People are greatly impressed by open displays of wealth. Look at The Donald Trump. People LOVE they guy, because he shows off a bunch of expensive stuff, and advertisies his company on tv. After all, if he has money, then he must know what he's talking about, right?

Believe me, that stuff WORKS.
Tony Robbins ENTIRE SCHTICK is based on how much money, and stuff he has, and how he got it. Even though the stories he tells about it are so deceptive he could be sued over them. As a side note, Robbins released a cd about how all of his stories about himself are "teaching tales", and weren't necessarily true. I think he did that so he could not be sued for false representation. A real sick guy.

But anyway, the "average person" is TOTALLY IMPRESSED by money, fame, success, fancy stuff, good looks, etc.

Money talks, Bullsh*t walks....

Coz

Quote
Guy
Like moths to a flame...

Why is a celebrity a celebrity?
Why is an idol an idol?
Why would anyone care if the Wachowski brothers did the forum?

Misdirection is the foundation of prestidigitation.....and politics :D

Guy

Yeah, but study the pictures even closer. What looks like two women going jogging together, when studied, reveals details designed to convey specific insecurities. Instead of the pictures, the site could just have an intro such as:

"Well, now your twenty-something. Your single. You're not close with your family. You aren't dating much. You're income is average. You are average. You see yourself getting older. In the future you just see more of the same. You are worn down by the subtle hostility, prejudice and unkindness of people all around you. You are transitioning from a prolonged adolescence and find yourself in a cruel, adult world. You do not understand yourself. You do not understand the world. Life is hard. You see those first crows feet already and feel your biological clock ticking. You have no direction. You wish you were rich but you're not. You want to be powerful and dynamic but you feel stupid. Come be with us! You will be "transformed". Once you are transformed, you will dynamically communicate with others like yourself in this new way that you do not yet understand. You will be close with others here. You will have power, direction, charisma and will attain success and happiness in life, once you are transformed."

This is all spelled out quite clearly in pictures and a few quotes and hints on the site, even though the descriptions of the training and its goals are for the most part very vague. The one exception is the description of the forum curriculum, which is VERY well put together, and quite convincing, actually. It describes the forum in terms of the Hiedeggerrian and positivist concepts addressed in each segment (stories are stories, etc.) while not addressing any of the specific structure or technologies of "unfreezing and refreezing", group pressure manipulation, intimidation, hypnosis, marathon persuasion, etc. Very persuasive, very well done web site. Designed by real pros. They are still able to bring in recruits (off the web!) despite having more bad publicity than the moonies, the krisnas and the peoples church combined.

And just a note... I hope my criticisms/analyses of landmark forum don't seem too mean spirited. I just don't like landmark, I think that's what it is. The whole pressure-cooker timeshare marketing presentation combined with NLP combined with trance induction combined with half baked pop psychology and philosophy combined with Erhardian "tear you down to build you up" marketing training combined with mass marathon training groupthink dynamics... *uuuugh*

Yeah, I was kinda worried when my friends got involved in it... yeah, I did have to expend some energy to learn the landmark system and pull them out of it... they have since turned against it and actively discourage their friends within landmark from continuing involvement, and prevent non-landmark friends from going to guest nights, forums, etc. I mean, it's not much, I know.
My personal efforts have probably only taken about 10k out of landmark forum's pockets, but hey, my main concern was just my friends.

The "Beyond Hypnosis" video, which is available in Real format on the web was one of the things that really helped. When both of my friends watched that, they inititially told me repeatedly "landmark isn't like that" even though I taking the stance of "what are you talking about? This is just an interesting video." Days later, however, they both confided that the Dick Stuphen past life regression trance induction was EXACTLY like some of the things that occurred in landmark forum. They also saw similarities between the accounts the girls gave about induction into the moonies and landmark.

Basically, the format for bringing somebody out of it is this (if anybody else has any tips, please add):


1. don't break off communication or clash head on. They will feel like you are "taking away their possibilities" and "making them wrong" and making them feel bad if you do. They might even stop being your friend. (this can easily be remedied by suggesting the possibility of you doing the forum.)

2. Do things like build up their self esteem. This goes goes against the training in a very fundamental way, and weakens it. I've actually compiled a list of "The Sins and Heresies against Landmark". These are all principles which contradict key features of the teachings ("stories are stories", "you are just a machine", "you are responsible for all the bad things that every happened to you", "you are just an asshole", etc. etc.). Keep feeding these "heresies" indirectly to them... you will be able to map out when they shut you out, when they contradict you, when they argue with you.

