughter's statements. I am neither for nor against Werner or EST - but I think you just crossed the line of ethical behavior on this board, and I am hoping Rick Ross doesn't allow libel on here to perpetuate. If you are going to post this, then post the fact that his own daughter recanted those same charges, so we can have the whole truth, and nothing but.
This way, you are just making RR.com look bad for everyone who stumbles upon it and are turning it into a hate-mongering place.
I like facts - but I like them complete and whole, not one sided/biased.
AntiCultist
This way, you are just making RR.com look bad for everyone who stumbles upon it and are turning it into a hate-mongering place.
I like facts - but I like them complete and whole, not one sided/biased.
AntiCultist
Quote
The Anticult
don't know if everyone has read the transcript from the 60 Minutes news broadcast on Werner Erhard.
___________________________________
60 Minutes, broadcast on Werner Erhard
CBS/March 3, 1991
[www.culteducation.com]
...
And he beats his wife, and he beats his children, and rapes a daughter – and then he goes and tells people how to have marvelous relationships. I'm sorry, that's what I have against Werner Erhard.
...
DR. BOB LARZELERE
"I am god."
ED BRADLEY
I beg your pardon?
DR. BOB LARZELERE
"I am god." He could, he had, he did say sometimes in staff meetings
...
ED BRADLEY
And what about his relationship with his own children?
CELESTE ERHARD
I have been afraid, deeply afraid of my father my whole life. My whole life.
ED BRADLEY, VOICE-OVER
Celeste Erhard is Werner Erhard's oldest daughter from his second marriage.
CELESTE ERHARD (crying)
It's funny because – you almost feel stupid, that you're afraid of him, but – he's a terrifying man, he can be very terrifying.
ED BRADLEY, VOICE-OVER
Just how terrifying? Dawn Damas was the family's governess and is still a close friend. She says she saw Erhard assault his son St. John, or "sinjin" as he's called, when the boy was only twelve.
DAWN DAMAS
He started to ask St. John about school and started to notice St. John's grades, and got livid, and went over to Sinjin and started to slap him and hit him, and picked him up and threw him on the ground and started to kick him – in front of everybody and nobody moved, everyone was paralyzed. Um, and then said to St. John: "If you ever get grades like this again, I'll break both of your legs with a baseball bat."
...
ED BRADLEY, VOICE-OVER
The assault on Ellen Erhard, her daughters say, went on for two nights.
ED BRADLEY
Did you try to stop them?
CELESTE ERHARD
At one point, on the second night, I did stand up and say: "Please, you're killing her, you're killing her." I mean, my mother was blue, her face was blue, she had, like drool coming out of the side of her mouth. She was dying. She was, you know, suffocating. And all he said to me was: "Sit down, or you'll get more of the same." And that is a direct quote, I remember every word. And that's all he said. And I sat down.
...
Deborah Rosenberg is one of Erhard's daughters, from his first marriage. She's never spoken publicly about her father before, but she told us that her father sexually abused her.
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
I don't have a problem saying that it happened. I don't like describing, it. Um, but I don't have a problem admitting that he molested me.
ED BRADLEY
How old were you?
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
I was sixteen.
ED BRADLEY
Has your father ever sexually abused any of your siblings?
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
Yes. And it runs from, I don't know, maybe you want to call it pornography all the way to rape.
...
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
Um, I wasn't there. But I believe my sister when she says that my father raped her.
ED BRADLEY
She told you what happened?
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
Yes.
ED BRADLEY
And what did she say happened?
DEBORAH ROSENBERG
She says that they were on a trip together, and um, they had come back after dinner and he had a very large suite and um, they were reading a magazine together and – you know I'd rather not go specifically into, you know the details, but, um, he forcibly had sexual intercourse with her.
ED BRADLEY
This is incest, you're –
...
Re: Werner Erhard, "he beats his wife..his children, and rapes a daugh
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 20, 2008 07:47PM
Anticultist:
As I recall only one daughter recanted, the other did not.
And the ex-wife never recanted.
Name calling will get you banned, per the rules you agreed to before posting here.
Have you ever been involved in any way, shape or form with either est, the Forum or Landmark Education?
As I recall only one daughter recanted, the other did not.
And the ex-wife never recanted.
Name calling will get you banned, per the rules you agreed to before posting here.
Have you ever been involved in any way, shape or form with either est, the Forum or Landmark Education?
