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Ginah, NotOneOfThem,
I choose not to provide the vivid detail you ask for for reasons mentioned in many of the previous notes in this thread, namely that I agreed to preserve the confidentiality of the weekend. I regret that it may cause you to judge me as hiding in shadow. I am being very clear and open about the experience to the degree that I believe should be shared with those who have not participated in it. I do believe that there is value in ritual and mystery of the weekend.
sonsio,
Thank you for taking the time to reply to my questions.
I will be honest and tell you that it was fairly close to my expectations when I asked them. Your answer is vague, undefined and secretive. Thus it seems to go with MKP. I know about the agreement you signed, I signed on as well, however, I righteousness guides me to tell the whole, unedited truth about my experience of the weekend.
If you go to the first few pages of this forum you will find several pages that are a fair use summary of the Training Manual used for the weekend. I've read it, I'm guessing that others such as Ginah have as well. (She has the actual manual!) So, really, not much is hidden away from the light of truth. Part of the objective of this site, as I understand it from reading many interviews with Mr. Ross (I do a lot of research as part of my work.) is to shine a bright light on the inner workings of secretive groups such as MKP. In AA, a group I am not part of, they have a saying, "Your only as sick as your secrets." I think they are right.
Reading your reply, there are several things that I found interesting and hope perhaps you can expand on them a bit, while honoring your agreement. You are, after all being asked direct questions and congruency would compel you to be forthcoming with direct full answers. Is that not part of what you were taught?
Please explain the value of "ritual and mystery" as it applies here.
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NotOneOfThem,
Regarding the bathrooms, at my facility they were real and could be used when needed, though we always did inform the staff that we would be doing so. If we wanted, we could go somewhere outside other than the bathroom. I am sure facilities across the country and the world are different.
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"Inform" a very vague word. So, in the midst of a segment you could stand up, leave the square where the event, such as questioning was taking place and leave the area, and you had to only say to a staffer "I'm using the bathroom." is that correct. (Certainly we are not over the bounds of your confidentiality.)
You may be wondering, gentle readers why I keep going back to this point of restrooms. I have observed in my own amateur way, that this is something that seems to be a good point of control for some groups. For example, Landmark education starts off their seminars by instructing those who are attending that if they "leave the room 'even for a minute' to use the restroom they will miss something important" and discourage them from leaving. (I know of 4 people who went to the Landmark "Forum" and it was a detail that all 4 of them told me about.) Restroom use is a deeply personal thing and I think any time a group regulates it in any way, it sends up a flag for me. Even in a mental hospital or ward, where just about everything a person does this is not the case except in extreme cases where a person is on suicide watch and even then, it is that they are confined to an area or being observed.
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Regaring the yelling, as I mentioned above, I saw it as role-playing. And to be honest, after the beginning, I don't recall that much of it. I personally didn't consider the yelling to be the "hostilities" as you mentioned, I considered it to be intentionally abrasive without inflicting harm (as in a football coach yelling at his players in practice), there was intent behind each man's actions.
You saw it as role-playing. At what point? You state "after the beginning, I don't recall that much of it." I take this to be an acknowledgment that yelling is par for the course as part of what the manual calls Intimidation. I understand your saying there was intent, but what? What can be done at a therapeutic level when screaming and manhandling someone? For me, it only removed my trust of them.
You know, Vince Lombardi is a personal hero of mine. He was a tough man, and he drove his players very hard. And, yes, at times, he yelled at them. Even current coaches will do that. As will a drill sergeant. One thing that I think might be of note is that in both of these cases, one knows what they are in for before the sign up. There are no secret practices, they are held right out in the open. Here in Wisconsin, the Green Bay Packers are famous for their practices, with bleachers to make viewing comfortable for those who arrive early enough. And, most everyone knows what would be expected from a Drill Sergeant.
(See [
www.culteducation.com])
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Was all this necessary? Instead of the weekend the way it was, they could have had a weekend of sitting in a big circle and chanting, but I don't think it would have had the same effect (granted, for me it was positive, for you it was negative). Why? Because this weekend is about teaching a man to face their shadow, to look within. If it were easily possible to do that within comfort zones, you would have already have done so
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True, however, other methods of looking with in, such as meditation are not kept a secret and do not operate in the shadows.
(See [
www.culteducation.com])
(Yes, I know, This site has references to Buddhist groups, and they are considered by Buddhists to be an aberration, not the norm.)
