Hey rorybowman, as I said before I know very little about MKP. Can you tell me a little more?
So far all I've heard about LGAT's is that they all would like others to do their courses and workshops. How is that in MKP? Are you inviting others to do a course? Do you talk with people involved in MKP about inviting others?

rorybowman:

I have not said that MKP is a "cult."

It is an LGAT (large group awareness training) or what some would call "mass marathon training."

See [www.culteducation.com]

Note the danger signs, regarding such training within the above linked paper prepared by a clinical psychologist.

FYI -- Wikipedia is not a reliable source as the link you provide demonstrates.

It includes "warining signs" from two cult apologists, James Lewis and Eileen Barker.

Note the disclaimer of Wikipedia, which discounts the validity of its contents.

But you are not here for a meaningful discussion anyway, just to defend your LGAT.

There have been very serious complaints about MKP as this thread reflects.

However, you are so devoted to MKP it's doubtful that you would ever acknowledge that the organization might be at fault.

As the MKP munual notes exceprted at the beginning of this thread demonstrate, the organization very intentionally manipulates participants in a way that is far "more sinister to me than most youth summer camps."

Based upon those notes, the complaints posted and the responses of seemingly mindless devotees such as yourself, MKP looks pretty bad.

Sure there are "waaaay weider" groups, but that doesn't make MKP any better. And attempting to blame those that were hurt by the group for their own injuries seems "weird" indeed and doesn't reflect well on the results of your training.

I would agree that mkp doesn't match up well with the cult list from wiki. but how would they do say compared to a hobby club such as a bird watching club with this list of lgat characteristics

Characteristics and similarities


By Russ Wise







1. Almost no information available on the seminar itself.



2. All information is held tightly by staff.



3. The trainer is often an untrained or unlicensed therapist/counselor.



4. The seminar is developed over three weekends.



5. The second weekend is usually stretched into five days.



6. Sessions are generally marathons in length. Often lasting upwards of twelve hours daily.



7. Abusive language is used against the trainees.



8. Psychological games are played to re-orient the trainee.



9. Emotional stress always plays a part in the seminar.



10. Emotional pain is revisited and often redefined.



11. Peer pressure is used in a highly effective manner.



12. The sense of individuality is diminished.



13. Group identification and conformity is encouraged.



14. Guilt is introduced at varying levels.



15. The destabilization of one’s sense of self.



16. Group dependency (on the organization) is encouraged and desired.



17. Subtle manipulation is used to bring conformity to the group.



18. The individual is given no opportunity for reflection on what he or she has been exposed to.



19. You are responsible for everything that has ever happened to you, either positive or negative.



20. The individual is confronted with psychological and emotional issues that overload their ability to manage it.



21. There are without exception a number of individuals who have suffered psychological distress as a result of these seminars

Dr. Cushman's article is pretty specific and focuses on my main point that people "who had ego-function difficulties and severe characterological problems" should stay away from all sorts of things. These would be among the "brittle" people I would discourage from MKP (or Amway or hallucinogenic drugs, the Society for Creative Anachronism or too much science fiction, for that matter). The basic MKP model of a single-weekend NWTA with an optional follow-up group certainly doesn't match the 21 points noted above.

Someone arlier in the thread someone had posted a link to some sort of academic paper on MKP which said that of those who attend the (single-weekend) NWTA only about half attend the follow-up groups. Of those who attend the follow-up groups, only about half stay involved for an average of 2-3 years. That doesn't sound like dependency to me.

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Europe-girl
So far all I've heard about LGAT's is that they all would like others to do their courses and workshops. How is that in MKP? Are you inviting others to do a course? Do you talk with people involved in MKP about inviting others?

As with many organizations, I'm sure there are evangelical types within MKP and doctrinaire true believers who try to justify their own choices by convincing others to join up or take part, as there are people here who try to warn people away from MKP because they've heard bad things or feel it has threatened their marriage. Unlike MLM programs, fitness gyms and many churches, though, I'm not aware of any incentive program to encourage "recruitment."

It is ABSOLUTELY inappropriate to suggest a subordinate at work attend church or any other sort of spiritual program, and it annoys me that such things happen. To my mind that is right next door to extortion and sexual harassment, and most good companies have policies explicitly forbidding such things.

Do some marriages end after a man attends MKP? Certainly. Did any particular marriage end because some man attended MKP? Perhaps. Was that a "good marriage" by my standards? I doub it, but since they are not my marriages I don't get a vote on that. If approximately half of all marriages end in divorce and the other half end in death, what does any of that have to do with MKP?

If any woman wants to tell her husband that his attendance at MKP is grounds for divorce, that is her decision, and I absolutely support her in that (as do the divorce laws). Whatever floats your boat.

I wish I shared everyone's optimistic belief in the universal goodness of Christian ministers and all mental health professionals, but I don't. Human beings are flawed and so are all organizations.

But rorybowman, you didn't answer my questions...
Are you inviting people? Do you talk with people inside MKP about inviting people?

rorybowman:

Based upon the MKP manual notes excerpted at the beginning of this thread, MKP does seem to match most of the 21 criteria previously listed.