Re: Werner Erhard on Integrity, Morality, Ethics, Legality (not a joke!)
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 20, 2008 09:44PM
If you want to know whether Anticultist was involved with Landmark, go do an all dates and all forums search and you will get this. Read the first post which was put on May 29th, on the thread about being terminated for refusing to attend LEC on orders from one's employer.
Observe the context. Several RR.com members were giving advice on how to seek legal redress when this popped up from Anticultist--who makes it seem that doing LEC led to his or her being fired because it had made him or her a more honest person--and that his boss perhaps just couldnt handle this new and radical honesty in an employee.
[forum.culteducation.com]
On May 29th, zastbox had written:
(quote) Actually Zorro, we do live in Texas.
My husband does have documentation stating the mandate to attend Landmark. It also says "those that choose not to attend will no longer have a place in the company".(unquote)
and on that same day we get the first post from Anticultist:
(quote)zastdbox - I too got fired recently, though after attending the Landmark Forum. I think it's because my boss didn't like me after doing it - I was more honest with him about how I felt about the job, which I think he took to be more confrontational.
"He cited being late on projects as the reason for being fired, yet something tells me there's a lot more than that.
I went to the Forum on advice of a colleague. This is a first one that someone has mandated the Forum - can you scan the document so RickRoss.com can add it to the website? (unquote)
[forum.culteducation.com]
A Public Service Announcement
Congratulations to our long time and valued correspondant The Anticult.
You've received the ultimate compliment:
A potential troll has arrived bearing a handle so similar to yours that it could
easily confuse later visitors to this board.
Here is a way to assess the contributions--and integrity--of those who correspond:
Do a search by author name and then read/audit the posts--and do an all dates and all forums search.
It is a very fast way to see whether someone is running a troll racket.
The one thing Ive noticed is that persons who arrive at RR.com with an honest agenda show great diversity in writing styles, tone, and the kind of information they offer.
The trolls and apologists turn out to be boringly similar--as if the time spent in their organizations have turned them from human beings into mere, standardized products.
But...humanity can be reclaimed.
And RR.com is for those who want to stay human or resume being human after exposure to groups or relationships in which it was impossible to give any sort of informed consent at the start of the process.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 09:57PM by corboy.
Observe the context. Several RR.com members were giving advice on how to seek legal redress when this popped up from Anticultist--who makes it seem that doing LEC led to his or her being fired because it had made him or her a more honest person--and that his boss perhaps just couldnt handle this new and radical honesty in an employee.
[forum.culteducation.com]
On May 29th, zastbox had written:
(quote) Actually Zorro, we do live in Texas.
My husband does have documentation stating the mandate to attend Landmark. It also says "those that choose not to attend will no longer have a place in the company".(unquote)
and on that same day we get the first post from Anticultist:
(quote)zastdbox - I too got fired recently, though after attending the Landmark Forum. I think it's because my boss didn't like me after doing it - I was more honest with him about how I felt about the job, which I think he took to be more confrontational.
"He cited being late on projects as the reason for being fired, yet something tells me there's a lot more than that.
I went to the Forum on advice of a colleague. This is a first one that someone has mandated the Forum - can you scan the document so RickRoss.com can add it to the website? (unquote)
[forum.culteducation.com]
A Public Service Announcement
Congratulations to our long time and valued correspondant The Anticult.
You've received the ultimate compliment:
A potential troll has arrived bearing a handle so similar to yours that it could
easily confuse later visitors to this board.
Here is a way to assess the contributions--and integrity--of those who correspond:
Do a search by author name and then read/audit the posts--and do an all dates and all forums search.
It is a very fast way to see whether someone is running a troll racket.
The one thing Ive noticed is that persons who arrive at RR.com with an honest agenda show great diversity in writing styles, tone, and the kind of information they offer.
The trolls and apologists turn out to be boringly similar--as if the time spent in their organizations have turned them from human beings into mere, standardized products.
But...humanity can be reclaimed.
And RR.com is for those who want to stay human or resume being human after exposure to groups or relationships in which it was impossible to give any sort of informed consent at the start of the process.
Edited 3 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 09:57PM by corboy.
Werner Erhard "he beats his wife..his children...rapes a daughter"CBS
Posted by:
The Anticult
()
Date: June 20, 2008 10:10PM
This is the REAL The Anticult, not the fake-one. Lots of name-games here.
