Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:02AM
Good evening,
I did a set of these LGAT trainings (now almost two years ago) here in South Africa.
I went in with a history of mental institutions, psychologists and psychiatrists. This was, as I saw it, my last hope. If this did not work, I was prepared to kill myself and take myself out of the misery I experienced then.
Having gone through the process of the first workshop, and having experienced a total break and at the same time a turning point in my life (ie: the trainer said we must dance. I did not want to, for reasons such as I am shy, i am not pretty enough, etc. I realized that that's how I conduct my life. If I didn't want to do something, I just didn't do it and made excuses to justify my behavior.)
From the second workshop, i walked away scarred for months by an experience where I am guided into a meditation of sorts. The meditation leads me to want to go on a boat trip, the boat goes under and there isn't enough life boats to save every one on board. Long story short, only three people are chosen to go on the life boat, and we as the rest on the boat, are to give messages to the three on the life boat to give to our loved ones waiting on shore. It is structured such that there isn't enough time for every single person in the group to give a message, leaving some of the people (like me) without a message going back to shore).
I am still a little messed up from this experience, so much so, I refuse to take a boat trip of any kind.
On the other hand, i know this is a forum to discuss cults. When I finished the second workshop, even with the damage in my brain, I did not look upon the centre as a cult. I knew, going in, that the people who gave the workshops were not psychologists and it actually made me feel better.
I have learned SO much from those days on the workshop that my life has changed. Completely.
And I am not advocating that anyone do these workshops. It is a choice. I found out about it. I investigated it and it was about two years after I found out about it that i signed up to do it. And i have not looked back a day since.
I understand that for some people it just does not work. For me, I did my research. Two years worth of research. I visited the centre the workshops were held at. I asked questions, bought books.
I was not fooled into anything and I am very firmly aware that i was NOT brainwashed but merely shown a different way to live. It was my choice all along to walk away from the insanity and mental trouble in my past (walk away from the things that obviously did not work) and try something new.
I did a set of these LGAT trainings (now almost two years ago) here in South Africa.
I went in with a history of mental institutions, psychologists and psychiatrists. This was, as I saw it, my last hope. If this did not work, I was prepared to kill myself and take myself out of the misery I experienced then.
Having gone through the process of the first workshop, and having experienced a total break and at the same time a turning point in my life (ie: the trainer said we must dance. I did not want to, for reasons such as I am shy, i am not pretty enough, etc. I realized that that's how I conduct my life. If I didn't want to do something, I just didn't do it and made excuses to justify my behavior.)
From the second workshop, i walked away scarred for months by an experience where I am guided into a meditation of sorts. The meditation leads me to want to go on a boat trip, the boat goes under and there isn't enough life boats to save every one on board. Long story short, only three people are chosen to go on the life boat, and we as the rest on the boat, are to give messages to the three on the life boat to give to our loved ones waiting on shore. It is structured such that there isn't enough time for every single person in the group to give a message, leaving some of the people (like me) without a message going back to shore).
I am still a little messed up from this experience, so much so, I refuse to take a boat trip of any kind.
On the other hand, i know this is a forum to discuss cults. When I finished the second workshop, even with the damage in my brain, I did not look upon the centre as a cult. I knew, going in, that the people who gave the workshops were not psychologists and it actually made me feel better.
I have learned SO much from those days on the workshop that my life has changed. Completely.
And I am not advocating that anyone do these workshops. It is a choice. I found out about it. I investigated it and it was about two years after I found out about it that i signed up to do it. And i have not looked back a day since.
I understand that for some people it just does not work. For me, I did my research. Two years worth of research. I visited the centre the workshops were held at. I asked questions, bought books.
I was not fooled into anything and I am very firmly aware that i was NOT brainwashed but merely shown a different way to live. It was my choice all along to walk away from the insanity and mental trouble in my past (walk away from the things that obviously did not work) and try something new.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:09AM
Shy:
Take the time to read this thread completely.
Note all the links and research material.
LGATs have a long history of serious problems and have hurt many people.
Of course no one thinks they have been "brainwashed," but quite frankly many LGATs can be seen as thought reform or "brainwashing" programs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the liabilities listed in this research paper about LGATs aka "mass marathon training."
# They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
# They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
# They lack clearly defined responsibility.
# They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
# They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
# They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
# They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
# They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
# They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
# They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
# They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
# They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
# They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
Also note the danger signs--
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Many of techniques cited within this research paper concerning "coercive persuasion" can be seen within LGATs.
Take the time to read this thread completely.
Note all the links and research material.
LGATs have a long history of serious problems and have hurt many people.