3. Ask them to explain the landmark teachings to you, because you are interested in learning more and about personal transformation. You will probably find that you know WAY more about the actual teachings than they do by now. In fact, there is not much they will actually be able to tell you. You will find that they have seized EMOTIONALLY onto a few key moments in the training... something the forum leader said, a diagram, an exercise, something that made them cry... anyways, try to get them to talk about the teachings. Then show alternate viewpoints. Once they start to see that landmark isn't some mystical perfection or something, then they are really starting to thaw. Of course, you will find that their butts are REALLY frozen, so be a bit persistent in your thawing efforts.

4. Show them how the principles of landmark actually come from other sources (philosophy, psychology etc.)

5. Discredit the authority of landmark, and of forum leaders.

6. Secure concessions from them, even if seemingly trivial ("ok, I didn't cause my Dad to die when I was three" etc.)

7. Play landmark speech games with them, show them how silly it is (get in on all the "racket" jokes etc. This will make them start to feel annoyed with group members, who always play these word games.)

8. Get them involved outside landmark.

9. Show them that their possibilities extend far beyond landmark.

10. Show them that landmark is actually just a small marketing company, not a global, world transforming behemoth.

11. Print out articles about landmark, show them truth about Erhard, etc.

12. Be supportive and helpful to them. Remember, that the effects of landmark forum do begin to wear off fairly quickly.
Unless they are born Amway types, the initial enrollment thing will start to wear off within a week or so. Also, don't wear them out with landmark stuff. Be real with them in your life.

13. Now that they are suddenly so interested in philosophy and pop psychology, take the opportunity to show them newer, truer and more exciting paths and possibilities.



Anyways, I hope this is helpful to some people. I guess I shouldn't be THAT annoyed at landmark... even though they did lay some real guilt trips on my friends. Landmark is just doing its thing, I guess. I mean, after all, they gotta eat, right? In general, it is enough for me that I can prove the landmark ideology and core beliefs to be false, as in, not true. I don't have time right now, but I will probably itemize the absurdities, fallacies and inconsistencies in their teachings at some point. As always, anybody who believes that landmark philosophy somehow has truth to it, etc. etc. is welcome to post. I may actually take a forum at some point, just to kind of mess with some heads and watch the show... although *jeez* I will have to miss some sessions, because that is just too long to sit for.

Tricky,

That was hilarious!
ROFLMAO
:D:D:D:D
4big smiley award!

Guy

Quote
tricky
"Well, now your twenty-something. Your single. You're not close with your family. You aren't dating much. You're income is average. You are average. You see yourself getting older. In the future you just see more of the same. You are worn down by the subtle hostility, prejudice and unkindness of people all around you. You are transitioning from a prolonged adolescence and find yourself in a cruel, adult world. You do not understand yourself. You do not understand the world. Life is hard. You see those first crows feet already and feel your biological clock ticking. You have no direction. You wish you were rich but you're not. You want to be powerful and dynamic but you feel stupid. Come be with us! You will be "transformed". Once you are transformed, you will dynamically communicate with others like yourself in this new way that you do not yet understand. You will be close with others here. You will have power, direction, charisma and will attain success and happiness in life, once you are transformed."

Werner is eating in the Cayman's. Perhaps you'd care to join him?:D

Marching armies have to eat....termites have to eat....flesh-eating bacteria has to eat....

Tricky,
Your posts are all over the map....sometimes you say something incredibly insightful and downright hilarious...and then you say things like "Landmark is just doing it's thing.....they gotta eat..." a funny little justification and something intimating that Werner is unaware of his creature.
Let me assure you...he knows what he created. Down to the bone.

At first few posts you are asking questions...a couple of weeks later, you know all the answers and are offering advice for the lovelorn.

At first it's a friend that has done the Forum and AC...later it's your boyfriend and other friends...

So just clue me in a little...what gives?
Curious minds want to know.

BTW....did You ask your boyfriend about his winning formula?

Guy

Quote
tricky
And just a note... I hope my criticisms/analyses of landmark forum don't seem too mean spirited.

<major snip>:D

Landmark is just doing its thing, I guess. I mean, after all, they gotta eat, right? In general, it is enough for me that I can prove the landmark ideology and core beliefs to be false, as in, not true.

Guy,
Yeah, I know I can be "all over the map" sometimes... that is just how I am. I tend to see both sides of situations and explore contradictions. In my view, these types of contradictions are sometimes the weakpoints in ideologies/systems. Not that I am an expert or something... I didn't mean to give that impression.

ok, here is "what gives":

1. first it was my friend, and then my boyfriend, but not me. :)

2. then I posted here, thinking I knew exactly what I wanted to learn, but no one really wanted to answer my posts with any good info, it seemed, so I tried to at least share a bit about what I had learned (not much) just to contribute.

