Thanks for your insight Tricky. There definitely seems to be some deeply imbedded allegiance to a group of strangers far and above that of our relationship. And last week and for the las ttwo years, it's been a GREAT, loving relationship.

My main concern now, since I've done tons of research on this is how they say the teachings are for those who are "well". She has ALOT of mental illness in her family. One parent in an institution for years, one that's in the middle of a breakdown RIGHT NOW and an aunt that committed suicide. So, if these teachings are THAT dangerous for people who may not be "well" then I find it hard to just sit here and see how things develop.

"We're all machines and life is meaningless".

I even talked to a friend that did the Forum about 4 years ago and didn't like it. I asked him to tell me the big secret. Even HE wouldn't! And he disagrees with the teachings! He said he couldn't remember any big secret. WHAT?! After three days of all that crap and then the big prize and then you forget it?!

KeepitUp,

Well, one piece of advice that I could give you is, not to get too panicked about it. If you start arguing with her, and it gets too intense, then it's like you're going to break up the relationship, just because of the arguing. She probably wants you to do the forum, and she probably wants you to be closer to her. So, I would suggest, get closer to her. Try to learn about the landmark concepts, and really try to relate to her on that level, but at the same time, emphasizing to her that these teachings are not exclusive to Landmark. In a friendly way, show her how these concepts are derived from Heidegger, from positivist psychology, from zen, etc. And I really emphasize, talk to her about her childhood, tell her that she was great, find out what her big traumas were that she brought out. Also, talk to her and find out what her "new self" or whatever is, find out what she is "taking a stand" for, what are her big "rackets". Y'know, you might find out way more about her than you knew before... in part because she will be reluctant to lie. She's probably trying to kind of manually hold together her "reality" mentally, in a landmark framework, if that makes any sense. One of the big teachings is that you are responsible for everything in your own reality... for instance, one example given (that she will probably remember from the forum) is that even an infant who got bombed in vietnam by B-52s was "responsible" for that "reality", actually "created" it.

I don't know... maybe there's not TOO much reason to get too far into where her head is at... because the stuff wears off. Even if she does more courses and stuff, she will most likely want to stay with you... and she'll get tired of the landmark stuff sooner or later. To speed up the process, maybe talk to her about mind control techniques. Also, I'd highly suggest getting her to watch "Captive minds: hypnosis and beyond", a 1 hour video that is available for viewing on the internet from a lot of sites. It is an eye opener. One experiment, which I never tried, but which would be interesting, would be to take her to a timeshare presentation... just let the timeshare sharks work on her for a few hours, till she is ready to buy a couple timeshares etc. (don't let her bring her checkbook). Then take her to a church that really does high pressure group recruitment (Jehova witnesses or something). Then take her to a used car lot. Then visit a scientology center or something like that. Then another timeshare place. After she's been completely sold/transformed/enrolled a few times in a few different ways, she might start to think about it.

I don't know... my boyfriend wasn't into philosophy/psychology at all... but doing landmark, suddenly he wanted to spend all this time/money on philosophy and psychology. And so, I went after it at that level, trying to convince him... but ultimately, he's just not that interested in psychology. It was just the buzz, the group excitement, all that that the liked. It's all about feelings... give your girlfriend good feelings and be there for her in this difficult time, don't push her away. I think there's two elements to "landmark feelings", the first is the good-buzz -self -dissolving -transformational -bliss type good feelings... the second is the internalized groupfear- authority -behave- giantcorporation -"we're everywhere and we're watching you" don't- think- outside the -lines- or -your- reality- will- come -crashing- down -on -you type bad feelings.

my theory is that on one level it's very complex... but on another it's completely simple to just walk away. If you're buying into it, it's incredibly complex, but from another perspective, it doesn't even exist, it's just empty air space. And the effect does wear off... everybody seems to say that the forum is the high point,
and from there it just gets more boring, more about enrollment, more work-like, more conformist, etc.

'my theory is that on one level it's very complex... but on another it's completely simple to just walk away.'

Thats like saying that with just a little more awareness you can win at a game of marked cards, not knowing its a game of marked cards.

They talk about freedom, but freedom is excluded in problematic LGATs. To use the concept by Janja Lalitch, its likely that a problematic LGAT is a social venue characterizec by bounded choice--your decision making is exercised in a shrinking menu of options, making departure unthinkable.