Of course no one thinks they have been "brainwashed," but quite frankly many LGATs can be seen as thought reform or "brainwashing" programs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the liabilities listed in this research paper about LGATs aka "mass marathon training."
# They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
# They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
# They lack clearly defined responsibility.
# They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
# They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
# They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
# They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
# They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
# They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
# They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
# They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
# They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
# They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
Also note the danger signs--
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Many of techniques cited within this research paper concerning "coercive persuasion" can be seen within LGATs.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:19AM
Quote
rrmoderator
Shy:
Take the time to read this thread completely.
Note all the links and research material.
LGATs have a long history of serious problems and have hurt many people.
Of course no one thinks they have been "brainwashed," but quite frankly many LGATs can be seen as thought reform or "brainwashing" programs.
See [www.culteducation.com]
Note the liabilities listed in this research paper about LGATs aka "mass marathon training."
# They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.
# They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.
# They lack clearly defined responsibility.
# They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.
# They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.
# They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.
# They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.
# They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.
# They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.
# They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.
# They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.
# They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.
# They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.
Also note the danger signs--
1. Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.
2. Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.
3. Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.
4. Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."
See [www.culteducation.com]
Many of techniques cited within this research paper concerning "coercive persuasion" can be seen within LGATs.
Altho this may be true for many LGAT's and may be inline with most experiences on this forum of members who attended LGAT's. It surely isn't in line with mine. Now i am not sticking up for the workshops i did here, i also know of people who did the same workshops and were more or equally damaged afterward, i am just saying I was not one of them.
I was affected, but in a way that changed my life for the better.
I am on no medication where previously i was sedated most of the time, locked away in a small padded room in an asylum. I think it is a major feat that these workshops have accomplished for me. I am a better person. and not because i was brainwashed (and even if i was, would it be so bad to live in a world where there is only good?)
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:23AM
@ mangwanya: What exactly was your experience with Turning Point/ Baruch Banai / Insight Training Centre?
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:30AM
@ SaneAgain
Hi,
[ And yes, I do tell everyone that you get to strip down to your underwear and ask everyone whether they think you are sexy or not. And that that is about the least invasive of the activities - So - yes, I tell everyone as much as I can to put them off going. It is a bit like "making a difference" and "giving something back to the world" - all the people I keep off Quest to make up for all those I got onto Quest, and who had their lives fucked up beyond all recognition. ]
I did one of these LGAT's like two years ago. I've been told time and again the Insight Training Centre, led by Baruch/Royee Banai, is the same as Quest. Yet we never got stripped down to our underwear. We had costumes. And having been overweight, i felt nervous to stand before these strangers and get them to judge my body. But i walked out of there, laughing, feeling it's not so bad. So i'm fat. And other people saw it. And?
Hi,
[ And yes, I do tell everyone that you get to strip down to your underwear and ask everyone whether they think you are sexy or not. And that that is about the least invasive of the activities - So - yes, I tell everyone as much as I can to put them off going. It is a bit like "making a difference" and "giving something back to the world" - all the people I keep off Quest to make up for all those I got onto Quest, and who had their lives fucked up beyond all recognition. ]
I did one of these LGAT's like two years ago. I've been told time and again the Insight Training Centre, led by Baruch/Royee Banai, is the same as Quest. Yet we never got stripped down to our underwear. We had costumes. And having been overweight, i felt nervous to stand before these strangers and get them to judge my body. But i walked out of there, laughing, feeling it's not so bad. So i'm fat. And other people saw it. And?
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 23, 2010 01:32AM
Shy:
That's a fairly typical response, i.e. "it surely isn't in line with mine."
Are you sure about that?
You seem very quick to dismiss anything critical about LGATs when it comes to your "experience."
What educational or licensing requirements does your LGAT expect from its leaders?
Is the LGAT somehow accountable through a licensing board?
Is the LGAT accredited as an educational institution?
What objectively measurable results have been found through a peer-reviewed and published study?
Has one ever been done regarding your LGAT?
That's a fairly typical response, i.e. "it surely isn't in line with mine."
Are you sure about that?
You seem very quick to dismiss anything critical about LGATs when it comes to your "experience."
What educational or licensing requirements does your LGAT expect from its leaders?
Is the LGAT somehow accountable through a licensing board?
Is the LGAT accredited as an educational institution?
What objectively measurable results have been found through a peer-reviewed and published study?
Has one ever been done regarding your LGAT?
