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SaneAgain
Every time you claim that you have scientific proof of christianity you are implying that Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, Buddhism, Taosm and a host of other religions as well as atheism are wrong. If you want to debate it, fine - but not on this thread. exImpact & co have enough problems trying to deal with the all the trolls and apologists here without having to waste time replying to your off-topic messages about your religion, as ex has just done.

Please follow Ricks rules, and stop this on your end as well.

I have agreed to disagree with Ricks stance on Faith vs. Science as he stated one is based on facts while the other is based on belief. I strongly disagree and will not remain on a forum so biased as this.

Since this is an impasse that will not be resolved. I have informed Rick that I will remove myself from this forum. There will be no need to be banned by him.

I have gained much from this forum as I have been recovering from my LGAT experience.

I will refer people to this site for information on LGAT’s while informing them of the biased stance on faith issues.

It has been a pleasure knowing you all. Have a nice life and may God richly bless each and everyone of you.

Good bye
Rswinters

Rswinters:

OK.

Sorry, but the Ross Institute is an educational nonprofit, not a religious nonprofit.

See [www.culteducation.com]

Also see [www.culteducation.com]

Note that the definition of a "cult" is based upon behavior not belief.

Also see [board.culteducation.com]

In bold black the rules for this board state explicitly, "The purpose of this forum is not to promote a specific religious or political viewpoint and/or to proselytize."

Members of this board may believe whatever they wish, but not preach about their beliefs here according to the rules.

It should come as no surprise that science is objective, based upon facts, whereas faith is subjective, based upon feelings.

Sorry to have this discussion on this thread, as the topic here is not religion, faith vs. science etc., but rather an LGAT called "Impact."

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damagedbyassociation

My wife and I have discussed the impact of Impact quite a lot at this point (if you don't know or remember my story/background on this go to page 36). She has agreed that Impact was horrible, although at our first REAL counseling session with a REAL counselor, she was still touting all of the "good" that she got from Impact, which infuriated me because when we were talking together about it earlier, she had been telling me how bad it all was with a new perspective and with deep retrospect. It has been helpful for me to get her to read many of your posts - at least the ones that stick to Impact. I don't know if I can totally believe her when she sings the same old tune and tells me again that Impact was horrible after lots and lots of talking about it, which is why I ask her to read some of these posts with me.

Hi Damaged,
Thanks for the update, I'm so relieved that things have been progressing in the right direction. I'm sure it's been a frustrating journey for both of you. If there's anything you'd like to talk about here that would help, [i:00859fba2e]please[/i:00859fba2e] don't hesitate. Are things continuing to get better?

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damagedbyassociation

On that note, acknowledging that I'm not moderating this forum, I would like to comment that a lot of communications that are posted here are bickerings about what other members are saying, as if we can't be understanding enough to give another member the benefit of the doubt, or we WANT to be quick to judge them (harshly) which dilutes the power and significance of this forum for me. I almost fear posting my own thoughts and feelings sometimes because I'm afraid I'll come under attack/criticism from someone because they don't like or totally agree with what I might say. Is it so easy to forget the Golden Rule after going through an LGAT?

