Hi all. I had heard both from a friend of mine and from my boyfriend that during the forums there were a couple very
exciting (for all the chumps there) rumours spreading through the crowds at break times, in heated excited whispers and cool Landmark chat/gossip sessions.

One of these was, that the Wachowski brothers had done the forum and the advance course, and based their "Matrix" film on the underlying concepts. In fact, when I asked my friends about what actually happened at the forum, and they basically didn't know/remember and/or were under some kind of instruction NOT to say anything about it (I think it was both, they did tell me more at some point, but still don't remember much) anyways when I asked them about the forum experience, their big comeback was "We need to watch The Matrix together, then you will understand everything. The Forum is like the Matrix, and waking up to a whole new world." A compelling imagery, of course...
not sure if the speaker actually used that imagery or mentioned that... however, they both kind of had it in their heads that the "you are a machine and the world is meaningless" was this kind of matrix experience that just left everybody naked and dripping in the incredible new rawness of existential being-ness.
(yes, the fact that their scam is somewhat clever just pisses me off more *smile*). Ok, well, anyways, has anybody heard anything about this rumour? I mean, it may be true, maybe not.
Anybody know for sure? Just curious.

One of the other hot-topic inside landmark rumours is that there is an (authoritative) survey/study out there somewhere, that actually lists the 100 most "exciting" experiences possible in life, and the survey actually lists "going to the moon" as the number one experience, and "doing the forum" as the second.

Now, this may seem really lame, nauseating, absurd etc., but within the context of the forum it really seems to excite the people, and gives you an idea of what they are being convinced of.









:rolleyes:

Yes, and I also heard that Lord of the Rings director Peter Jackson is a secret disciple of ISKCON's Hridayananda Maharaj. They have all kinds of rumors about celebrities, which require lots of corroborating evidence if you don't have the celebrity admitting their affiliation.

Matrix uses eastern conceptions of our world not being the true existence, but stops short right there. There is no respect for life as there is in Hinduism and Buddhism, nor is there any type of spiritual goal. More than anything, it is utilyzed as a excuse for random acts of violence (it was Agent Smith!).

One of the last public words of convicted sniper Lee Malvo was something like "free yourselves of the Matrix". The mentality that the film introduces preys upon the most depressed and despondent (not that I think it should be outlawed or censored).

That being said, I doubt the brothers ever went to any Landmark course. Sounds like LEC is trying to grasp for straws, associating celebrities and films with their philosophy.

yeah, if you do a search on wachowski and matrix and landmark there is an article, seemingly slanted against landmark (or against these positivist "faith in nothing" completely deterministic type philosophies in general) that mentions that they took the course. Any one know if it's true?

As for the matrix, yeah, I always thought there was a weird, almost terrorist premise to it. The day after it opened those columbine kids went off, dressed exactly like neo et al. Personally, I did like those movies... this landmark rumour maybe made me like them a bit less.

As for the existential doubting of everything and every faith... well, you can't blame somebody for not believing something that there's no evidence for and for thinking they've been conditioned. However, in my estimation, this will all boil down at some point to the idea of will/power... if you are going to take it to that level. And since landmark is abusing people's will and taking away their "power" (even while it tells them it's giving it to them) and since their technique is basically bound up with the idea of their amway marketing type thing or whatever... therefore "Landmark" is not the path to freedom, but is just an expression of a few key people's power and will (their "creation" or "possibility") which is that they can shamelessly con and control a nice little chunk of people, profit wildly, and there is no real "blame" in it, because all those people are essentially buying into it from their own lowest common denominator ie: that everything is about me me me and that I don't believe in anything, care about anything, and just want to get what I want. So, by selling out and abandoning everything, they thusly get themselves screwed by landmark, who is running the show.

The familiar ethos of the grifter and the con-man, who uses the greed of others to rip them off... and in the end begrudges them any tiny benefit they might somehow or other acquire from the interaction, even if it's a lesson or a moral feeling of some kind.

a bit more about the ethos of the con-man and the grifter... something I've seen a lot of myself, having worked in the investment "industry" and also having had a few fantastically
talented and underhanded friends who basically conned people out of money for a living over the phone...

It is exactly like this:

The con-man actually sees himself as morally superior. Most of them see/paint themselves as very conservative, family oriented, moral people. If they can imagine a way to look down on you, morally, they will.

So then, when they are suckering/pushing/pressuring you into some incredibly bad rip-off a deal, YOU are the bad one, YOU are the "moocher", the "lookie-loo", the "cheapskate", the one who is "afraid to take a chance", afraid to "make a commitment", "wasting my time", "a stroker", etc. Basically, if you don't write me the check, after I've spent this much time conning you, then you are a piece of crap.

Secondly, along the way, it's just not enough unless the con-man has basically put his hand on your wife's ass a few times, as well as humiliated you and put you down/insulted you and done this in such a way that you accept it. That way, when you wake up and DO realize you were ripped off, you will also know at that point, that you were insulted as well. Con-men have this ego thing like that.