Notice how some fake skeptics infiltrate blogs and message boards, and pretend to be skeptics and critics, but they are really there so soft-sell their own Guru of choice? There is lots of that happening, some even have set up their own blogs. Some are just "moles" on sites like this.
They bash OTHERS Gurus, but soft-sell their own Guru. Clever.
But hey, Werner/Jack/Hans Erhard/Spits/Rosenberg can change his name every few years.
...like conmen do...and live a life on the run...tricking, scamming...flipping companies...live on a boat...
No one here wrote any of that text, its a transcript from a news program.
Did 60 Minutes recant their news report? If you have a problem, take it up with 60 Minutes.
What kind of person, like Werner Erhard, has several members of his own family say things like that?
What is most logical?
What is most logical is that they told the truth, and then perhaps were later pressured into making settlements? Carrot and stick, keep talking it hits the courts for years, or take this settlement and return to private life. That seems more logical.
What about the beatings?
What about saying he was God?
Sounds like a "maniac", as they used to call them in the 60's.
So take it up with 60 Minutes, the top journalism and news program in TV history.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 10:18PM by The Anticult.
Notice how some fake skeptics infiltrate blogs and message boards, and pretend to be skeptics and critics, but they are really there so soft-sell their own Guru of choice? There is lots of that happening, some even have set up their own blogs. Some are just "moles" on sites like this.
They bash OTHERS Gurus, but soft-sell their own Guru. Clever.
But hey, Werner/Jack/Hans Erhard/Spits/Rosenberg can change his name every few years.
...like conmen do...and live a life on the run...tricking, scamming...flipping companies...live on a boat...
No one here wrote any of that text, its a transcript from a news program.
Did 60 Minutes recant their news report? If you have a problem, take it up with 60 Minutes.
What kind of person, like Werner Erhard, has several members of his own family say things like that?
What is most logical?
What is most logical is that they told the truth, and then perhaps were later pressured into making settlements? Carrot and stick, keep talking it hits the courts for years, or take this settlement and return to private life. That seems more logical.
What about the beatings?
What about saying he was God?
Sounds like a "maniac", as they used to call them in the 60's.
So take it up with 60 Minutes, the top journalism and news program in TV history.
Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 10:18PM by The Anticult.
Re: Werner Erhard "he beats his wife..his children...rapes a daughter"CBS
Posted by:
corboy
()
Date: June 20, 2008 10:42PM
To repeat, good friends, it is easy and simple for any registered of this board (and even for a visitor) to do a search and study the cumulative posts of a particular author. (The 'Search' button is in the top right corner of the RR.com window with a small icon of a magnifying glass next to it.)
The most effective method of Early Detection of Trolls is to do it when a correspondant is new and has not yet generated a large number of posts.
If you get a feeling of annoyance or of nagging unease, the sort of thing that Inspector Keys in the film Double Indemnity called 'a funny feeling' about a new visitor's posts, do an audit of all the stuff he/she has written. See what patterns emerge.
If you do 'All Dates' and 'All Forums' you will even get to see whether someone behaves in a consistent manner all across the board or if they display bad manners on one forum and act comparatively nicey-nicey on another forum.
Persons who fear and hate what is being discussed on RR.com cannot maintain the facade of politeness (or suave skepticism) for very long.
And if we catch on to the game, we of course are accused of suspicion or paranoia--which, coming from a troll, is a compliment.
It can be interesting to observe the context in which trollish behavior shows up, or when a sudden influx of disruptive visitors attempts to disrupt a discussion.
Why didnt the troll visitors show up earlier? Why now? Whats the context?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 10:50PM by corboy.
The most effective method of Early Detection of Trolls is to do it when a correspondant is new and has not yet generated a large number of posts.
If you get a feeling of annoyance or of nagging unease, the sort of thing that Inspector Keys in the film Double Indemnity called 'a funny feeling' about a new visitor's posts, do an audit of all the stuff he/she has written. See what patterns emerge.
If you do 'All Dates' and 'All Forums' you will even get to see whether someone behaves in a consistent manner all across the board or if they display bad manners on one forum and act comparatively nicey-nicey on another forum.
Persons who fear and hate what is being discussed on RR.com cannot maintain the facade of politeness (or suave skepticism) for very long.
And if we catch on to the game, we of course are accused of suspicion or paranoia--which, coming from a troll, is a compliment.