I've been thinking a lot about what you said in your last paragraph. These are my thoughts on the subject:
First, I want anyone reading this to know, that I am generally a soft-spoken person. I'm shy, and although I don't always succeed, I try very, very hard to be nice. I'm generally laid back, and I avoid conflict like the plague. I've been ripped off and conned before at various businesses, as a customer and employee. I've never demanded to "speak to someone's manager" when there's a problem. If I get the wrong things on my hamburger at a restaurant, I just pick off the things I don't like, and I don't make a fuss. It takes a lot to make me angry, and I'm not a vengeful person. Yet, here I am on message board ranting about a business called Impact Trainings. What's the difference? Why am I going so far out of my character? The differences are: I've never had to go to therapy as a result of any other business transaction, no other business or institution has ever damaged my confidence, self-esteem to this magnitude, how Impact treated me wasn't an accident or mistake on their part, and [i:00859fba2e]most of all[/i:00859fba2e] I am not the first or last person to be harmed by this establishment. It [i:00859fba2e]isn't[/i:00859fba2e] easy for me to read the posts here many times (it's emotionally exhausting sometimes), yet I continue to post here. Why? Obviously, Impact has the motives of money, power, etc, to continue to do what they do. However, I don't get paid for my time posting here, and I wouldn't get anything tangible if Impact were to be shut down. I'm here because I sincerely care about the welfare of my fellow human beings. I would feel very guilty if I didn't warn others. I want to prevent further suffering and although I may be overstepping here, I want to help others recover and deprogram. I know I'm going the long way around in replying to your post, but essentially all of that may explain some of the bickering.
In the past, I have singled out someone's view for discussion in the following situations:
-If I believe that they are "preaching" one of Impact's harmful doctrines. (This one could be seen as an attack on someone's personal beliefs if someone isn't familiar with Impact's philosophies, OR if someone believes Impact's doctrines themselves. Also Impact's teachings are often twisted truths, so it can be get "messy".)
-If I believe that someone, who is out of Impact and knows Impact is harmful, says something that signals to me that they are still under Impact's (or any other LGAT's) influence in one area or another I will point it out. (When this happens, I am honestly only trying to be helpful to that person's recovery.)
-If I feel that I am being attacked, someone is twisting my words, or someone is downplaying the harm that impact has done. (This is where it's hardest to not overreact.)
If it isn't any of the reasons above, and I still want to discuss something off subject, I'll PM the person.
Like I said before, I am a calm, nice person most of the time, but Impact has really hurt myself and others, and this is the place where I channel my frustration when it comes. By it's very nature, this board is going to a clashing of people who are here when they're angry.
Again, my intent here is to help, but the subject of Impact can really set me off. I apologize if I've hurt anyone's feelings.
I just want to know the truth about anything where it is available. A disgruntled ex- impact attendee could come here and post lies about impact to dissuade people from going there. However because of the nature of this board, if someone posted something like: "In Quest, the facilitator sacrificed a baby in front of everyone." Any of us who had been to Quest would single that line out and question it's authenticity. In a way, our questioning serves as a sort of quality control. Since Impact censors most other sources of information about them, I believe that this argumentative, somewhat flawed message board is the most accessable place to find out what is actually going on at Impact.
Damaged, your story is one that needed to be heard. I'm glad you came here, and I hope that you continue to post here.

OK, a disclaimer that applies to all of my posts, past and future: this thread is so big now, I can't remember what's been covered and what hasn't, so if it's already been talked about, let me know.

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damagedbyassociation
My wife was labeled Damaged Goods from Impact. She didn't like it, but at that point she was pretty much stuck with going along with the whole Impact belittling routine - because she sincerely thought it was going to be "good" for her.

I totally agree with Army - it is abuse - but unfortunately, everyone there is subjecting themselves to it "voluntarily."

After sharing my experience and thoughts about Impact, someone said (I think in Impact terms you'd call them my "grand-angel" or something?):
"if it was so humiliating and bad for you, why didn't you just leave. I don't feel bad for someone who only had to be there for a few days, and could have left at anytime."
Damaged put "voluntarily" in quotes for a very good reason. Impact has many ways that psychologically keep people there. Damaged already related the scene they created when he tried to leave, and that they were able to keep his wife there, too.
Here are some of the things that kept me there for as long as I stayed:
-The price
It's $500 to attend (which includes a non-refudable $150 deposit). Right before the reading of the ground rules on the first night, is the "point of no return" The facilitator announces that from that point forward there will be NO REFUNDS. It's a lot of money, and you don't want to "lose" it by leaving before you can get all that they have to offer, even if you have to endure things you don't like. In my case, a family member paid for it, so I didn't want to "waste" their money by leaving, and I didn't want to disappoint them either, which leads to...

-using attendees as free salesmen
In a normal business transaction, a person will naturally spread the word, whether it was good or bad. At impact, however, they go much further than this. They say "if you really love and care about someone, you'll encourage them to come to Impact. Also, remember, there are excuses and there are results" MOST people who are there, were referred by family members and close friends. MOST of these people trust the loved ones who referred them, and many have promised these loved ones that they will stay until the training is finished. The people who referred them were most likely sucessfully indoctrinated, and therefore weren't allowed to tell the recruit what actually happens there. Thus the recruit has only to rely on the trust and love they already have for the person that referred them. Thus, when you are being attacked during the training, you think, well this must be for my own good, because "so-and-so" would never send me somewhere harmful.