Former LGAT participants report on this board

1) You're bombarded by phone calls at home if you try to leave the training before completing it

2) You're in a room where the tempreture is reportedly manipulated several times a day (according to the paper by Drew Kopp and by people who have done the program)

3) Hope reported she was not told she'd up way past bed time and sleep deprived, *meaning the teaching hits a part of you that is mostly inacessible to adult conscious insight*

Result of all this is that it is not 'completely simple to just walk away'. That implies that the person taking a problematic LGAT is in total control of the outcome, when in fact that person is, from the various sources referred to above, fed through a huge, impersonal indoctrination process.

If walking away were simple, the RR.com LGAT related threads would not get such a high number of views from guests who visit this site--and who visit because they're concerned.

Unlike problematic LGATs , RR.com doesnt advertise or do outreach. We offer a quality service and, unlike problematic LGATs we offer it for free.

RR.com doesnt run ads. People do their own searches and keep coming here, on their own initiative.

Saying 'you can always just walk away' distracts from the huge effort these programs reportedly make to ensure that 'walking away' will be difficult, not easy.

Tricky says, "the stuff wears off. Even if she does more courses and stuff, she will most likely want to stay with you... and she'll get tired of the landmark stuff sooner or later."

Not according to the complaints I receive almost every day.

Divorce, breakups, breakdowns and even hospital stays may be the result of this "stuff."

Beware.

Landmark not only may not "wear off," it is potentially dangerous and may have serious residual effects.

Landmark has repeatedly been sued for personal injuries, which is why their paperwork requires participants to sign off on a provision for "binding arbitration" regarding any future claim against them.

Anyone seriously concerned about a situation related to Landmark should strongly consider seeking professional help.

This might include identifying a mental health professional in your area with direct experience treating the casualties of large group awareness or mass marathon training, such as Landmark Education.

See [www.culteducation.com]

John Hochamn MD is in Los Angeles, Philip Cushman Ph.D. is in San Francisco, Paul Martin Ph.D is in Albany, Ohio and Carlos Reuda MD practices in New York City.

These mental health professionals have direct experience dealing with large group awareness training.

See [www.culteducation.com]

The above link discusses Reuda's work with three NXIVM casualties. A fourth was recently hospitalized. And a tragic suicide never made it to treatment.

NXIVM is yet another large group awareness training program that seems to be largely based upon Scientology and Landmark Education.

Experimenting with someone's life in a serious situation based upon anecdotal advice can easily become problematic and could be potentially unsafe.

Be very cautious.

Another possible option is professional intervention.

See [www.culteducation.com]

This approach is not free, but may prove meaningful.

rrmoderator and Corboy,

You guys are of course totally correct in what you're saying.
Maybe my post was kind of flippant... I didn't mean for it to be.
I started off kind of trying to analyze a certain aspect of it. I guess my point was, that the teachings and all that are very complex, and present all kinds of traps and tricks and seductions... but basically only if you are buying into it and involved. That's probably why they don't want people to drink etc., because you have to actively involve your mind and your attention with the stuff. If somehow you just weren't listening to it, or thinking about it... then it all just becomes about spaced out center volunteers pressuring you to come to one program after another and sign up for one course after another.

I definitely experienced that my friends were very *gung ho* immediately after doing courses... but that several weeks later they seemed to be more capable of putting it into perspective. I definitely suspect that the training/trance needs to be sustained somehow... hence the seminar etc. But definitely, definitely, I do see the dangers of it, believe me. I could not BELIEVE the outrageous effect the training had on my friends... my boyfriend in particular seemed to lose this magic spark that he used to have in his eyes... and would call me on the phone during the day, his voice sounding very highly agitated (so unlike him) and be telling me how everything was great, and he was going to landmark that night... just f***ing zombie land. Very disturbing to me, personally... however, I was able to get both my friends to stop going and also to see the reality of it, and they've both learned to dislike it *almost* as much as I do.

One time, we were at a party, and several landmark people were there, and I was talking to them... who were rather unimpressive... they seemed to be somewhat uptight, yuppyish types... who had taken refuge in landmark as a result of their own glaring insecurities. However, there was this odd creepiness about them... and when I was off by the pool talking to some people, and came back to find three of them huddled around my boyfriend, I became uneasy... also, the way my boyfriend got really uptight when I was talking to them (in a friendly way) about landmark. It seemed odd the kind of group rapport they all seemed to share, like they just huddled and talked in hushed tones... it just seemed odd. Like he was party party party with everybody else, then huddled with the landmarkies whispering about something when he was with them... some kind of jekyl and hyde duality thing going on. After that, I was VERY DEFINITELY opposed to the idea of him going to meetings and pow wowing with a hundred or so of them, plus the leader or whatever. Now, he jokes to me about how he doesn't want to talk to landmark people because of "the word games they play." :) From the start I was very highly concerned about the vast smorgasbord of manipulative tactics they used in the forum... from the exhaustion, to the use of commitment and consistency, to manipulation of group dynamics, language, on and on, you name it, if it's been documented as underhanded mind manipulation you can be absolutely sure they're using it at Landmark. The more I learned about landmarka, the less I liked it... although I will admit that in my process of going *undercover* to learn everything about their teachings and develop landmark rapport with my friends, I did find some of the teachings compelling... I have since seen through their teachings however, and that is that. I haven't heard anybody mention subliminal messages in music etc., but I mean *jeez* if it works and they can do it then I'm sure they are, I mean why the f*** not?