3. I did more research, learned a lot about landmark's system, and made progress with my friends. One book I would HIGHLY recommend for understanding this phenomenon is "Group Psychology and the analysis of the Ego" by Sigmund Freud. It is only about 100 pages, and is a fascinating, page turning read... especially if you've got someone in landmark, believe me. "Frood-dude" breaks down the entire dynamic in a way that is almost infinitely insightful... and obviously, Erhard's system was based in Frood-dude's work, either directly or indirectly (probably just borrowed from other's who had studied it, etc.)

4. My friends got out of landmark involvement

5. I still felt like analysing landmark more in this forum environment...

6. I still felt like a few tips would be helpful... although I can be long-winded at times...

7. The remark about "they gotta eat" was kind of a backhand slap, y'know? Because I really have no respect for landmark, whatsoever. I have complete disdain for them. They remind me of salesmen. They are salesmen, and in fact their founder was a salesman. The irony is that people who do the programs buy into this idea that there is a "landmark world" and a "landmark society" and this global power thing, and this mystical component almost... like people are kind of scared of landmark. Almost like if you don't do landmark anymore, you're life might self destruct, etc. Also I think the milieu control kind of creates this feeling that they are everywhere and they have power etc. But the fact is, that we are not talking about spiritual geniuses here. We are talking about pitchmen, they are doing their thing, "they gotta eat", they gotta make a living. Of course, while there is no law against them doing what they do, technically, still they are scumbags. Landmark is NOT the kind of business that would put a big sign out front saying "Landmark education, training for a Better Tomorrow" or something. They are TOTALLY fly by night... if you're inside it you don't realize that. Landmark is nothing, except what they can persuade you to think they are. Same with their teachings. I think that is the breakthrough that people are looking for...

I haven't asked about the winning formula yet... any more info about its significance would be MUCH appreciated, that is very cool... thanks again for responding! And sorry if I seemed somewhat paradoxical...

(6)

I just finished the landmark Forum a few weeks ago, and this week I had a HUGE BREAKTHROUGH!:D

Getting back to the subject -- our Forum Leader, some pompous guy named "Scott" did happen to mention early on that the Brothers based their Matrix films on Landmark concepts. Never having seen the films myself, I was only mildly impressed with this bit of film trivia. Now this knowledge makes it very unlikely I'd bother to rent the films. Who cares? After the weekend propaganda-fest, and dutifully sitting through several of the follow-up seminars, I've had it up to here with the Forum.

My "breakthrough" involved getting my seminar leader so wound up she had what I can only describe as a meltdown. Started by attempting to describe to her what affects the "Hard Sell" was having on me and my (admittedly half-hearted!) efforts at "enrollment". Most of my friends have already been thoroughly soured on anything Landmark by a mutual acquaintance. This person NEVER shuts up about it. No point in going there! My SL scolded me for not "getting off" my "Racket" and I was "uncoachable" and didn't I want to be "coached"? I persisted in telling her what negative effects were occurring from the badgering of "new recruits" and prospects for the advanced course (that would be me).;)

To make a long story short, I would not admit to being either wrong or coachable, she ended up shouting, nose to nose with me, "You come in here and show me disrespect!" My response:
"What, are you some kind of queen or something?"
"I'm giving you MY LIFE and you don't even appreciate it! Every night you come in here and just FLIP ME OFF!" (She used the gesture to finish the thought, not the words...)

It was the most fun I've had in ages. Worth the cost of the Forum to get the goat of one of these people. I recommend it!:D

yeah, f*** them. It's like arguing with jehova witnesses

Tricky says,
"when I asked my friends about what actually happened at the forum, and they basically didn't know/remember and/or were under some kind of instruction NOT to say anything about it (I think it was both, they did tell me more at some point, but still don't remember much) anyways when I asked them about the forum experience, their big comeback was "We need to watch The Matrix together, then you will understand everything. The Forum is like the Matrix, and waking up to a whole new world."

I had this same experience with my normally "normal" but now easily agitated girlfriend since she got back from the Forum last week.

She would NOT tell me what the underlying principle/big secret/blah, blah was and she actually started screaming at me when I said everything can be put into words, yes, even Love, Dancing, String theory, THE LANDMARK FORUM!!! She NEVER screams at me.

What's this big freakin' secret? Why can't I be TOLD this big Freakin' secret?

These people are tickin' me off.

I went to the Tuesday night sales pitch and heard stories from the "plants", saw the Born-again/Scientologist looking "volunteers" walking around like they were playing defense in the halls.

Why doesn't the general public hear more about the dangerous tactics they're employeeing on people?

Keepitup, your post is very highly exactly descriptive.

[KeepitUp says]:

>>I had this same experience with my normally "normal" but now >>easily agitated girlfriend since she got back from the Forum >>last week.