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Shy
()
Date: September 23, 2010 02:45AM
There has been no study as far as I am aware. Altho, i must say, the Trainer has release alot of books on various topics involved in his workshops. Many (if not all) have a million studies (with published and verified results) as proof for an argument. Please visit [www.insighttc.org] to see what i am talking about.Quote
rrmoderator
Shy:
That's a fairly typical response, i.e. "it surely isn't in line with mine." I understand that it is a very typical response. As i said, i'm not here to defend the workshops i did (whether they're good or bad). I am here to express the result of these workshops. I was never told not to talk about what goes on inside the workshops. Thing is tho, and this is just logic, if i tell everyone who asks what goes on inside, they will not "benefit as i have" from the workshops. And bear in mind, i went in with a choice already made. Not very open minded and very very stubborn.
Are you sure about that? I am not here to defend the institution i did the workshops at. I am merely testifying that it has worked wonders for me and that if were to make the choice again, i would make the same choice.
You seem very quick to dismiss anything critical about LGATs when it comes to your "experience." It's not that i am dismissing anything critical to my experience, BUT my experience is mine alone. I experienced it. I cannot make someone else experience my experience (and see this as cult jargon or Quest speak if you want). Fact is, getting involved with this LGAT has changed my life, FOR THE BETTER. And getting involved with this LGAT has never led to being forced, convinced or recruited to do anything. I personally want to go and assist on these workshops because they changed my life and i would like to learn more, learn again, reinforce what i have learned.
What educational or licensing requirements does your LGAT expect from its leaders? there is no expectation of educational requirements. Again, this did not matter to me. I have been locked up before, been to shrinks before and it just got me more insane. If i knew, at any point during my two year period of research into my chosen LGAT that any of the trainers were qualified shrinks, i would not have gone. I detest the institution of Psychology and Psychiatry because it has not worked for me and it has damaged me. JUST LIKE many people on this forum detest whatever LGAT they got involved in because it did not work for them and has left them damaged.
Is the LGAT somehow accountable through a licensing board? No it is not. I agree with this (and may i sound like a LGAT graduate here >>>) because we are all responsible for our selves. And besides, i firmly believe insanity/mental damage is a mechanism that allows the ego to hide and protect itself.
Is the LGAT accredited as an educational institution? As i said above, it is not.
What objectively measurable results have been found through a peer-reviewed and published study? There has not been a peer reviewed study. reason, again, from my side, simply because, as people who are supposed to be self confident (as ALL SELF HELP BOOKS PROCLAIM) one has to not care what others think. Image for a second you have a product, and upon selling it you have no confidence that it will work/benefit anyone, would you still sell the same number of products as when you are confident it is good and will benefit a large number of people?
Has one ever been done regarding your LGAT?
Again, my opinion is that is has worked for me. I knew going in that it might not. I knew going in that it might f*ck me up more. I was afraid going in. But it was also my last resort. And if i was to make the choice again, i would make the same choice. a million times over.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
rrmoderator
()
Date: September 23, 2010 04:53AM
Shy:
As you admit "there has been no study..."
LGATs rely instead upon anecdotal evidence, i.e. testimonials from participants extolling their "experience," which is subjective.
There is no objective "proof" of any meaningful measurable results, e.g. higher grades in school, lower divorce rate, increased income, etc.
A scientific study would focus upon such objectively measurable results that can be seen after one, two, three years or more that occur after the training, and measure that against a control group that had not done the training.
No LGAT has ever done such a scientific study, which has been peer-reviewed and published within a credible journal, that I am aware.
Yet it seems that many LGATs have the money to easily fund such a study.
I suspect that they don't sponsor a study because they know that the only results they actually produce through their training is subjective and therefore not objectively measurable.
Nevertheless they frequently make fantastic claims regarding results.
They key to understanding what LGATs actually do is through understanding the process of coercive persuasion to gain undue influence.
LGATs are quite adept when it comes to this, i.e. they can persuade people through persuasion techniques that they have received fantastic results.
They guide participants through a process that influences their feelings and then shape the experience.
As you admit "there has been no study..."
LGATs rely instead upon anecdotal evidence, i.e. testimonials from participants extolling their "experience," which is subjective.
There is no objective "proof" of any meaningful measurable results, e.g. higher grades in school, lower divorce rate, increased income, etc.
A scientific study would focus upon such objectively measurable results that can be seen after one, two, three years or more that occur after the training, and measure that against a control group that had not done the training.
No LGAT has ever done such a scientific study, which has been peer-reviewed and published within a credible journal, that I am aware.
Yet it seems that many LGATs have the money to easily fund such a study.
I suspect that they don't sponsor a study because they know that the only results they actually produce through their training is subjective and therefore not objectively measurable.
Nevertheless they frequently make fantastic claims regarding results.
