All--

I'd be grateful for some thoughts on whether it is possible to date someone who has been to both the forum and the advanced course.

Background: I've recently "met" (virtually) someone who I'm interested in dating. Having read a variety of materials both on this forum and on Rick's site, I'd like to be cautious but not paranoid. I've never been to any LEC events and have no interest in them. Obviously if she starts the "you've gotta GO to REALLY understand..." thing, I'll advance in a different direction, as the infantry puts it...

I've graduated from a variety of some of the hardest Army schools that exist (Ranger school, SFAS, sniper, airborne, air assault, etc., not to mention the first Gulf war), some of which sound rather like a cross between LGAT and highly persuasive sales techniques. I'm also a law student and have an embarrassingly high iq score and have, I think, a very sensitive bs detector. Finally, I've got a degree in philosophy and LOL at what they pass off as 'philosophy.' So I'm reasonably confident I'll see something coming in a one-on-one setting.

I suppose my bottom line question is this: is forewarned really forearmed in a one on one setting? I'd appreciate your thoughts, and apologies to all if this isn't appropo...

Best,

Auto

Careful Aftp, lust/love can trump any bs detector.;)

I remember women at LEC figuring out how they were going to get their dates/boyfriends/husbands to do the forum. It was not a pretty sight.

If you resist there may be bitter struggle.

Remember you were trained to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft before now....:D :p :D

Good luck in whatever you choose.

Just my opinion, but if she is, what they call "in thrall," you won't be able to have a normal conversation with her, have a normal relationship with her, or trust her in any implicit way. If she took the training to heart, and to get as far as the "Advanced" course, she must have, to some degree, she probably won't be much of a companion unless you do the courses as well. Landmark is designed to alienate friends or family who won't join up, so that the person involved becomes more and more dependent on the group to fill the void left when they've become estranged from those important to them. There are lots of relationship "casualties" among people who thought they had very secure bonds when one or the other gets involved with Landmark. Furthermore, if you've only know her after her Landmark involvement, you don't really know her. Her personality has been altered.


Among other damage, Landmark sews seeds of unrealistic "possibilities," causing those prone to depression to become more depressed. It sets them up for disappointment so they keep returning for another "fix" like a drug addict. It feeds those prone to fantasizing a better life for themselves. It panders to egos and to vanity.

It also teaches people to lie. They call it "creating your own reality."


Just a thought.....If you're so intelligent, why are you asking this question?? ; )



Ellen

My first response was "what are you thinking?" :D

But it all depends on how involved she is. If it's already come up in conversation, my guess is lots.

Coming from my experience, there are things that happen to people in an LGAT that make them believe that anyone who hasn't gone to one is somehow lesser than they. This isn't some mild thing either, it's pretty hard core.

My sig. other came home from his and immediately said that if I didn't go he would not promise he wouldn't leave me. Ours was a long term, solid, co-habitating relationship with no serious issues prior to this. His indoctronation was so strong that he only wanted to associate with other people who'd "gone". I've seen the same thing in several other people too.

Guy posted on another thread about how LGATS "teach" people to objectify others. They tell you that you create your own reality, therefore the people in your life are there for you to use as you see fit. Don't know about you, but that's not something I would ever choose for myself.

Also, keep in mind the recruiting pressure everyone talks about. I'm sure if this person is still heavily involved in LEC, she would get a nice pat on the head for bringing in new meat. Perhaps she is trolling the web for recruits. If she were actually looking for a relationship, doesn't LEC have it's own dating service now?

Hi Auto,

I have just lost my girlfriend because of LEC. She is the love of my life. Her values and beliefs were transformed into LEC beliefs and values. She refers to our time together as "History" and she has "delt with the past" and "moved on". My experience is consistant with all that I have read. I have lost her because her head and heart were altered through very powerful techniques employed by LEC. Although she has now made the move out of LEC after 11 weeks, completeing The Forum, Forum In Action & Advanced Courses, professionals have told me it will take her from a couple of months to up to 2 years before she is able to balance her original beliefs and values and her care for other people with the LEC experience. I believe that once a person makes a move out of LEC, 80% return back to their former selves with a balanced view of the experience though the path is very rocky.

The bottom line is that LEC is a temporary phase in most graduates lives. The effect can be massive and so can be the exiting and debreifing. Do you want to go on this journey?