Thirdly, whatever the ripoff/bad investment / whatever is, when you finally do figure out what it is, it's not enough that it's not what you thought it was, not enough that you lost 90% of your money, no, it basically has to be absolutely worthless, nothing... or better yet, something that you will still have to pay MORE money for (payments, margin calls, etc.). This is the complete f-you that it all gets around to.

It seems clear enough that wiener von stalingrad is the only one of the landmarkies who hasn't been "processed", but it's also quite clear that many of their operators are cynical con-people who are consciously acting out there own worthlessness and self-loathing through the exciting, interactive venue of landmark forum.

Anybody thinks they have a reasonable answer/rebuttal for this, step on up.

:)

Tricky, i think you are right on in your analysis of the confidence man's mind.
A related example, that has been shown in many studies, is that people who commit violent crimes against others, actually SEE THEMSELVES AS THE VICTIM, and that they were somehow defending themselves from the other person. They are able to turn everything totally backasswards in their mind.
So they perceive the actual victim as the offender.

Back to the conman. For instance, Tony Robbins seems to literally believe he is teaching people how to not get tricked and scammed by others, BY TRICKING AND SCAMMING THEM. Part of the rationalization is that you teach people how vulnerable they are to total manipulation, by doing it to them in a way they will never forget for the rest of their life. That is, if you sign them up for a dumb course for 50K, and they borrow that money, and get totally suckered, then they will learn from this that they are totally vulnerable to getting manipulated, and so in the future will be aware what salesmen and advertisers are doing to them. So basically Tony Robbins is doing Gods work.

That is similar to the idea of people "buying in" to losing their power, so they deserve what they get.
Its a total rationalization to allow those folks to do whatever they want to people. After all, if they weren't so weak and stupid, then it wouldn't happen to them, right?

Or like the guy who robs your house. He might think, "hey this guy has had it easy, not like me, and he has insurance, and he'll get all new stuff, and no one ever gave me anything for free, so i have it coming to me, and f this guy anyway, probably some greedy lawyer, so i'll kick this piece of art in, i gotta make a living, i need my money, etc", so they rob and ransack your house, and believe you deserved it.

Everyone has some type of rationalization to "make it seem ok" for them to do what they want.

Coz

Coz,
I think you are right on with what you say. Wow, I had no idea that some Tony Robbins courses cost 50k. The cognitive dissonance involved with the aftermath of that must be overwhelming. I was watching their infomercial... just great. Tony Robbins is talking to the interviewer, standing in some garden in Hawaii, and he's wearing these strange jeans, which come up almost to his chest, and this weird belt. Like some strangely repulsive father figure or something. I honestly feel that that is one of the angles... that the excitement of the degradation is not just that you are (subconsciously) giving over your power, your self (money is just a symbol), etc., but that you are giving it to this very strange character, this sort of megalomic bobble head doll nerd with high water pants who spits when he talks. The self denial and self negation must be... delicious for some people. Somehow erotic almost, like the way a beautiful supermodel might fantasize about being spanked and humiliated by a slovenly, greasy, rude, middle aged trucker in the back of his truck somewhere. It's as if the shadow of all the pride and materialism and conceit is this total wish for humiliation and even self destruction, on a completely unconscious level, of course.

Ok, well, this digression kind of in a roundabout way brings us back to the landmark discussion, and/or con-man mentality discussion. Because you bring up some interesting points. But I would take it even a step further, and say that there is actually the remnants of a type of moral orthodoxy buried somewhere in there... which sort of rationalizes thusly:

"These people come here because they don't believe in anything.
They don't have any close relations and are detached because they are selfish and don't care about anyone. They want to rule the world, and are at the root of everything just a**holes, who want-want-want and take-take-take and the only thing limiting them is their stupidity, their laziness, their fear, and all the limitations created in them by their failures and pain, and by authority. They are now buying into the idea that everything is meaningless, that all that matters in life is what THEY want, and that they are essentially the all powerful creators of their existence. Therefore, since they are sitting here, within my control for the moment, I shall feel no conscience about brainwashing, manipulating and controlling or using them unscrupulously, about tricking them, tearing them down, and humiliating them. They have tried to sell their souls to me, but I don't want them, and I even tell them they have no souls. They bow down to the glory of the axe even as the axe is raised against them. They are mere animals and machines and it is the expression of my power that I herd them into landmark classrooms and brainwash them. It turns out the I AM the moral one... in the end, I am better."


Now, that might seem REALLY over the top and too extreme, but in a way, I'm sure you see exactly what I am talking about. It's not just that you deserve this because "you're weak", or because "I deserve what you have", rather, it is that you deserve this because this is what you want to do, too. Your own controlling/selfish/piggish nature lures you into this, and serves nicely to facilitate the process as soon as the technology is used to turn its power against yourself. The carrot on the stick can only be reached by you working hard to "disappear" and dissasemble yourself, thus your own greed and selfishness drive you to your
mental subjection. (which of course is what a large percentage want, anyways).