It can be interesting to observe the context in which trollish behavior shows up, or when a sudden influx of disruptive visitors attempts to disrupt a discussion.
Why didnt the troll visitors show up earlier? Why now? Whats the context?
Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 06/20/2008 10:50PM by corboy.
Re: Werner Erhard on Integrity, Morality, Ethics, Legality (not a joke
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: June 20, 2008 10:45PM
Thanks Corboy.
Re: Werner Erhard, "he beats his wife..his children, and rapes a daugh
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: June 21, 2008 01:27AM
Quote
AntiCultist
The Anticult - I too dislike cults, but what you posted here is downright offensive, false (unless you post the recant) and has been cleared up to have been a false allegation, by his own daughter's statements. I am neither for nor against Werner or EST - but I think you just crossed the line of ethical behavior on this board, and I am hoping Rick Ross doesn't allow libel on here to perpetuate. If you are going to post this, then post the fact that his own daughter recanted those same charges, so we can have the whole truth, and nothing but.
This way, you are just making RR.com look bad for everyone who stumbles upon it and are turning it into a hate-mongering place.
I like facts - but I like them complete and whole, not one sided/biased.
AntiCultist
LOLOL...
This stuff always cracks me up. These idiots pop up consistently demanding ~the truth, the whole truth, nothing but the truth,~ as though they were in supreme possession of it and in the supreme position of being able to detect it and pronounce it, all the while being the most rabid and fervent of the brainwashed cult members who turn a blind eye to all the lies, distortions, and confabulations of their various cult higher-ups.
Listen up "Anti-cultist:"
Werner Erhard abandoned a wife with four children who was left to raise them on her own. He stole cars, committed bigamy, was directly responsible for the State of California's findings of abusive sales practices by the people he trained to sell books door-to-door, and was dogged for a lifetime by reports of adultery and other abuse of people. He was particularly exploitive of employees, if you believe the hundreds of accounts of those who were included in his "inner-circle." The fact is that one of his daughters was willing to go on national TV and accuse him of sexual abuse. No one except the two people involved will ever know the real truth of what happened but what kind of man or parent must he have been for her to do this? Ask yourself that, why don't you.
Ellen
Re: Werner Erhard on Integrity, Morality, Ethics, Legality (not a joke
Posted by:
elena
()
Date: June 21, 2008 02:37AM
Oh and by the by,
Though he denied "raping" her, he admitted to "having sex" with her, which he characterized as being a "nurturing" experience.
Ellen
Though he denied "raping" her, he admitted to "having sex" with her, which he characterized as being a "nurturing" experience.
Ellen
Re: Werner Erhard on Integrity, Morality, Ethics, Legality (not a joke
Posted by:
ON2 LF
()
Date: June 21, 2008 04:19AM
Nice catch corboy. It seems Anticultist is quite deliberate about which posts to respond to. What other names has/is 'Anticultist' used/using to defend Landmark on this board, I wonder?
Quote
corboy
If you want to know whether Anticultist was involved with Landmark, go do an all dates and all forums search and you will get this. Read the first post which was put on May 29th, on the thread about being terminated for refusing to attend LEC on orders from one's employer.
Observe the context. Several RR.com members were giving advice on how to seek legal redress when this popped up from Anticultist--who makes it seem that doing LEC led to his or her being fired because it had made him or her a more honest person--and that his boss perhaps just couldnt handle this new and radical honesty in an employee.
[forum.culteducation.com]
On May 29th, zastbox had written:
(quote) Actually Zorro, we do live in Texas.
My husband does have documentation stating the mandate to attend Landmark. It also says "those that choose not to attend will no longer have a place in the company".(unquote)
and on that same day we get the first post from Anticultist:
(quote)zastdbox - I too got fired recently, though after attending the Landmark Forum. I think it's because my boss didn't like me after doing it - I was more honest with him about how I felt about the job, which I think he took to be more confrontational.
"He cited being late on projects as the reason for being fired, yet something tells me there's a lot more than that.
I went to the Forum on advice of a colleague. This is a first one that someone has mandated the Forum - can you scan the document so RickRoss.com can add it to the website? (unquote)
[forum.culteducation.com]
A Public Service Announcement
Congratulations to our long time and valued correspondant The Anticult.
You've received the ultimate compliment:
A potential troll has arrived bearing a handle so similar to yours that it could
easily confuse later visitors to this board.
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