I would recommend you go to [www.landmarkeducation.com] site and check out their dating search engine. Read a number of the profiles - their interests and their view etc. See if you can percieve a pattern of speak and thought. It is your choice.
Take care,
Oz

Another thought,

We have a friend of ours who is former military and is now an airline pilot. When my honey told him about Harmony and what they did to him, this guy told us about POW school in the Army. Did you ever do that? You get captured by a supposed enemy and held for several days while they try to extract some piece of information from you. My dad went through it in the Navy also.

Our friend said that POW school and LGATS use the exact same tactics, minus the direct physical abuse. He was absolutely shocked that people could get away with it.

Imagine going to POW school and loving it and asking to go back.

Werner Erhard and his clones are no different from any of the other megalomaniacal cult leaders who have gone before in their recognition of the value of using women to lure men into the "fold." Most religions use this to their advantage, like the proverbial dogcatcher using a female in heat. Mormons teach their women it is their "job" to keep their men corralled. L. Ron Hubbard sent out his pubescent females in their little sailor costumes. David Berg went so far as to call it "flirty fishing," or "hooking for Jesus." And when the Bhagwan needed a voting majority to take over the city council in Antelope, Oregon, he sent his girls to skid row Los Angeles with promises of "free love" to men willing to relocate and join the cult.


Ellen

All--

First, thanks to everyone who's responded. I greatly appreciate it! I think Elena said it best on the "Advanced Course" thread: "Very dangerous territory for rank amateurs to go mucking about in..." Exactly right!

We met last night, and enjoyed it. I mentioned I had done some research and decided LEC was not for me. When she started on what I now recognize was jargon, I was able to corner her into admitting Landmark is either just one way for a person to "transform" or, if it claims to be the ONLY way, the parallels with not only other cults but also with unpleasant historical occurrences (Holocaust, Boxer Rebellion, Stalin's purges, Alexander's destruction of Tyre, etc.) make it something to be avoided (to put it mildly!). Once forced into "choosing" the former, we were able to drop the subject and move onto more typical first date topics. (Ever on guard for hints...) Rather a pleasant evening.

At least it seemed so until I spoke with another woman. With her, the conversation was simply about work, life, family, goals, etc.--what I would characterize as much more normal. So we shall see...

Some specific answers--I did not attend the POW class, though I know folks who have. There is a similar, but longer, block of training contained within Ranger school, so I had some sense of it. GC--although I'm ordinarily not shy about claiming to be an exception, I also know discretion is the better part of valor. Elena--why ask? Fair question!

At the end of the day, I don't think I would put the woman in the "fanatic" category--she was able to put it to one side (at least temporarily) and carry on what appeared to be a perfectly normal conversation. She does appear to be dedicated to self-help--recommending "The Four Agreements." I, of course, then recommended she read "Nausea" by Sartre and "7 Habits" by Covey. Old sales trick--sell the salesperson....

Thanks again--if we go out again I'll post impressions.

Best,

Automatic....FTP

No one has said it better than "corboy" in her follwing posts which I've reprinted. (Also sent them over to afl to give those folks a laugh.)

Ellen



(From the thread "Considering the Forum??? June 2002)

____________________________________________________

You cannot empower people
by covertly manipulating them through use of trance.

Treating people as objects for manipulation does not empower them, no
matter how good the manipulation makes them feel.

Covert use of trance is like crack cocaine: they both do things to
your brain and CNS that make you feel good, but its not sustainable in
the very long run, and it happens at the cost of your full humanity.
The embezzlement of your humanity happens gradually so you do not at
first understand that you're being ripped off--the initial bliss hit
conceals all that.

Its just like a pickpocket smootching/snogging you, getting you all
horny and, while you are unaware of it, slipping your wallet out of
your back pocket.

-----

Landmark and other groups like it
are cardsharks who offer you a game of poker, but use a marked deck
without telling you.

When you're enticed into a game where the other guy is using a marked
deck, and you have not been told it is a marked deck, it is no longer
a game.

You may 'feel' like you're playing, you may have a great time with all
the charming company, well mixed drinks and general ambiance, but its
not a game. It is robbery and you're the one being robbed.

Landmark is the psychological equivalent of running a dishonest casino
with the decks marked and the dice loaded. You'll be given thrills.
You'll be made to feel good. But the nice people standing up and
telling moving stories of how their lives were transformed--they are
not for real. They are 'plants'--just as casinos often have
'shills'--employees who gamble-to sit at tables during slow periods
and make the place seem livlier than it is.

Again, you're dealing with hustlers who smootch you and kiss you and
swipe the wallet from your back pocket when you're not aware of it.

That's the spirit of Landmark.

Elena--

I did. (Catch the grin...)

;-)

Best,

Automatic....FTP