The ultimate slap in the face, from my perspective, is that when people are in the forum, at the end, and they "wake up" and are told/realize that life is "meaningless", that they are "free", that nothing matters, that they have complete power and freedom and existential truth to attain whatever they want (HOOOORAAAY)
... the insult is, that now they have just had THE most exciting experience of their LIVES... the MOST profound experience... this is it, this is the pinnacle of everything... but the aftermath of "it" is that you will now dutifully keep your sore, tired ass in your seat for 4-6 more hours while I bore the crap out of you with additional (presumably unneccessary?) transparently banal sales talk, recruiting talk, advice, directives blah blah blah whatever. So, you've just won the superbowl, but hey, don't go out and party and get laid and live it up with your friends and touch the sky, just sit in your chair and listen to me tell you what is what for a few more hours. Something like "here's a pack of gum, let me show you how to chew it."

And if you still don't realize it's bullcrap, then it's because you are self destructive. Although landmark is probably, in the end, not a strong enough flavor to satisfy you. I mean, look at all these neurotic 50-somethings walking around who've been doing it forever. F***ed out, probably done every group, course, guru, cult, self improvement, pill, whatever since the seventies, and they're STILL here. Do you really want to end up like that?

Just a quick note on Robbins, he has courses and products that cost well over 50K a year. Basically, if you have money, he has a 'service" to take it from you, with no limit.

EVERY WORD AND MOVEMENT BY ROBBINS IN THAT INFOMERCIAL is very carefully designed. Every edit, voice-over, celebrity, and type of person he shows are very carefully designed for effect. When he is talking with those people on the beach, he is doing Eriksonian Hypnotic Persuasion on them.

Here is a thread i made with info about his recent infomercial. I even show how he makes women LOVE him, using some NLP techniques.
Its from the Robbins forum, so i was faking being somewhat pro-Robbins, sortof like a Trojan Coz, until they censored me, of course...

[www.tonyrobbins.com]

[www.tonyrobbins.com]


here are other posts from this forum about Robbins, if you are interested.
[forum.culteducation.com]

Coz,

Very cool. I actually wasn't that aware of Robbins until I read some info about him here on this site. I just remember that a while back I bought some of his CDs at a used book store, and I listened to them while driving, but then after a while I realized that he was interesting to talk to, but I had no idea what the heck he was talking about. Like, it seemed to "make sense" and feel good, but when I tried to draw from it, I just had no idea what he was teaching or even what was on the CDs. Which is odd.

But yeah, I do sense that, exactly what you said, that every detail is carefully designed. If he is absurd and nerdily revolting, it is by design. And of course there is the quick shot of him stripped down to bicycle shorts and tank top, with his headset on, pumping his fists and yelling (dynamically), bathed in the spotlight while the faceless people in the crowd wave their hands (presumably in some kind of ecstasy).

Of course, if you check out the landmarkeducation.com website, if you look carefully, you can see that every picture on their is a careful crafted invitation to insecure, weak people. ALL of the pictures on landmarkeducation.com (except the tiny pics of the FLs), while they SEEM to be positive, are actually virtual portraits of insecurity. There is the main pic on the front page, the happy guy with glasses... who if you look closely is actually the verty portrait of weary, middle aged, powerless angst. The other pictures contain carefully crafted details depicting various types of insecurities (the crows feet, the flat chests, the fear, the cluelessness, the disenfranchised, the stupid, etc.) Not to put any of these characteristics down, in and of themselves, but it is like a subconscious invite to people through their own PERCEIVED insecurities about themselves... sort of like "this is you, come here and be transformed" or, more like a cigarretted ad, "this is you, come here and disappear." :) I would highly recommend to study the pics on the landmark site, and catalogue the insecurities you see pictured and implied there.

Gotta go. Here is a quick quote:

"Welcome to the camp
I guess you all know why you're here.
My name is Tommy, and I became aware this year.
If you want to follow me, you've got to play pinball
and put on your earplugs, put on your eyeshades
you know where to put the cork!

Now you can't hear me... your ears are truly sealed.
You can't speak either! 'Cause your mouth is filled.
You can't see nothing, and pinball completes the scene
here come willing helpers, to guide you to,
your very own machine."

--- "Tommy's Holiday Camp", From "Tommy", by the Who

Like moths to a flame...

Why is a celebrity a celebrity?
Why is an idol an idol?
Why would anyone care if the Wachowski brothers did the forum?

Misdirection is the foundation of prestidigitation.....and politics :D

Guy

Those Landmark photos look like stock photos to me, you can just buy them and use them. I doubt if the models know how their images are being used.
But the images are pretty funny.

Bicycle for two in the sunset, happy girlfriends, the up and coming cool black guy, the yoga chic, and yes, the glossy eyed middle aged white guy losing his hair and staring off into space in a trance who is so choked with massive consumer debt that he is contemplating suicide.

I can almost feel the contempt the Landmarkians have for their "fresh meat" they are bringing in. I think they despise them.

Coz