So, yeah, sorry about the advice to take someone to a timeshare presentation as an experiment... not very cool. *sorry*

My thinking just was, if you don't feel like manipulating them out of it, or don't know how, then let some other people do it for you.
Like the timeshare guys... I mean, who cares what the content is, they will try to manipulate, and that *might* run counter to the existing conditioning. This is super crappy advice, I know, don't listen to it... it is just a *bad* idea that I thought I'd throw out.

Probably, some really intense experiences, sexual, emotional, physical or otherwise, might *might* be helpful. My thinking was to show my boyfriend in a very tangible way the reality of the external world beyond himself... and beyond his control. My experience of being in a cult myself is that in the mental zombie state of working-doing programs-meditating-whatever I felt this odd kind of lazy bliss... but doing something intense such as playing basketball for a few hours in the hot sun would kind of shake me out of it, get the blood flowing, just moving my body for a while, feeling nature, etc, it gives you this kind of more down to earth sense of yourself. I really feel that in some ways that could be more beneficial than some kinds of counselling and conversation... Yeah, I hadn't wanted to mention this before, but I was actually in Siddha Yoga for years... long time coming down from that, I mean, I bought into that whole deception big time... really thought I was learning something, too. :o

In response to Corboy's point 1:-
"1) You're bombarded by phone calls at home if you try to leave the training before completing it"

In the USA there is a Federal Govt database called the "Do Not Call Me" db. If a person is worried about leaving LE and is concerned about being phone and/or email harassed, I would advise registering on this db. Last year it had 48million subscribers who's registration entitles them to protection form telemarking and others who use the phone or internet for one on one communication for marketing purposes. If a company, in this case Landmark, contacts a person registered on the db, the company is fined USD9,000 and the person contacted receives USD1,500 for their inconvienience.

I understand that the Australian Govt is establishing a similar facility soon.

In Europe, UK, Australia and New Zealand, (all these countries have similar privacy laws I believe modelled on the UK law), the advice is to write a formal letter to your residing LE Centre Management stating that under your country's presiding Privacy Act, (and quote the exact Act title), you request that your name be deleted from LE or other LGATs' db and under no circumstances are you to be contacted by any means or by any person from LE or their agents. - from personal experience, this method works.

I hope this practical advice helps those wishing to leave LE or those being harrassed.

Oz

Quote

I guess my point was, that the teachings and all that are very complex, and present all kinds of traps and tricks and seductions... but basically only if you are buying into it and involved.

Tricky,

I went to LF at the advice of who I thought was a physician, specifically because he said it would help with a medical problem that was not responding to medical treatment. I went in as a skeptic, remained a skeptic, was rather bored and let my mind wander so much that during the Seminar Series, I realized I had missed quite a bit. My Forum leader was so smarmy that I hated him and if he had said he had the cure for cancer, I would not have believed him. I was not buying into anything yet there are many concepts that have been quite difficult to shake. Additionally, I rode the emotional "rollercoaster" along with everyone else, even and I still don't know how that happened. I even realized I had been manipulated along with the crowd by Sunday afternoon and was amazed that it happened. I felt the high on Tuesday night, even though I knew the leader was crying crocodile tears and I thought he was a jerk, doing this every weekend to play on peoples' emotions.

On Wednesday morning, I called my sister and gushed some nonsense to her and she actually got scared, asked if I was okay. I sent an email to everyone in my address book saying that LE is not as controversial as everyone thinks it is, yet couldn't explain what they said that was so great a week later.

Did I buy into it? You bet, but not at a conscious level. It was in the aftermath and trying to figure out exactly what happened, what I could use from it, that I realized there was nothing there (which of course is the joke Landmark plays on its participants).

Perfect.

I didn't read anything mysterious in Guy's posts. I don't have anything to add on the winning formula (don't remember the 3 gears at all).

Hope,
well, what about the rollercoaster and the concepts that were hard to shake?