>>She would NOT tell me what the underlying principle/big >>secret/blah, blah was and she actually started screaming at
>>me when I said everything can be put into words, yes, even
>>Love, Dancing, String theory, THE LANDMARK FORUM!!! She >>NEVER screams at me.


My "normal" boyfriend definitely got "easily agitated", I definitely experienced that. Especially in the early stages, it was startling.
He would have these highs and lows emotionally... and like you said, when I really pressed him to tell me about the forum, he kind of freaked out. It's like I was pressuring him to reveal his secret vow to Tutankamen or something... and he could play it off, be charming, be "enrolling", be "for" our relationship, play various word games... but when I just got down to it and said "tell me what the f*** the forum is all about" he just freaked out like I had cornered him and now he'd rather die than reveal his sacred teaching. Later, when he came clean, the big revelation from him was that "the forum is all about that we are machines, and that life is meaningless." Him telling me this seemed to be some kind of catharsis for him... it's almost like the "teaching" was somehow imbedded with some kind of conditioning that had him "locked in" mentally somehow... almost like he was afraid to betray it or something... part of that I'm sure is that he felt that if he violated the rules, then he'd lose some bliss or something, or his "possibilities." There is almost just no end to it, y'know? The number of mind games they can play in 36 hours... like it starts with heavy committment stuff when you first get there.

1. leave or stay
2. are you committed to change?
3. here's the forum rules
4. accept and commit to the forum rules
5. find your commitment to the forum and
your intention and goals
6. express that commitment and intention to the group, or
to people in the group
7. put it in writing

and that is just the first couple hours. You've been there two
hours, and now, how can you just walk out at that point, you've
basically "made a stand" in front of everybody to do this thing.
And then the training, and on and on... and every time you are putting this in writing and turning it in or reading it to the group you're committing to it more and more. And this is just one aspect of what is going on, their use of commitment and consistency.

I really felt like, building up his self esteem was super helpful... Landmark's process all seems to be built up on the ideas that we were crappy and selfish as children and that we brought upon ourselves everything bad in our lives. When you make the effort to alter their self image in opposite ways "wow, what I really like about you is you are such a strong person, you really like to think for yourself and not follow the herd" or "wow, you're parents really loved you" and stuff like that, incredibly, that seems to DIRECTLY undermine the landmark conditioning. By placing them in this analytical, transformative arena Landmark has kind of taken away all that person's support and frame of reference, and I'm sure that life maybe looks pretty stupid and meaningless from that vantage point, and then all you have to hang onto is this transformational process, and they're giving it to you as fast as you can learn it or faster.

I think those "landmark tantrums" are really like a stage in their waking up... sort of like a realization that this circular ideology that they've embraced is not something that everybody else will just embrace also... my experience is that in that state they are VERY subconscious...

here is an example of a conversation I had with a close friend right after the forum:


Me: "But how can you let that forum leader tell you to transform your entire life? How can you just commit your entire life and change everything, when you didn't even know who that person was or know ANYTHING about that person four days ago?"

Her: "Well, I could just tell you, that YOU DON'T KNOW YOUR ASS FROM A WHOLE IN THE GROUND."

Me: "What?!? Where is that coming from? Did that f***ing forum leader actually tell you that?!?"

Her: "Yes, so what?"

Me: "jeeeez, do you realize that you are highly educated? that you've been so successful? That you have all these things going for you? That you are envied and have accomplished so much, and have so much heart and integrity? How can you let some timeshare salesman jerk just tell you that?"

Her: " [sob] I don't know I don't know I don't know [sob] I just don't know. I've tried so hard [sob] I really wanted to you to [sob] I really need you to [sob] support me in [sob] my possibilities [sob] I just don't know...."

Me: "you don't know what?"

Her: [sob] maybe I just don't know if I can continue to be [sob] your friend. This [sob] means so much to me [sob] and I feel like [sob] you're hurting me you're hurting my possibilities [sob] I just don't know anymore [sob sob sob]."

Me: "hey, HEY c'mon... relax. I'm on YOUR side, y'know? Look, I've been doing some reading, and I know I'm resistant, but maybe it's something that I can get into when I know more about it, y'know? I just get freaked because it seems you've changed...
this is really one of my rackets, y'know?"

Her: "yeah. [sniff]"

Me: "Look, maybe the forum might be good for me someday, but right now, I just want to be your friend, and learn more about it.
You've been such a good friend. Maybe I could even go to a guest night someday."

Her: "[sniff] yeah?"

Me: "yeah yeah, this is just my racket, and y'know I have all these f***ed up things in my past... I mean, you know me."

Her: "[sniff] ok. Hey, I was making dinner plans for us all on Thursday, what do you say we try the..." [and then she just transitions as if this incredibly intense emotional crisis never even occurred]


All the craziness does go away, it just takes time.