You wish to dismiss this, but the notes confirm it.

[b:446bdc16f0]MKP also appears to have the following attributes:[/b:446bdc16f0]

They lack adequate participant-selection criteria.

They lack reliable norms, supervision, and adequate training for leaders.

They lack clearly defined responsibility.

They sometimes foster pseudoauthenticity and pseudoreality.

They sometimes foster inappropriate patterns of relationships.

They sometimes ignore the necessity and utility of ego defenses.

They sometimes teach the covert value of total exposure instead of valuing personal differences.

They sometimes foster impulsive personality styles and behavioral strategies.

They sometimes devalue critical thinking in favor of "experiencing" without self-analysis or reflection.

They sometimes ignore stated goals, misrepresent their actual techniques, and obfuscate their real agenda.

They sometimes focus too much on structural self-awareness techniques and misplace the goal of democratic education; as a result participants may learn more about themselves and less about group process.

They pay inadequate attention to decisions regarding time limitations. This may lead to increased pressure on some participants to unconsciously "fabricate" a cure.

They fail to adequately consider the "psychonoxious" or deleterious effects of group participation (or] adverse countertransference reactions.

[b:446bdc16f0]And based upon your posts and others that have come to this message board to support and defend MKP it seems all four danger signs would also largely apply as demonstrated by MKP followers as well as leaders.[/b:446bdc16f0]

Leaders had rigid, unbending beliefs about what participants should experience and believe, how they should behave in the group. and when they should change.

Leaders had no sense of differential diagnosis and assessment skills, valued cathartic emotional breakthroughs as the ultimate therapeutic experience, and sadistically pressed to create or force a breakthrough in every participant.

Leaders had an evangelical system of belief that was the one single pathway to salvation.

Leaders were true believers and sealed their doctrine off from discomforting data or disquieting results and tended to discount a poor result by, "blaming the victim."

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Europe-girl
But rorybowman, you didn't answer my questions...
Are you inviting people? Do you talk with people inside MKP about inviting people?

No to both counts. I'm sure there are people who do, but I see less emphasis on recruitment in MKP than I do in other organizations I am part of: my fitness gym, a local food co-op, a computer user group, a professional organization. I have mentioned to some people that I have found it useful in my own life, but in the same way I might mention I found it was useful to cut down on caffeine in the afternoon or to see a chiropractor after a car accident.

I don't doubt that there are evangelical true believers who get a lot more excited about MKP than I do (just as there are people who are very excited about chiropracty or believe high fructose corn syrup is the root of all evil) but I have not seen them.

Once I reach ten posts I understand that Mr. Ross will grant me insider privileges to receive private messages (assuming I last so long) but I don't see that the quiet, personal work of MKP lends itself to such hype anymore than similar support groups such as AA or a group for bicycle enthusiasts does.

I found value there but doubt it is the best thing for most people, and certainly would not suggest it to everyone. That just strikes me as invasive and inappropriate and a bit creepy. If I ever mention MKP to anyone, it is in the same sort of context where I might mention that they should really write a will or a formal business plan for their small business. It just doesn't come up much.

Hello, all. I am a participant in MKP activities. I am not an official spokesman. I find this debate and discussion fascinating. I have read the majority of the posts, primariily the early ones up through the posting of the excerpted training materials and the most recent ones.

Before I went to the New Warrior Training Adventure, I was aware that it had some of the aspects of a LGAT. Now that I have been through it, I agree that it does have some of the aspects.

The gist of the criticism of the program that I see on this list is: 1. the training uses techniques that are the same as or very similar to techniques known to have been successfully used for brainwashing and mind control; 2. the organization appears to bear some similarities to other organizations that use similar techniques; 3. it is possible for these techniques and organizational structures to be used to harm people; 4. some people have been harmed by their participation in the NWTA. Therefore, the argument concludes, men should be wary about and/or simply choose not to participate in this group.

Is this the gist of it? Is there something I am overlooking here?

Gary

garya:

Not quite.

Note the liabilities and danger signs posted and add those to concerns expressed.

Also, the scripted instructions that detail how to manipulate participants are disturbing.

You said,

Quote

"some of the aspects of a LGAT"

However, MKP actually has all of the aspects of an LGAT, because it is an LGAT.

You say,

Quote

"very similar to techniques known to have been successfully used for brainwashing and mind control"

See [www.culteducation.com]

[b:917d303e1d]The key factors that distinguish coercive persuasion from other training and socialization schemes are:[/b:917d303e1d]

The reliance on intense interpersonal and psychological attack to destabilize an individual's sense of self to promote compliance

The use of an organized peer group

Applying interpersonal pressure to promote conformity

The manipulation of the totality of the person's social environment to stabilize behavior once modified

The manual notes and comments of participants easily match this.

See [board.culteducation.com]

rorybowman:

You don't wish to "see" anything, much like other active LGAT participants that come to this board, that are not really here discuss anything, but rather to defend their group, attack and/or dismiss any ciriticism.

The private messaging system was repeatedly abused by such people.

Previously, members could use it immediately, but after spamming with flaming messages, etc. that policy was changed.