-The buddy system:
On the first night, everyone is paired with a partner. Your partner has to be someone you've never met before, and you are told to pick someone who you "wouldn't normally choose". You are asked to be responsible for your partner, but especially for making sure that the partner gets there on time. If your partner doesn't show up, you get publicly yelled at, possibly kicked out and otherwise humiliated. Most people call their partners several times the next morning, to see if they will be coming, and if not, try every avenue to convince them to come. You don't want to be responsible for getting your new acquaintance yelled at because you didn't show up, or didn't get there on time.

-fear of further embarrassment
In order to leave during the training, you have to go out a specific set of doors at the back of the room. This door is in full view of the facilitator, which most likely means you'll be subject to questioning from him first, and most likely everyone will see you get up and leave. Also, this door goes through a corridor of offices filled with staff members, who will probably also intercept you as well.

-the element of surprise
since no one is supposed to tell you what happens at Impact beforehand, you are completely taken off guard when you are there. I didn't have a chance to really think about anything, i was simply reacting.

-sleep deprivation
the training goes late into the night (I didn't usually get to sleep before 3 or 4am), requires homework, and on the last two days, you have to be there by 11am. Tiredness can severely impair judgement. It may not be until you are back on a normal sleep schedule that you realize what happened (or it may be too late by then).

I know there are more techniques employed as well, so post them if you think of them. Which ones kept any of you from leaving?

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damagedbyassociation
My wife and I have discussed the impact of Impact quite a lot at this point (if you don't know or remember my story/background on this go to page 36). She has agreed that Impact was horrible, although at our first REAL counseling session with a REAL counselor, she was still touting all of the "good" that she got from Impact, which infuriated me because when we were talking together about it earlier, she had been telling me how bad it all was with a new perspective and with deep retrospect. It has been helpful for me to get her to read many of your posts - at least the ones that stick to Impact. I don't know if I can totally believe her when she sings the same old tune and tells me again that Impact was horrible after lots and lots of talking about it, which is why I ask her to read some of these posts with me.

I know that when I first decided to leave Impact i still had a hard time getting away from the programming. I would have discussions with friends who had left and during the discussions I would see the logic, but in the quiet recesses of my own mind I really WANTED to still believe it was all true. I think a lot of that had to do with pride. I wanted to believe it was true because I didn't want to admit that I had thrown away over 5000 dollars and 4 years of my life. Some of those things I wanted to believe about impact being good still had some kind of tie with my religion and so it was really hard for me to say "it's all bad". In the end, what it finally took for me to completely step away from the philosophy was to realize that the only reason some of their teachings still seemed good was because it was necessary for them to use the good things to hook people into the manipulation and mind control. Without something reasonably appetizing to lure people in, no one would take the first bite of the poison cake Impact is serving.

I don't know if this perspective will help with your wife at all, but I offer it in the hopes that it will.

Impact is one of many Large Group Awareness Trainings. Some others include Lifespring, EST, Klemmer, Quest (so. africa), and of course Landmark. They are all very similar, and use many of the same techniques of control, humiliation and delusional teachings. Since they are so similar, I thought that this was relevant. A journalist in France went undercover to a Landmark training with a hidden camera. I found the link on another thread on this site. While there are differences, this is the closest someone can get to Seeing what happens at Impact:

[www.culthelp.info]

One of the reasons I stayed was out of sheer morbid curiosity to see what was next and what all he hype was about.

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Passionate
One of the reasons I stayed was out of sheer morbid curiosity to see what was next and what all he hype was about.

Yeah, that was definitely part of it. I hate to admit it, but Impact kind of has a "reality show effect". I hate reality shows, but sometimes I'll get stuck on one just because I'm so shocked by what's going on that I can't look away. Many people who hate the way Simon Cowell treats people continue to watch American Idol.

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Passionate
One of the reasons I stayed was out of sheer morbid curiosity to see what was next and what all he hype was about.

Oh yeah, and to see what all the hype was about. I went to a introductory night with a friend. All the graduates were so excited and happy about it. During the training, I often thought back to the happy, excited graduates, thinking that if so many other people had such a good experience, that if I just follow instructions that I would have good results as well. Unfortunately, following the directions was a very bad idea.