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You had an interesting comment about the search, "Perhaps for safekeeping in case something was stolen. But wait, trust! There would be no fear of anything being stolen if there was really trust." You pick apart one piece of the weekend that you observed and draw conclusions from it that could be accurate and that could just as easily inaccurate. There are reasons for the search as a specific step in the weekend, and it is not so much about trust or control but more towards safekeeping of your valuables and safety (the weekend if full of activities, and safety is similar to not wearing jewelry while playing sports). I don't disagree that part of the intent (in my opinion, I didn't read the manual either yet) is to separate the person from the worldly connections via cell phones and time (watches), but to say that is "a way to reprogram them into something else" is too large of a leap in logic for me.
Perhaps Mr. Ross would be a better authority on this, as he has dealt with a number of cults in his work, but it is merely my observations (and readings) is that one of the things that happens when one joins a cult, is that you are urged to break ties with your family, and in some cases, assume a new name. I go back to my question of why not alert people before they arrive to leave those items behind?
The site phinnweb.org/neuro/brainwash/ has an interesting article on 'brainwashing' and one of the items they list is:
17) ISOLATION - Inducing loss of reality by physical separation from family, friends, society and rational references.
To me, rational references would mean things such as ones identification items.
One of the sad things that happened with my friend M, was that he no longer felt he could associate with me because he and I did not speak the same language, I did not speak in terms of responding "Ho" as the affirmative for something a person had said. I had this experience with others who I knew that were on the weekend as staff as well, one of them was a business associate. (He was playing the music.)
My thought is that by removing your references to time by taking your watch, placing you in a room where you have no available references to time and isolation from the outside world, the person is broken open a bit. Keeping you awake for long periods of time, (the page above lists this as "11) SLEEP DEPRIVATION AND FATIGUE - Creating disorientation and vulnerability by prolonging mental an physical activity and withholding adequate rest and sleep") you are vulnerable. In AA they warn people to not become "To Angry, Lonely, Hungry or Tired" as these things may cause them to be vulnerable to partaking in drink. I think the same thing applies here.
Not such a far leap after all.
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I question the comment that the only intent of all of this is "to change the person", though I think you were very close, I think the intent is to empower the person to change themselves.
You'll have to explain to me how taking a persons possessions, putting them in a dark room to stand for 2 hours, keeping them awake for 22 hours a day is empowerment. I t[i:d9f7a5ca16]ruly[/i:d9f7a5ca16] don't understand that.
I know I'm going on a long time here, I guess I have much to say on the topic. Let me just say a few more things.
Every year, for the past 8 year I lead a Silent Retreat for the Unitarian Society where I belong. These are non-directed retreats, my job is mostly organizational. (Non-directed means that there are no lectures or other meetings where participants are pointed in a particular direction of thought or spiritual vein.) When participants arrive, we welcome them and show them to their room. We ask them to attend an orientation during which we explain meal times, how to make the most of silence and some of rules of the grounds such as a building the center asks us not to have people go into. We ask them to silence their cell phones and watches so as to not impose on those who would be bothered by them. We ask them to not speak on the grounds and designate an area where they may take conversations, if they wish.
That's it, no inspection, no demands that they hand over items. There is no need for it. No demands of silence or screaming at someone if they make a sound, Again, there is no need for it. We are adults after all.
In all the years that I have been going on (some 20 or so), or leading silent Retreats, (about 15) there has never been an item stolen. So, I don't buy the idea of the items being secured for safety reasons from that standpoint.
Before attending, each participant is sent a letter that explains what a Silent Retreat is and items to bring with them for their own enjoyment, such a paper and so on in case they wish to write or draw. It is clear what will take place and the timeline for the weekend is published. And the timeline for the weekend is when meals are served. Sleep all you like when you like. Snacks are always around. Make phone calls or even leave if you wish to.
Does this sort of thing work? Yes, very much so. I've seen men and women make life changing decisions such as to divorce or not, or start a new relationship with someone, or not or dedicating themselves to their existing one. . Changing careers or dedicating themselves to their existing one. All based on an a non-verbal, non-written agreement to be silent so that they may hear their own inner guide and not disturb those who are listening to theirs.
At the end, participants are invited to speak out of the silence and express to others in the group what their weekend was like. Some choose not to. There is no pressure to do so.
So, why then does MKP put demands on partipants?
Just a question.