They key to understanding what LGATs actually do is through understanding the process of coercive persuasion to gain undue influence.
LGATs are quite adept when it comes to this, i.e. they can persuade people through persuasion techniques that they have received fantastic results.
They guide participants through a process that influences their feelings and then shape the experience.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Sane Again
()
Date: September 23, 2010 07:08PM
Quote
Shy
@ SaneAgain
Hi,
[ ]
I did one of these LGAT's like two years ago. I've been told time and again the Insight Training Centre, led by Baruch/Royee Banai, is the same as Quest. Yet we never got stripped down to our underwear. We had costumes. And having been overweight, i felt nervous to stand before these strangers and get them to judge my body. But i walked out of there, laughing, feeling it's not so bad. So i'm fat. And other people saw it. And?
Hi Shy,
And nothing really. There is nothing wrong with being fat, or with other people seeing you are fat, if you want them to see you.
My body is not bad - but it is mine and it is private. I don't like being pressured and tricked into parading it in front of strangers.
And that applies to all the exercises, not only showing my body.
I don't think there is anything wrong with being shy either, or being mad, or not wanting to dance - or anything wrong with being the life of the party, or dead centre normal, or dancing all day and night. If those things are your nature. It is when they are bludgeoned and hugged into you, against your will, covertly, for cheap profit - that is the problem.
I am happy you lost your madness. Without your sanity, all the other things (shy, fat, dancing, whatever) become irrelevant. Your sanity is the essential element that makes everything else in life possible or impossible. So it is the most valuable aspect of a person and not something to be taken lightly.
I am happy for you that you lost your madness somewhere along the way with insight training. However... if I may be a little dramatic in print:
The mind is a mystery.
For that very reason, people without the slightest clue about the mind should not be strutting around, making a profit by bludgeoning and hugging other people's minds into a shape that fits their purpose - making the person into a walking, talking, dancing advert for their business.
It is a gamble that they make a big profit out of. And they do not take responsibility when the gamble goes the wrong way.
You got lucky. I didn't. Either way, they made their profit.
As for whether Insight and Quest Seminars are the same...
Wendy and Buster were trained by Baruch and the courses they do are essentially the same - maybe one or two differences - a costume here, a different process left out or added - but they are basically the same.
Buster and Baruch only disown each other to avoid the additional scandal each one causes.
I am happy for you that things turned out well for you. I know it is very painful having severe forms of madness.
I hope you - only for pleasure - examine the language they have taught you (those NLP key words) because your own personal, specific and poetic words are far more unique and valuable, than those cliches they've given you. You sound like an interesting person ... in your own language. I hope everything goes well for you.
Re: Quest (Johannesburg South Africa)
Posted by:
Sane Again
()
Date: September 23, 2010 07:33PM
Quest Seminars has a new web site where they go to great lengths to explain that they are not a cult.
And a section explaining that they are not psychologists but they have a psychologist who recommends quest.
I wonder how long her license will last. I wonder how much profit she makes picking up all the broken pieces of quest "graduates". I wonder whether she is really fooled or just scavenging.
I wonder whether she would be willing to do a proper study on Quest - a scientifically and academically valid one - and publish her results.
Maybe she is not aware of how quest 'pushed her buttons'. Or that she has lost the ability to speak English instead of Quest Cliche.
And a section explaining that they are not psychologists but they have a psychologist who recommends quest.
I wonder how long her license will last. I wonder how much profit she makes picking up all the broken pieces of quest "graduates". I wonder whether she is really fooled or just scavenging.
I wonder whether she would be willing to do a proper study on Quest - a scientifically and academically valid one - and publish her results.
Quote
Quest website
Here is what a Johannesburg based Psychologist says about Quest:
“I am a psychologist in private practice in Linden, Johannesburg. I refer my clients for many different experiences and workshops to speed up their emotional development. I have referred many clients to Quest for the past six years. I find that it is a brilliant way for my clients to become aware of any limiting or destructive perceptions about ‘how people are’ or ‘how life works’ that they might have and get a chance to challenge those perceptions in a group environment. Quest usually pushes some buttons for my clients and when they return to therapy after Quest, they work through their challenges faster and more efficiently. Quest tends to bring suppressed emotions to the surface and make them easier for me to work with, and I use my clients’ experiences during Quest to leverage rapid and congruent change for them. I highly recommend Quest for anyone wishing to create change in their life.
Dr Janne Dannerup. www.jmdpsych.com
Maybe she is not aware of how quest 'pushed her buttons'. Or that she has lost the ability to speak English instead of Quest Cliche.
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